the hate speech thing is so OLD KevDude - I havent brought anything up on that in weeks. Yes, because of VSD AND the not well written dox rules, I thought doxxing was illegal. NOT THAT BAD OF A MISTAKE ACTUALLY. Most people think doxxing is illegal. So drop it, I don't censor. But I didn't want to see a woman doxxed, called and harrassed so call me guilty.
Edit: I thought ALL doxxing was illegal. Like anybody would normally assume..
BTW- As I asked further up in this thread, it all comes down to
who is in charge KevDude, or VSD? Right?
So if you are in charge, your rules. Right? BUT we are led to believe here that VSD is the big cheese, that HE makes the rules, and today he misled with his own statements. You saw them further up the thread - he wants HIS STANDARDS enforced and he defined them. So you can't tell me that you are angry/violent/ whatever towards me for the misunderstanding he creates. He wades in and says the things that caused this. I DIDN'T report that second incident because I had accepted that you guys would not take that first doxxing/harrassment post down. So this could all be avoided if he didn't ascend from above and make false statements on this forum, if they are indeed false.
So how about putting the blame where it is due in his direction if indeed KevDude trumps VSD.
I don't advocate censorship in the comments - know that. Lost cause.
But you guys allowing doxxing the public and harrassment posts? Ha - believe me I get that voat is not a good fit for me. Or for pizzagate it turns out.
you have to realize there are some things new people don't automatically know. VSD only owns PG subverse, not all of voat for one. So I edited that above- obviously limiting doxxing/harrassment isn't better for voat in terms of how the site was set up and the original people that have been on the site want it to function as a total free speech forum. . .
Nah,thanks anyway. If stopping doxxing and calling for phone harrassment and etc of the public on PG subverse fails, it fails. My real argument was with the hypocrisy I percieved in VSD, who was acting very sure that his standards of no doxxing were being enforced, when I could clearly prove they weren't. You think I expected him to see my argument? HA. If you were threatening me lol I don't pay much attention to your flaccid theatrics. good ting you pointed it out. Anyway, you do your thing, I'll do mine. I don't hold on to grudges. Tata.
"The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work. Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted."
This is a violation of rules 1 (not directly related to pizzagate) and 4 (no meta/concern posts) this is not the subverse for non-investigation posts. This post will be removed.
The different subverses in a pizzagate network is a good idea, imo. But there is no consistency in enforcing it. Recent examples: Is GirlLover symbol found in scene of TV show "Lucifer directly related to pizzagate? Or WEBKINZ and Disney's CLUB PENGUIN: perfect digital hunting grounds for pedophiles? The Podesta Brothers Revealed to be in Portugal the Day of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance hung out as the top post for like a day before an accuracy in question flair was added. It is an old story, been posted before, and uses a totally unverified source. This is a good, thoughtful post. But no evidence is presented, it's kind of just some free thoughts on pizzagate. Did it belong in the main sub, or vpizzagatewhatever?
So it's understandable that people get confused and pissed. If the main thread can get cluttered with that stuff, would it hurt to make a flair for mod concerns, or something? Until it's cleared up, at least?
I do think keeping direct, investigative posts, and random un- or semi-related posts separate is good. But, "got a problem, take it elsewhere!" seems to be a problem. If the problem with a mod is unfounded, it will get downvoted to oblivion.
Edit: all sorts of formatting issues. @Phobos_Mothership@ThePuppetShow
I'm going to voice a tentative yes. I do approve of the job that the mods do and I think they work hard and are fantastic. I also, however, believe that we should be able to have meta discussions from time to time. The other PG subs just aren't populated enough.
Reasoning:
It's hard enough to keep up with the flood of posts coming in and all the requests for intervention.
Complaints about moderation in the main sub is an easy step to facilitate drama, distractions and forum slide.
Complaints in the main sub are also a technique used to create tension and division amongst moderation teams for the purpose of instilling take over shills.
Creating methods of increasing moderator burnout is also a goal of infiltrators and disruptors, making this job so hard that people quit is the fast way to gain control of a sub.
this is like your state legislators sending you to another, way smaller, state to complain about them
False analogy, by reasoning that the best way to get the attention of the moderator team in a public, open and transparent manner is to call them out in a sub that is populated by an audience that specifically wants to pay attention to those topics.
It's like being told to leave a state full of people of mixed interests to go to a state full of people specifically interested in what you have to say.
Subscriber counts don't equate to much when the context of why someone subscribes.
__
I'm assuming other mods are deliberating on whether deleting this post is a good idea.
For now I propose leaving it up, but subsequent threads that incite drama or distraction be removed with a request for submission in the appropriate verse.
There may be value in a 'drama day' where posts like this are permitted, but would take a concerted effort of the mod team to facilitate and manage.
I sent the info to Millen Falcon, Vindicator, gophuckyourself, and wecanhelp
I received replies back over the next hours saying no one could figure out what to do, and gophuckyourself didn't want to "go rogue", and finally that KevDude made the decision to leave that woman's info up under the OP's stated wish to get 100x to call and ask questions daily and "ruin their lives for a bit."
Here is the comment for readers here - " AgainstTheNWO 2 points (+4|-2) 5 days ago
Why, do you not think they know that we know? Calling and talking is free ** I do not understand why it would be a bad idea if 100th keep calling them and ask them questions day in day out. Ruin their lives for a bit.** This can just be a question you ask, record and if there is or is not a answer place on www."
Ball now in your court. Let me guess, I'm wrong, it's all fine. I'm out of line, etc...
Since you are like the king mod, I have a question. Will you guys change this rule if/when the community decides they want it changed?
BTW I forgot about the ad hominem "drama" label and gave you the upvote I promised. This isn't about drama, this is about a real concern for the moderation in this community.
Will you guys change this rule if/when the community decides they want it changed?
Yes.
the community decides
Key factor, the community must be a clear majority, not 5 or 6 members on a single thread.
For this to be effective a full post with the proposed rule change written/edited within that thread.
This isn't about drama, this is about a real concern for the moderation in this community.
I do understand that is your perspective and understanding of this.
I request you consider the position of others, 'drama' is thrown around easily as a dismissal of issues, but it is also an issue when people simply start constantly screeching in a forum and drive others away who don't want to see drama everyday.
I've never complained about a thread of mine getting deleted, before today and I expected that to get deleted. This one too, thanks for at least listening and not just deleting it. I've complained about other peoples threads getting deleted a few times because they had good info in them that need more connections. I've been here since r/pizzagate closed, so I don't feel at all like I'm the drama starter you're accusing me of being. I think a majority of the community feels this way or I would have never suggested it. We shall see.
I don't feel at all like I'm the drama starter you're accusing me of being
If I accuse you of a thing it will be direct and clear.
I'm not accusing you of drama, I am expressing concern over others using this as an excuse to cause drama.
For this to be effective a full post with the proposed rule change written/edited within that thread.
I know you're already against it but posting it in the requested sub is probably the best way forward at this time.
After, if the rule changes threads like this won't get deleted.
i made a similar post y'day about the mods deleting posts that arent investigative but are important awareness raisers/promotions/protesting
as a community, we have enough evidence. We had enough 2 months ago - maybe not enough for convictions, but that's not our job, that's the FBI's. Do we have enough evidence to demonstrate that the FBI may be seriously risking public safety should they fail to act. Unequivocally.
So for me promotion / protest / dissemination is more important than further citizen investigation
and yet a promotion only sub will get shut down by the mods and recommended pizzagatewhatever with its pittance of subscribers
I see always a reason for removing posted by a mod. I personally have no problems with the mods. Now i mostly only reading and try to keep up while also have a life. I do understand that when is a lot of time in a topic and it is getting removed it will be a fucked up feeling, but the rules are not realy unreasonable and i for one should more often visit one of the subverse.
you have no reason because you dox a woman and call for phone harrassment and "making lives miserable" and that should have been removed, but was not- so yeah, you and the mods are close no doubt.
You are quite suspect in my book. That you are just fine with the mods is no big surprise. You and Devious3 or whatever show up together to buddy shill as well.
If you read my comments you already could find out who i am. But to get over this. Here, this is me. https://twitter.com/raklijnstra Because i have other view on something does not make me a shill. Constantly telling someone is a shill could be......
Out of my head does Devious3 not ring a bell (like your name) so most likely you just imagine stuff.
My beef isn't removed shit posts, it's not being able to discuss why the posts were removed. So, if a mod makes a "mistake" and deletes an important thread, we have no recourse. We are currently told to go talk to the forum with less than 250 members and posts with 10-20 views. Ive personally seen some good threads get deleted for not directly tying to pizzagate. That's what an investigation is all about. Not everything is going to have an immediate tie to pizzagate, that's what we're here doing. Trying to tie things to pizzagate to form a mass of circumstantial evidence large enough to force an investigation.
I really need a yes or no answer. I would assume you're a no. But, like I told someone else, I don't want to make assumptions. Reguardless, you got an upvote for participating, thank you.
But the post is still online, just not in in headlines and no comments possible.
This one is at least for one example. You can find them to go to your comments/postings, but maybe some are completely missing, if not, i do not really see a problem atm.
You clearly have no insight into how much shitposting and rule violation happens in new submissions. The current number of mods is still not enough to cover 24 hours each day. Before throwing out ideas like this, it might be worthwhile to conduct a reality check. For example, you could volunteer 3-4 hours of your time to watch /new, and then you tell us what percentage of new submissions need moderator action of some sort. Judging by your current optimism, I promise you you'll be surprised.
The post you've linked to has not been removed. I sincerely believe that if we change rule 4 to allow mod-related posts on /v/pizzagate, this sub will go to shit, flooded with the whining and complaints of the people whose submissions we've removed for any kind of rule violation. I would say every third removal results in complaints even though they indeed violate submission requirements. If we allow all that on this sub, it is over for this sub. Hence the request for everybody to subscribe to /v/pizzagatemods, and take these there, so that the investigative content doesn't get lost in the noise. The community made no effort to subscribe to /v/pizzagatemods, and now the community is complaining that there's nobody on /v/pizzagatemods. In my opinion, the proposed change of rule 4 is not the solution to this problem.
Both of the threads linked were deleted. It's impossible to organize anything or present anything without concrete evidence and this is hindering this investigation badly.
@Letsdoit edited the link in their comment I was replying to. The original link pointed recursively to this post of yours, which, at the time of me writing my comment, was not deleted.
It's impossible to organize anything or present anything without concrete evidence and this is hindering this investigation badly.
It is not. If you have the slightest demonstrable base for claiming a connection to Pizzagate, and you do spell out that connection explicitly, your submission will not be pulled. It is either a failure of post authors to do so, or the actual lack of said connecting dot that gets posts removed. In both of those cases, /v/pizzagatewhatever is still an option, and no, it's not a good argument that /v/pizzagatewhatever doesn't have enough subs. It is up to the community to decide whether they subscribe to a subverse or not. When they don't, they implicitly express their thoughts about the contents of the given sub. If the community doesn't want to subscribe to /v/pizzagatewhatever, why would they want to see the same content on /v/pizzagate from now on?
What's so hard to understand about all my replies addressing this already?
There are submission rules we need to enforce.
The submission rules have been vetted and accepted by the same community you're trying to act on behalf of.
The low number of subscribers in another subverse is the direct result of the kind and quality of the various contents that belong there. If the community is that uninterested in this kind of content, why would we let you shove down the throats of 10000+ people what they're clearly not interested in by changing a rule that has been vetted and accepted by the exact same 10000+ people?
Bullshit, the rules were created by a minority of the members, I'm questioning now how many were just alt accounts of mods.
Can you smell the crap coming out of your mouth? People dont go to the other sub because you guys predetermined in the rules that's where all the unrelated shit goes. Why would people subscribe? Now youre using the rules against everyone in the community. "Go post this call for protest where nobody will see it."
Fine, continue to believe you "see thrugh the bullshit" then if that makes you sleep better. The rules are a result of trolls, shills, and legit individuals with no sense for what is a proper investigative submission posting content that, if allowed without the filter of sourced, investigative content for just three days, will kill the subverse, and then you can complain about not having a place to discuss proper leads and sourced findings either. If you're so sure that 10000+ people would want to see the kind of content you want to see, there is nothing stopping you in setting up a subverse yourself, or a board somewhere outside of Voat, or an own website on your own servers, and see how many are interested in a board with no moderation rules to guarantee that only sourced, investigative content gets out. This subverse has been an investigative subverse from the beginning, and we aim to keep it that way. That is not up for debate. If the 10000+ subscribers weren't into the way things work on here, they would have abandoned the sub by now. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case. It is a loud minority that seems to complain about moderation on here, and it may or may not largely overlap with the group that is continually incapable of posting something worthwhile that actually furthers the investigation.
This is all the capacity I've had to debate about this, so I'm done after this comment. You may open a discussion on /v/pizzagatemods if you want further input from other people.
I'm not arguing to let the sub run free, I'm arguing so the community has recourse when we think something has been deleted unjustly. We have none now and you guys obviously would like to keep it that way. Quit twisting what I said in the thread to include letting shit posts stand.
You're simultaneously arguing for more mod transparency, and a license to post non-investigative content if you see it as important. I'm directly responding to a comment of yours that talks about the latter.
Now youre using the rules against everyone in the community. "Go post this call for protest where nobody will see it."
I really can't keep helping you remember what you said five minutes ago. And I'm really done debating about this.
I'm arguing that problems with moderation in v/pizzagate should be handled in v/pizzagate. If it comes down to the COMMUNITY (not me) deciding you guys were wrong for deleting a post, than so be it. Keep trying to spin it to what you want to believe though, it's rather entertaining and telling.
This was direclty related to this sub, even Victor said to leave it and it was still deleted. It's nothing but blatant censorship, fuck what the community wants. We havr to get community approvam to change the rules, but only 200 of the 10000 are availabe at the other sub. It's a catch 22, we lose.
For what it's worth, I would have left it up. I don't agree with the proposal at all, and I don't think it would lead anywhere, and I do think the submission was in violation of rule 4, but because of the traction it has gained, I would have left it up at least until there's a verdict. But the moderator who removed the post was not wrong to do so, per a current submission rule that is in effect and has been vetted and accepted by the same community, just a few weeks ago. It is our job to enforce these rules on behalf of the community, and as long as there isn't a new one accepted, there will always be a mod to remove these proposals.
That is simply untrue. Isn't it interesting how top researchers can always comply with submission rules? They're not so hard to comply with, it's just that most post authors do not make the slightest effort. When we see that an effort has been made, even if we delete a post we try and give suggestions as to what could be changed to fit the rules of the subverse. If nothing can be done, we still tend to recommend another subverse within the network.
This vote will make their actions more visible to the entire community. By your comment I would assume you're a yes, but I don't want to make assumptions...
Yes, change please, and we need to leave, seriously just a thread on any other forum would be much better than this abusive crap and being totally neglected by mods whose reason has clearly deserted them, even down to doxxing left up. I've never heard of any mods anywhere being fine with doxxing, violence, vigilante justice and calls for harrassment like they are for this forum.
Anyway upvoted too.
C'mon NO people - looking forward to seeing you : D
being fine with doxxing, violence, vigilante justice and calls for harrassment like they are for this forum
just because no one wants to adhere to your particular brand of censorship doesn't mean they advocate the opposite
As always, find a post that advocates those things, report it so it can be removed.
If you find a comment that 'doxxes' report it it will be removed.
If you find a comment that advocates "violence, vigilante justice and calls for harrassment" refute/downvote/ignore/troll - but the standing rules are comments do not get deleted unless they violate a rule.
Yes it can be upsetting for some to read comments that offend their sensibilities, but unfortunately, if we delete commentets that obviously inciting we get branded shills and killing free speech.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
and we need to leave
I was unaware that there were systems in place forcing you to be here......
In this thread, KevDude says "Doxxing is defined as information that is not public or information on a user"
VictorSteinerDavion says this in this thread in a reply to me -
"The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work. Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted."
So is KevDude in charge? Or VSD?
Also, it used to be against the rules to do ANY doxing on this forum, but KevDude evidently rewrote the rules specifically to allow doxing outside of the forum. Why? There used to be a rule against Violence as well, gone. Why?
I am not talking about that old argument about bigotry, hate speech etc...this is specifically about anti-doxxing and anti-violence, the last bastions of a reasonable forum.
considering kevude is not on the mod list, this one falls to me and @crensch
I've stated my position in previous comments and I'll communicate this to crensch so we can re-re-draft a rule to match the standard I have set and expect to be enforced.
For future reference, this rule change will only deal with the topic of editing the rules in regards to publishing information that identifies people, and any posts and comments that advocate, encourage or insinuate physical actions.
I feel a sense of relief that at least this standard is going to be upheld, and I hope you are in the end glad as well- having your standards enforced can only be good for you so I hope you look at my absolute attention to not having this forum degrade into an outpost for harrassment and a tool for false flag shills as ultimately a positive thing.
I appreciate your calm under my fire as well, I suppose I may owe you a personal apology. If you care to have it then it is yours.
Now I have 1 last question - would this comment https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1586134/7736059 be deleted under your dox rules rewrite? - when it was put up it bothered me, because it seems to be asking people to go to a farm, which was doxed just above it at the time in this comment https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1586134/7736894, and poke around, try to get evidence. I didn't report it because the lack of action on the real estate agents comment had a dampening effect on the belief that rules would be enforced. As you said "comments that advocate...physical actions" I'd like to submit this comment for deletion. Actually dangerous statements like this are fairly rare, so I don't think this is going to cause a flood of work for our poor, martyred Crensch.
Sorry, you've lost me there. Not following what you're saying, so I'll respond with my own thoughts, but please clarify your position.
I'm of the mind that the people here need to be responsible for their own NetSec, and only non-public information is considered doxxing, while public info is a freeforall. Not because that's how I want it, but because of the backlash from the older goats that would destroy us for changing it.
because of the backlash from the older goats that would destroy us for changing it.
As an old goat, they can destroy me all they want.
The reason I said public information should be included in the definition is to deal with the case when someone calls for the harassment of "specific individual/group of individuals" at this "public address/number"
Posting public information with the intent to create nuisance and cause harm in the same way people do "SWATTing" is something I don't want this community to be accused of.
Posting of public information as a matter of fact and evidence for the record is safe as it is a simple fact without the threat of violence.
What I'm trying to do is craft a rule that permits the posting of public information as evidence, but removes the problem of people that want to cause violent actions by misusing the ability to post public information.
Allowing for violent actions thought this is a way outside forces can discredit the work done by this community.
As you and I are the owner mods I want to make sure we agree to even make this distinction, and then craft a rule if we do agree.
The reason I said public information should be included in the definition is to deal with the case when someone calls for the harassment of "specific individual/group of individuals" at this "public address/number"
That can be dealt with either by the authorities, the admins, or by having better NetSec. We can't protect everyone, and attempting to do so is a fool's errand.
Posting public information with the intent to create nuisance and cause harm in the same way people do "SWATTing" is something I don't want this community to be accused of.
It's not something the community cares about enough to make a rule, apparently. We just got through having the community discussion on the rules - it's not up to us to change them.
Posting of public information as a matter of fact and evidence for the record is safe as it is a simple fact without the threat of violence.
A threat of violence can be dealt with by police or other authorities.
What I'm trying to do is craft a rule that permits the posting of public information as evidence, but removes the problem of people that want to cause violent actions by misusing the ability to post public information.
That information can be posted anywhere on this site. Restricting it here is just silly.
Allowing for violent actions thought this is a way outside forces can discredit the work done by this community.
You can't operate by making a rule for every way this place can be discredited. They'll just keep bringing up shit for you to make more rules about.
As you and I are the owner mods I want to make sure we agree to even make this distinction, and then craft a rule if we do agree.
I don't. I've taken the bait on this before, ask @kevdude. I thought we needed to craft some rules to protect against violence before when everything was in upheaval. Through the discussions about it we found that it wouldn't work, and just looked like useless virtue signalling.
People are going to use information how they want to use it. Real threats can be dealt with by authorities.
Our job - our only job - is to make this place viable to post investigation information.
Edit:
Sorry, it just occurred to me that this rule would look something like a restriction of guns to prevent violence. (see Chicago and D.C.)
I sent the info to Millen Falcon, Vindicator, gophuckyourself, and wecanhelp
I received replies back over the next hours saying no one could figure out what to do, and gophuckyourself didn't want to "go rogue", and finally that KevDude made the decision to leave that woman's info up under the OP's stated wish to get 100x to call and ask questions daily and "ruin their lives for a bit."
Here is the comment for readers here - " AgainstTheNWO 2 points (+4|-2) 5 days ago
Why, do you not think they know that we know? Calling and talking is free ** I do not understand why it would be a bad idea if 100th keep calling them and ask them questions day in day out. Ruin their lives for a bit.** This can just be a question you ask, record and if there is or is not a answer place on www."
Ball now in your court. Let me guess, I'm wrong, it's all fine. I'm out of line, etc...
This has been going on for days, where are you when you are needed? I have plenty of proof of all of it, I don't waste my time or mods time with BS.
The other day there was a comment left up for HOURS that specifically called for phone harrassment and making life miserable for the real estate agent involved in the podesta email. Her office and phone are available as a public business, but she is a private person, not a politician or restauranteur even. AND the post specifically called for harrassing her and pointed right at her info.
There was a "debate"about it among the mods but ultimately KevDude decided that that woman deserved to have her info up and the call for harrassment comment was never every even addressed. It is all in my PM to mods and my history.
That is just one example ONE. We are sick of your self righteous BS about "just because you don't want people doxxed doesn't mean we shouldn't dox her..or whatever your latest way to put it is... Replying to you -
NO IT IS NOT REMOVED WHEN REPORTED. I provided exact proof. The proof was never disputed by THREE MODS. Vindicator said he tried. and the other one, justsomething or other, wrote and told me he didn't want to go "rogue".
This shit is BS. Stop pretending to have some kind of high road running up your bum.
The rules are no contact details, whether public or otherwise.
We are sick of your self righteous BS about
Proper results require proper conduct. Insults simply reduce my will to help.
Stop pretending to have some kind of high road running up your bum.
You point out that you want harassment etc censored, yet you fall to petty insults.
This does not make me more amenable to your cause.
edit:
where are you when you are needed?
I have many things that demand my attention. Unfortunately I'm not always able to sit on internet forums and monitor them constantly.
The way around that is to message or ping me when things need to be brought to my attention.
The downside is sometimes I won't respond quick enough in some cases, but I will respond.
VSD- Unfortunately, the matter I brought to your attention has not been allowed to rest. KevDude is making it clear to me that once he and Crensch talk to you, everything you decided earlier will change, Those comments weren't harrassment/doxxing, there will be no editing of rules, and what you say are your standards are apparently of no consequence whatsoever according to Kevdude anyway..
This stuff is really ridiculous, confusing and a time waster for all of us. Who is actually in charge of voat pizzagate? Do you have the final say, or is it KevDude - because he comes down on me pretty hard for what you asked me to report to you so that you could "eliminate it immediately", as per your own comment earlier up on this thread.
It is important for all of us to know - does this forum allow doxxing and harrassment like that which I proved earlier after all? and ultimately, who is the authority here?
BTW- KevDude also enjoyed telling me someone should find me and knock out my teeth. Do you really think voat is the place to be for people who actually care about children? Considering the magnitude of what this controversial topic is about, maybe you should entirely rethink bedding down something as polarizing as pizzagate at a place that allows doxxing as most people define it, harrassment, calls for physical action, hate speech, anti-semitism, bigotry and all the rest. Maybe not such a good fit? Please think about it.
I'm being poetic, and describing the facts as well.
What I am talking about is a clear violation of your so called rules by mods. We experience it daily.
I will TAKE THE TIME to get all the background for you, and then I expect that if I do that, there is going to be some kind of recourse to the mod that allowed the doxxing to stay, right? It was a "higher up" that made the determination, and it was KevDude. So Right? What is the recourse? Or are you having me go and prove this to you so you can continue to mock and ignore your own rules?
EDIt: as i recall, they said only doxxing of people on the forum wasn't allowed, is that true? Because if that is true, that's a shit rule. So my links are below.
there is going to be some kind of recourse to the mod that allowed the doxxing to stay, right?
Mods are held to a much higher standard and the first step is pointing out the error and ensuring the mistake is understood.
This will be my first step of 'recourse'.
Repeat violation will result in more stern actions.
Or are you having me go and prove this to you so you can continue to mock and ignore your own rules?
If you want me to help you, be more observant of how your communication may harm your cause.
only doxxing of people on the forum wasn't allowed, is that true?
It's hard to articulate this one, as there are a bunch of annoying edge cases that can be ambiguous.
The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work.
Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted.
But what do we do when someone finds direct evidence of a specific location that is key in the discussion?
That would violate the rule, but also censor the investigation.
It's difficult to delineate between the issues and not fall foul of one problem or another.
Maybe wording like: "Posting the contact details of a private individual are not permitted, Posting the contact details of an individual at a workplace for the purposes of incitement to harass are not permitted."
Posting the street address of a location involved in child trafficking and abuse could be considered 'doxxing' but is possibly also necessary to communicate a link to others investigating.
I'm actually against posting publicly available location information for private individuals as it can often be turned into a method for claiming all kinds of information is 'public' and justifying the actions.
Figuring out this can sometimes take time and be very frustrating.
Please continue to give your input and perspective on this issue as I do feel it needs a concrete, no equivocating statement from the mods.
I will discuss this with @KevDude after reading your links and I will get back to you with the results of that discussion.
ok. I wil say this. I am and have acted out - angry- at you. You probably didn't have any idea it was coming and it felt wrong to you. I understand that. I'm not sorry, but I feel you deserve an explanation. When you are experiencing this stuff it builds up after awhile, then obviously it kind of explodes. Your mods do whatever they want whenever they want and you suddenly showing up acting like a parent who knows what's what seems hypocritical to me. Anyway it may or may not be, Idc. Just giving you context for my reaction.
There are other problems as well. If you genuinely want to clean this place up it is time because you will have an exit on your hands soon. When a place becomes unusable, there is no other choice. The spam nothing posts are not taken down even after numerous calls for it, we don't have more votes than the shills, turns out, so that doesn't work. It's way beyond just that doxxing problem, when I say tolerance of vigilante justice, violence and etc. I am not joking. Did you see that those rules were taken away in the forum rules rewrite? Thanks to KevDude. WTF? why would that ever be taken away from any forum's rules? Anyway, hope you have some understanding of where I am coming from.
KevDude is no longer on the mod list.
There is nothing that can be added to that could be considered recourse.
you suddenly showing up acting like a parent who knows what's what seems hypocritical to me
This is part of the issue I have with my limited time, it can seem like that to the outside observer.
When discussing this with kingkongwaswrong my position was explicitly not one of constant direct involvement. I just don't have the time.
My involvement was to ensure there was no way a take over could happen because I have the ability to de-mod people.
When I am active in the sub my aim is to encourage the community to self manage, as it is the communities responsibility to itself.
I'm not a parent, guide or guardian, I am simply the thin line between those that want to subvert this sub and the community.
you will have an exit on your hands soon.
Then I will know people care more about whatever agenda they have than they do about stopping the pervasive, systematized, commercialized sexual exploitation of children by the elite and powerful of this planet.
If that happens, I will continue my own actions with my own resources, as I have been doing long before this forum existed.
Here is a copy of messages sent to me
1. over hours - this was not a quick - oops mistake decision
2. KevDude was specifically telling the other mods what to do on pizzagate forum
3. the mods promised changes in the rules - no change
4. they try to make the argument that OUR FORUM isn't specific about doxing people outside the forum. Really incredible.
sorry it is not a perfect document, i don't have time to do that for you now. It's all in my PM under my name here anyway.
Vindicator > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 5:59:47 AM
doxxing thread
That would be Kevdude. And he would not let us delete. I will get demodded if I "over-moderate". It's considered censorship. Everything shared was public information, so it's technically not doxing. I tried, though.
reply source delete
Vindicator > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 1:04:36 AM
doxxing thread
We are discussing the appropriate response now. Mods want to take down. Waiting to hear from Voat higher-ups.
reply source delete
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:26:34 AM
doxxing thread
It is going to be getting taken down we're just getting secondary blarg for it as I'm a bit worn out from arguing about the ama thing right now. Wecanhelp will be taking care of it.
reply source delete
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:24:16 AM
doxxing submission
It is not explicit enough, it only mentions doxxing against Voat subscribers. We're probably going to extend that with "or private citizens", and remove the post. I'm waiting for one more confirmation on this. Transparency within the mod team is important, I'm not going to go rogue with this.
reply source delete
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:14:07 AM
doxxing submission
Thanks for these reports, I think you may be onto something with this. I'm actively trying to push some action on this, unfortunately most of our mods are temporarily away right now, and adding to the rules is always a more significant decision where it's best more of us weigh in.
reply source delete
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:13:22 AM
doxxing thread
possible sidebar change incoming adding private citizens to the doxx claus. We want someone else to weigh in before we do so tho.
reply source delete
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:03:13 AM
doxxing submission
We're discussing this right now, and will likely add a word about private citizen in the rules as well as remove either some comments or the entire submission. Give us a few minutes.
reply source delete
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/18/2017 11:53:50 PM
doxxing thread
Let's get down to what is important - KevDude may not be on the mod list but I was told by TWO mods that they couldn't make a decision and had to go to a "higher up". I asked who it was and was specifically told it was KevDude. This was all done on PM and it is in my account.
Now, I really would like an explanation because you mods are allowing this forum to become a place where violence can be fomented, or at least harrassment, and I have the correspondence to prove it, and it is backed up and archived off this site. If you mean well, do not give me the excuse that KevDude is not on a list. What happened that day that is such a fail to your expressed preferences about doxxing?
I vote yes. The mods need to be kept in check. Shitposts without flairs. Blabbing about consistency when there really is none. Maybe it's because there's so fucking many of them.
VieBleu ago
VSD's very own words earlier today - he said it tiwce actually without predjudice
VictorSteinerDavion -1 points (+1|-2) 2.3 hours ago
Where is this?, I'll remove it immediately
VieBleu ago
the hate speech thing is so OLD KevDude - I havent brought anything up on that in weeks. Yes, because of VSD AND the not well written dox rules, I thought doxxing was illegal. NOT THAT BAD OF A MISTAKE ACTUALLY. Most people think doxxing is illegal. So drop it, I don't censor. But I didn't want to see a woman doxxed, called and harrassed so call me guilty.
Edit: I thought ALL doxxing was illegal. Like anybody would normally assume..
VieBleu ago
BTW- As I asked further up in this thread, it all comes down to
who is in charge KevDude, or VSD? Right?
So if you are in charge, your rules. Right? BUT we are led to believe here that VSD is the big cheese, that HE makes the rules, and today he misled with his own statements. You saw them further up the thread - he wants HIS STANDARDS enforced and he defined them. So you can't tell me that you are angry/violent/ whatever towards me for the misunderstanding he creates. He wades in and says the things that caused this. I DIDN'T report that second incident because I had accepted that you guys would not take that first doxxing/harrassment post down. So this could all be avoided if he didn't ascend from above and make false statements on this forum, if they are indeed false.
So how about putting the blame where it is due in his direction if indeed KevDude trumps VSD.
VieBleu ago
Uh, you are welcome. lol
VieBleu ago
I don't advocate censorship in the comments - know that. Lost cause.
But you guys allowing doxxing the public and harrassment posts? Ha - believe me I get that voat is not a good fit for me. Or for pizzagate it turns out.
VieBleu ago
you have to realize there are some things new people don't automatically know. VSD only owns PG subverse, not all of voat for one. So I edited that above- obviously limiting doxxing/harrassment isn't better for voat in terms of how the site was set up and the original people that have been on the site want it to function as a total free speech forum. . .
VieBleu ago
Nah,thanks anyway. If stopping doxxing and calling for phone harrassment and etc of the public on PG subverse fails, it fails. My real argument was with the hypocrisy I percieved in VSD, who was acting very sure that his standards of no doxxing were being enforced, when I could clearly prove they weren't. You think I expected him to see my argument? HA. If you were threatening me lol I don't pay much attention to your flaccid theatrics. good ting you pointed it out. Anyway, you do your thing, I'll do mine. I don't hold on to grudges. Tata.
VieBleu ago
You are... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH2UB2uD-tA
downwithpizzaelite ago
Oh look, the fucking cucks deleted it.
Fuck this place.
ThePuppetShow ago
It was going badly for them. Haha
HarveyKlinger ago
Yes
VieBleu ago
@VictorSteinerDavion says this -
"The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work. Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted."
So is KevDude in charge? Or VSD?
downwithpizzaelite ago
Yes.
Phobos for example, really needs to be dealt with.
ThePuppetShow ago
Definitely power trippin, at least.
carmencita ago
Yes. Thank You for doing this.
ThePuppetShow ago
You're welcome, it's a shame it got deleted. We were well on our way to changing some of the bullshit going on here.
salinaslayer ago
Yes, absolutely
PizzaGate__ ago
yes
Phobos_Mothership ago
This is a violation of rules 1 (not directly related to pizzagate) and 4 (no meta/concern posts) this is not the subverse for non-investigation posts. This post will be removed.
consider reposting this to v/pizzagatemods
waxdino ago
The different subverses in a pizzagate network is a good idea, imo. But there is no consistency in enforcing it. Recent examples: Is GirlLover symbol found in scene of TV show "Lucifer directly related to pizzagate? Or WEBKINZ and Disney's CLUB PENGUIN: perfect digital hunting grounds for pedophiles? The Podesta Brothers Revealed to be in Portugal the Day of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance hung out as the top post for like a day before an accuracy in question flair was added. It is an old story, been posted before, and uses a totally unverified source.
This is a good, thoughtful post. But no evidence is presented, it's kind of just some free thoughts on pizzagate. Did it belong in the main sub, or vpizzagatewhatever?
So it's understandable that people get confused and pissed. If the main thread can get cluttered with that stuff, would it hurt to make a flair for mod concerns, or something? Until it's cleared up, at least?
I do think keeping direct, investigative posts, and random un- or semi-related posts separate is good. But, "got a problem, take it elsewhere!" seems to be a problem. If the problem with a mod is unfounded, it will get downvoted to oblivion. Edit: all sorts of formatting issues. @Phobos_Mothership @ThePuppetShow
salinaslayer ago
we'll make our own pizzagate subverse, with blackjack and hookers
ThePuppetShow ago
Tool. Thanks for playing along.
PoeticallyIncorrect ago
I don't mind discussing problems over there to help keep this subverse clean, but we should do voting here.
abortionburger ago
I'm going to voice a tentative yes. I do approve of the job that the mods do and I think they work hard and are fantastic. I also, however, believe that we should be able to have meta discussions from time to time. The other PG subs just aren't populated enough.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
No.
Reasoning:
It's hard enough to keep up with the flood of posts coming in and all the requests for intervention.
Complaints about moderation in the main sub is an easy step to facilitate drama, distractions and forum slide.
Complaints in the main sub are also a technique used to create tension and division amongst moderation teams for the purpose of instilling take over shills.
Creating methods of increasing moderator burnout is also a goal of infiltrators and disruptors, making this job so hard that people quit is the fast way to gain control of a sub.
False analogy, by reasoning that the best way to get the attention of the moderator team in a public, open and transparent manner is to call them out in a sub that is populated by an audience that specifically wants to pay attention to those topics.
It's like being told to leave a state full of people of mixed interests to go to a state full of people specifically interested in what you have to say.
Subscriber counts don't equate to much when the context of why someone subscribes.
__
I'm assuming other mods are deliberating on whether deleting this post is a good idea.
For now I propose leaving it up, but subsequent threads that incite drama or distraction be removed with a request for submission in the appropriate verse.
There may be value in a 'drama day' where posts like this are permitted, but would take a concerted effort of the mod team to facilitate and manage.
VieBleu ago
OK I posted the evidence you asked for - do you see it? Here I'll make it easy. Here it is -
OK so here you go - here is the submission https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791 goes to this http://kendallmarthasvineyard.com/contact-kendall-real-estate.php
and here is the comment- https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791
I sent the info to Millen Falcon, Vindicator, gophuckyourself, and wecanhelp
I received replies back over the next hours saying no one could figure out what to do, and gophuckyourself didn't want to "go rogue", and finally that KevDude made the decision to leave that woman's info up under the OP's stated wish to get 100x to call and ask questions daily and "ruin their lives for a bit."
Here is the comment for readers here - " AgainstTheNWO 2 points (+4|-2) 5 days ago
Why, do you not think they know that we know? Calling and talking is free ** I do not understand why it would be a bad idea if 100th keep calling them and ask them questions day in day out. Ruin their lives for a bit.** This can just be a question you ask, record and if there is or is not a answer place on www."
Ball now in your court. Let me guess, I'm wrong, it's all fine. I'm out of line, etc...
ThePuppetShow ago
Since you are like the king mod, I have a question. Will you guys change this rule if/when the community decides they want it changed?
BTW I forgot about the ad hominem "drama" label and gave you the upvote I promised. This isn't about drama, this is about a real concern for the moderation in this community.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Yes.
Key factor, the community must be a clear majority, not 5 or 6 members on a single thread.
For this to be effective a full post with the proposed rule change written/edited within that thread.
I do understand that is your perspective and understanding of this.
I request you consider the position of others, 'drama' is thrown around easily as a dismissal of issues, but it is also an issue when people simply start constantly screeching in a forum and drive others away who don't want to see drama everyday.
ThePuppetShow ago
Or not.. once again... deleted. Fuck what the community says, I guess?
ThePuppetShow ago
I understand. Thank you for the response.
I've never complained about a thread of mine getting deleted, before today and I expected that to get deleted. This one too, thanks for at least listening and not just deleting it. I've complained about other peoples threads getting deleted a few times because they had good info in them that need more connections. I've been here since r/pizzagate closed, so I don't feel at all like I'm the drama starter you're accusing me of being. I think a majority of the community feels this way or I would have never suggested it. We shall see.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
If I accuse you of a thing it will be direct and clear.
I'm not accusing you of drama, I am expressing concern over others using this as an excuse to cause drama.
ThePuppetShow ago
How can we get a full vote if the mods wont leave the thread open long enough to accomplish that?
VictorSteinerDavion ago
I know you're already against it but posting it in the requested sub is probably the best way forward at this time.
After, if the rule changes threads like this won't get deleted.
ThePuppetShow ago
There's no way possible to get the numbers needed in that sub without x posting here. You don't see the problem with this?
ThePuppetShow ago
Fair enough. That downvote wasn't me, but you know that.
MolochHunter ago
i made a similar post y'day about the mods deleting posts that arent investigative but are important awareness raisers/promotions/protesting
as a community, we have enough evidence. We had enough 2 months ago - maybe not enough for convictions, but that's not our job, that's the FBI's. Do we have enough evidence to demonstrate that the FBI may be seriously risking public safety should they fail to act. Unequivocally. So for me promotion / protest / dissemination is more important than further citizen investigation
and yet a promotion only sub will get shut down by the mods and recommended pizzagatewhatever with its pittance of subscribers
ThePuppetShow ago
I agree. We need to be able to discuss protest organization going forward, if nothing is done at the executive level.
eiggaMAD ago
Yes
And I say mods offer @HarveyKlinger a spot. He's been around since the beginning and always has good mod ideas everyone agrees with.
SaneGoatiSwear ago
i 100% voat for a
full purge and make default. open JANITOR positions and a design position.
yeah the extreme i know.
it's 100% cucked up in this bitch.
ThePuppetShow ago
So that's a yes, right? Haha
AgainstTheNWO ago
I see always a reason for removing posted by a mod. I personally have no problems with the mods. Now i mostly only reading and try to keep up while also have a life. I do understand that when is a lot of time in a topic and it is getting removed it will be a fucked up feeling, but the rules are not realy unreasonable and i for one should more often visit one of the subverse.
VieBleu ago
you have no reason because you dox a woman and call for phone harrassment and "making lives miserable" and that should have been removed, but was not- so yeah, you and the mods are close no doubt.
You are quite suspect in my book. That you are just fine with the mods is no big surprise. You and Devious3 or whatever show up together to buddy shill as well.
AgainstTheNWO ago
If you read my comments you already could find out who i am. But to get over this. Here, this is me. https://twitter.com/raklijnstra Because i have other view on something does not make me a shill. Constantly telling someone is a shill could be......
Out of my head does Devious3 not ring a bell (like your name) so most likely you just imagine stuff.
AgainstTheNWO ago
You can keep me harassing and try to pick a fight. Your problem is, i give a damn shit about your opinion after this behavior.
All has to go your way? Dictatorial behaviour is so typical.
ThePuppetShow ago
My beef isn't removed shit posts, it's not being able to discuss why the posts were removed. So, if a mod makes a "mistake" and deletes an important thread, we have no recourse. We are currently told to go talk to the forum with less than 250 members and posts with 10-20 views. Ive personally seen some good threads get deleted for not directly tying to pizzagate. That's what an investigation is all about. Not everything is going to have an immediate tie to pizzagate, that's what we're here doing. Trying to tie things to pizzagate to form a mass of circumstantial evidence large enough to force an investigation.
I really need a yes or no answer. I would assume you're a no. But, like I told someone else, I don't want to make assumptions. Reguardless, you got an upvote for participating, thank you.
AgainstTheNWO ago
But the post is still online, just not in in headlines and no comments possible.
This one is at least for one example. You can find them to go to your comments/postings, but maybe some are completely missing, if not, i do not really see a problem atm.
GenghisSean ago
I vote yes as well. Sharding the subverse is ok for memes and questions, but it seems there are too many pizzagate subverses now.
con77 ago
yes, free speech and transparency
Zen0 ago
yess
Nana66 ago
I vote we dump 2/3rds of the babysitters/Mods.
wecanhelp ago
You clearly have no insight into how much shitposting and rule violation happens in new submissions. The current number of mods is still not enough to cover 24 hours each day. Before throwing out ideas like this, it might be worthwhile to conduct a reality check. For example, you could volunteer 3-4 hours of your time to watch /new, and then you tell us what percentage of new submissions need moderator action of some sort. Judging by your current optimism, I promise you you'll be surprised.
Letsdoit ago
What about getting organised like what this removed submission is about https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1587156 time to change rule 4???
wecanhelp ago
The post you've linked to has not been removed. I sincerely believe that if we change rule 4 to allow mod-related posts on /v/pizzagate, this sub will go to shit, flooded with the whining and complaints of the people whose submissions we've removed for any kind of rule violation. I would say every third removal results in complaints even though they indeed violate submission requirements. If we allow all that on this sub, it is over for this sub. Hence the request for everybody to subscribe to /v/pizzagatemods, and take these there, so that the investigative content doesn't get lost in the noise. The community made no effort to subscribe to /v/pizzagatemods, and now the community is complaining that there's nobody on /v/pizzagatemods. In my opinion, the proposed change of rule 4 is not the solution to this problem.
ThePuppetShow ago
Both of the threads linked were deleted. It's impossible to organize anything or present anything without concrete evidence and this is hindering this investigation badly.
I gave you your upvote for participating though..
wecanhelp ago
@Letsdoit edited the link in their comment I was replying to. The original link pointed recursively to this post of yours, which, at the time of me writing my comment, was not deleted.
It is not. If you have the slightest demonstrable base for claiming a connection to Pizzagate, and you do spell out that connection explicitly, your submission will not be pulled. It is either a failure of post authors to do so, or the actual lack of said connecting dot that gets posts removed. In both of those cases, /v/pizzagatewhatever is still an option, and no, it's not a good argument that /v/pizzagatewhatever doesn't have enough subs. It is up to the community to decide whether they subscribe to a subverse or not. When they don't, they implicitly express their thoughts about the contents of the given sub. If the community doesn't want to subscribe to /v/pizzagatewhatever, why would they want to see the same content on /v/pizzagate from now on?
ThePuppetShow ago
The link in question demonstrated ties to pizzagate and was deleted. It was a call to organize peaceful protests about pizzagate.
wecanhelp ago
It was deleted rightly so. /v/pizzagatewhatever is the proper subverse for submissions like that.
ThePuppetShow ago
Actually it would be v/pizzagatemods and that was already discussed if you paid attention.
wecanhelp ago
This is clearly a topic for /v/pizzagatewhatever.
ThePuppetShow ago
Why? If you're trying to organize a comminity of 10000 you don't post stuff where only 100 will see it. What's so hard to understand about this?
wecanhelp ago
What's so hard to understand about all my replies addressing this already?
ThePuppetShow ago
Bullshit, the rules were created by a minority of the members, I'm questioning now how many were just alt accounts of mods.
Can you smell the crap coming out of your mouth? People dont go to the other sub because you guys predetermined in the rules that's where all the unrelated shit goes. Why would people subscribe? Now youre using the rules against everyone in the community. "Go post this call for protest where nobody will see it."
Lots of us see through the bullshit.
wecanhelp ago
Fine, continue to believe you "see thrugh the bullshit" then if that makes you sleep better. The rules are a result of trolls, shills, and legit individuals with no sense for what is a proper investigative submission posting content that, if allowed without the filter of sourced, investigative content for just three days, will kill the subverse, and then you can complain about not having a place to discuss proper leads and sourced findings either. If you're so sure that 10000+ people would want to see the kind of content you want to see, there is nothing stopping you in setting up a subverse yourself, or a board somewhere outside of Voat, or an own website on your own servers, and see how many are interested in a board with no moderation rules to guarantee that only sourced, investigative content gets out. This subverse has been an investigative subverse from the beginning, and we aim to keep it that way. That is not up for debate. If the 10000+ subscribers weren't into the way things work on here, they would have abandoned the sub by now. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case. It is a loud minority that seems to complain about moderation on here, and it may or may not largely overlap with the group that is continually incapable of posting something worthwhile that actually furthers the investigation.
This is all the capacity I've had to debate about this, so I'm done after this comment. You may open a discussion on /v/pizzagatemods if you want further input from other people.
ThePuppetShow ago
I'm not arguing to let the sub run free, I'm arguing so the community has recourse when we think something has been deleted unjustly. We have none now and you guys obviously would like to keep it that way. Quit twisting what I said in the thread to include letting shit posts stand.
wecanhelp ago
You're simultaneously arguing for more mod transparency, and a license to post non-investigative content if you see it as important. I'm directly responding to a comment of yours that talks about the latter.
I really can't keep helping you remember what you said five minutes ago. And I'm really done debating about this.
Crensch ago
Stellar job responding here.
wecanhelp ago
Thank you.
ThePuppetShow ago
I'm arguing that problems with moderation in v/pizzagate should be handled in v/pizzagate. If it comes down to the COMMUNITY (not me) deciding you guys were wrong for deleting a post, than so be it. Keep trying to spin it to what you want to believe though, it's rather entertaining and telling.
ThePuppetShow ago
This was direclty related to this sub, even Victor said to leave it and it was still deleted. It's nothing but blatant censorship, fuck what the community wants. We havr to get community approvam to change the rules, but only 200 of the 10000 are availabe at the other sub. It's a catch 22, we lose.
wecanhelp ago
For what it's worth, I would have left it up. I don't agree with the proposal at all, and I don't think it would lead anywhere, and I do think the submission was in violation of rule 4, but because of the traction it has gained, I would have left it up at least until there's a verdict. But the moderator who removed the post was not wrong to do so, per a current submission rule that is in effect and has been vetted and accepted by the same community, just a few weeks ago. It is our job to enforce these rules on behalf of the community, and as long as there isn't a new one accepted, there will always be a mod to remove these proposals.
ThePuppetShow ago
Anything could be deleted under current submissuon rules.
wecanhelp ago
That is simply untrue. Isn't it interesting how top researchers can always comply with submission rules? They're not so hard to comply with, it's just that most post authors do not make the slightest effort. When we see that an effort has been made, even if we delete a post we try and give suggestions as to what could be changed to fit the rules of the subverse. If nothing can be done, we still tend to recommend another subverse within the network.
ThePuppetShow ago
This vote will make their actions more visible to the entire community. By your comment I would assume you're a yes, but I don't want to make assumptions...
Nana66 ago
Yes
ThePuppetShow ago
Thank you.
eyeVoated ago
Yes
VieBleu ago
Yes, change please, and we need to leave, seriously just a thread on any other forum would be much better than this abusive crap and being totally neglected by mods whose reason has clearly deserted them, even down to doxxing left up. I've never heard of any mods anywhere being fine with doxxing, violence, vigilante justice and calls for harrassment like they are for this forum.
Anyway upvoted too.
C'mon NO people - looking forward to seeing you : D
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Where is this?, I'll remove it immediately
just because no one wants to adhere to your particular brand of censorship doesn't mean they advocate the opposite
As always, find a post that advocates those things, report it so it can be removed.
If you find a comment that 'doxxes' report it it will be removed.
If you find a comment that advocates "violence, vigilante justice and calls for harrassment" refute/downvote/ignore/troll - but the standing rules are comments do not get deleted unless they violate a rule.
Yes it can be upsetting for some to read comments that offend their sensibilities, but unfortunately, if we delete commentets that obviously inciting we get branded shills and killing free speech.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
I was unaware that there were systems in place forcing you to be here......
VieBleu ago
In this thread, KevDude says "Doxxing is defined as information that is not public or information on a user"
VictorSteinerDavion says this in this thread in a reply to me - "The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work. Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted."
So is KevDude in charge? Or VSD?
Also, it used to be against the rules to do ANY doxing on this forum, but KevDude evidently rewrote the rules specifically to allow doxing outside of the forum. Why? There used to be a rule against Violence as well, gone. Why?
I am not talking about that old argument about bigotry, hate speech etc...this is specifically about anti-doxxing and anti-violence, the last bastions of a reasonable forum.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
considering kevude is not on the mod list, this one falls to me and @crensch
I've stated my position in previous comments and I'll communicate this to crensch so we can re-re-draft a rule to match the standard I have set and expect to be enforced.
For future reference, this rule change will only deal with the topic of editing the rules in regards to publishing information that identifies people, and any posts and comments that advocate, encourage or insinuate physical actions.
VieBleu ago
I feel a sense of relief that at least this standard is going to be upheld, and I hope you are in the end glad as well- having your standards enforced can only be good for you so I hope you look at my absolute attention to not having this forum degrade into an outpost for harrassment and a tool for false flag shills as ultimately a positive thing.
I appreciate your calm under my fire as well, I suppose I may owe you a personal apology. If you care to have it then it is yours.
Now I have 1 last question - would this comment https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1586134/7736059 be deleted under your dox rules rewrite? - when it was put up it bothered me, because it seems to be asking people to go to a farm, which was doxed just above it at the time in this comment https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1586134/7736894, and poke around, try to get evidence. I didn't report it because the lack of action on the real estate agents comment had a dampening effect on the belief that rules would be enforced. As you said "comments that advocate...physical actions" I'd like to submit this comment for deletion. Actually dangerous statements like this are fairly rare, so I don't think this is going to cause a flood of work for our poor, martyred Crensch.
My Regards - VieBleu
Crensch ago
Also, VieBleu is a modhating shitstirrer that I'm more or less disinclined to engage as legitimate.
Crensch ago
Sorry, you've lost me there. Not following what you're saying, so I'll respond with my own thoughts, but please clarify your position.
I'm of the mind that the people here need to be responsible for their own NetSec, and only non-public information is considered doxxing, while public info is a freeforall. Not because that's how I want it, but because of the backlash from the older goats that would destroy us for changing it.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
As an old goat, they can destroy me all they want.
The reason I said public information should be included in the definition is to deal with the case when someone calls for the harassment of "specific individual/group of individuals" at this "public address/number"
Posting public information with the intent to create nuisance and cause harm in the same way people do "SWATTing" is something I don't want this community to be accused of.
Posting of public information as a matter of fact and evidence for the record is safe as it is a simple fact without the threat of violence.
What I'm trying to do is craft a rule that permits the posting of public information as evidence, but removes the problem of people that want to cause violent actions by misusing the ability to post public information.
Allowing for violent actions thought this is a way outside forces can discredit the work done by this community.
As you and I are the owner mods I want to make sure we agree to even make this distinction, and then craft a rule if we do agree.
Crensch ago
That can be dealt with either by the authorities, the admins, or by having better NetSec. We can't protect everyone, and attempting to do so is a fool's errand.
It's not something the community cares about enough to make a rule, apparently. We just got through having the community discussion on the rules - it's not up to us to change them.
A threat of violence can be dealt with by police or other authorities.
That information can be posted anywhere on this site. Restricting it here is just silly.
You can't operate by making a rule for every way this place can be discredited. They'll just keep bringing up shit for you to make more rules about.
I don't. I've taken the bait on this before, ask @kevdude. I thought we needed to craft some rules to protect against violence before when everything was in upheaval. Through the discussions about it we found that it wouldn't work, and just looked like useless virtue signalling.
People are going to use information how they want to use it. Real threats can be dealt with by authorities.
Our job - our only job - is to make this place viable to post investigation information.
Edit:
Sorry, it just occurred to me that this rule would look something like a restriction of guns to prevent violence. (see Chicago and D.C.)
VieBleu ago
OK so here you go - here is the submission https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791 goes to this http://kendallmarthasvineyard.com/contact-kendall-real-estate.php
and here is the comment- https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1575017/7674791
I sent the info to Millen Falcon, Vindicator, gophuckyourself, and wecanhelp
I received replies back over the next hours saying no one could figure out what to do, and gophuckyourself didn't want to "go rogue", and finally that KevDude made the decision to leave that woman's info up under the OP's stated wish to get 100x to call and ask questions daily and "ruin their lives for a bit."
Here is the comment for readers here - " AgainstTheNWO 2 points (+4|-2) 5 days ago
Why, do you not think they know that we know? Calling and talking is free ** I do not understand why it would be a bad idea if 100th keep calling them and ask them questions day in day out. Ruin their lives for a bit.** This can just be a question you ask, record and if there is or is not a answer place on www."
Ball now in your court. Let me guess, I'm wrong, it's all fine. I'm out of line, etc...
VieBleu ago
This has been going on for days, where are you when you are needed? I have plenty of proof of all of it, I don't waste my time or mods time with BS.
The other day there was a comment left up for HOURS that specifically called for phone harrassment and making life miserable for the real estate agent involved in the podesta email. Her office and phone are available as a public business, but she is a private person, not a politician or restauranteur even. AND the post specifically called for harrassing her and pointed right at her info.
There was a "debate"about it among the mods but ultimately KevDude decided that that woman deserved to have her info up and the call for harrassment comment was never every even addressed. It is all in my PM to mods and my history.
That is just one example ONE. We are sick of your self righteous BS about "just because you don't want people doxxed doesn't mean we shouldn't dox her..or whatever your latest way to put it is... Replying to you - NO IT IS NOT REMOVED WHEN REPORTED. I provided exact proof. The proof was never disputed by THREE MODS. Vindicator said he tried. and the other one, justsomething or other, wrote and told me he didn't want to go "rogue".
This shit is BS. Stop pretending to have some kind of high road running up your bum.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Links please.
The rules are no contact details, whether public or otherwise.
Proper results require proper conduct. Insults simply reduce my will to help.
You point out that you want harassment etc censored, yet you fall to petty insults.
This does not make me more amenable to your cause.
edit:
I have many things that demand my attention. Unfortunately I'm not always able to sit on internet forums and monitor them constantly.
The way around that is to message or ping me when things need to be brought to my attention.
The downside is sometimes I won't respond quick enough in some cases, but I will respond.
VieBleu ago
VSD- Unfortunately, the matter I brought to your attention has not been allowed to rest. KevDude is making it clear to me that once he and Crensch talk to you, everything you decided earlier will change, Those comments weren't harrassment/doxxing, there will be no editing of rules, and what you say are your standards are apparently of no consequence whatsoever according to Kevdude anyway..
This stuff is really ridiculous, confusing and a time waster for all of us. Who is actually in charge of voat pizzagate? Do you have the final say, or is it KevDude - because he comes down on me pretty hard for what you asked me to report to you so that you could "eliminate it immediately", as per your own comment earlier up on this thread.
It is important for all of us to know - does this forum allow doxxing and harrassment like that which I proved earlier after all? and ultimately, who is the authority here?
BTW- KevDude also enjoyed telling me someone should find me and knock out my teeth. Do you really think voat is the place to be for people who actually care about children? Considering the magnitude of what this controversial topic is about, maybe you should entirely rethink bedding down something as polarizing as pizzagate at a place that allows doxxing as most people define it, harrassment, calls for physical action, hate speech, anti-semitism, bigotry and all the rest. Maybe not such a good fit? Please think about it.
Thanks - VB
VieBleu ago
I'm being poetic, and describing the facts as well.
What I am talking about is a clear violation of your so called rules by mods. We experience it daily. I will TAKE THE TIME to get all the background for you, and then I expect that if I do that, there is going to be some kind of recourse to the mod that allowed the doxxing to stay, right? It was a "higher up" that made the determination, and it was KevDude. So Right? What is the recourse? Or are you having me go and prove this to you so you can continue to mock and ignore your own rules?
EDIt: as i recall, they said only doxxing of people on the forum wasn't allowed, is that true? Because if that is true, that's a shit rule. So my links are below.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Mods are held to a much higher standard and the first step is pointing out the error and ensuring the mistake is understood.
This will be my first step of 'recourse'.
Repeat violation will result in more stern actions.
If you want me to help you, be more observant of how your communication may harm your cause.
It's hard to articulate this one, as there are a bunch of annoying edge cases that can be ambiguous.
The current rules are meant to stop people from harassing people, at home or at work.
Currently, posting the contact details of a private residence or the details of an individual at a workplace are not permitted.
But what do we do when someone finds direct evidence of a specific location that is key in the discussion?
That would violate the rule, but also censor the investigation.
It's difficult to delineate between the issues and not fall foul of one problem or another.
Maybe wording like: "Posting the contact details of a private individual are not permitted, Posting the contact details of an individual at a workplace for the purposes of incitement to harass are not permitted."
Posting the street address of a location involved in child trafficking and abuse could be considered 'doxxing' but is possibly also necessary to communicate a link to others investigating.
I'm actually against posting publicly available location information for private individuals as it can often be turned into a method for claiming all kinds of information is 'public' and justifying the actions.
Figuring out this can sometimes take time and be very frustrating.
Please continue to give your input and perspective on this issue as I do feel it needs a concrete, no equivocating statement from the mods.
I will discuss this with @KevDude after reading your links and I will get back to you with the results of that discussion.
VieBleu ago
ok. I wil say this. I am and have acted out - angry- at you. You probably didn't have any idea it was coming and it felt wrong to you. I understand that. I'm not sorry, but I feel you deserve an explanation. When you are experiencing this stuff it builds up after awhile, then obviously it kind of explodes. Your mods do whatever they want whenever they want and you suddenly showing up acting like a parent who knows what's what seems hypocritical to me. Anyway it may or may not be, Idc. Just giving you context for my reaction.
There are other problems as well. If you genuinely want to clean this place up it is time because you will have an exit on your hands soon. When a place becomes unusable, there is no other choice. The spam nothing posts are not taken down even after numerous calls for it, we don't have more votes than the shills, turns out, so that doesn't work. It's way beyond just that doxxing problem, when I say tolerance of vigilante justice, violence and etc. I am not joking. Did you see that those rules were taken away in the forum rules rewrite? Thanks to KevDude. WTF? why would that ever be taken away from any forum's rules? Anyway, hope you have some understanding of where I am coming from.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
KevDude is no longer on the mod list.
There is nothing that can be added to that could be considered recourse.
This is part of the issue I have with my limited time, it can seem like that to the outside observer.
When discussing this with kingkongwaswrong my position was explicitly not one of constant direct involvement. I just don't have the time.
My involvement was to ensure there was no way a take over could happen because I have the ability to de-mod people.
When I am active in the sub my aim is to encourage the community to self manage, as it is the communities responsibility to itself.
I'm not a parent, guide or guardian, I am simply the thin line between those that want to subvert this sub and the community.
Then I will know people care more about whatever agenda they have than they do about stopping the pervasive, systematized, commercialized sexual exploitation of children by the elite and powerful of this planet.
If that happens, I will continue my own actions with my own resources, as I have been doing long before this forum existed.
VieBleu ago
Here is a copy of messages sent to me 1. over hours - this was not a quick - oops mistake decision 2. KevDude was specifically telling the other mods what to do on pizzagate forum 3. the mods promised changes in the rules - no change 4. they try to make the argument that OUR FORUM isn't specific about doxing people outside the forum. Really incredible.
sorry it is not a perfect document, i don't have time to do that for you now. It's all in my PM under my name here anyway.
Vindicator > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 5:59:47 AM doxxing thread
That would be Kevdude. And he would not let us delete. I will get demodded if I "over-moderate". It's considered censorship. Everything shared was public information, so it's technically not doxing. I tried, though.
Vindicator > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 1:04:36 AM doxxing thread
We are discussing the appropriate response now. Mods want to take down. Waiting to hear from Voat higher-ups.
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:26:34 AM doxxing thread
It is going to be getting taken down we're just getting secondary blarg for it as I'm a bit worn out from arguing about the ama thing right now. Wecanhelp will be taking care of it.
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:24:16 AM doxxing submission
It is not explicit enough, it only mentions doxxing against Voat subscribers. We're probably going to extend that with "or private citizens", and remove the post. I'm waiting for one more confirmation on this. Transparency within the mod team is important, I'm not going to go rogue with this.
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:14:07 AM doxxing submission
Thanks for these reports, I think you may be onto something with this. I'm actively trying to push some action on this, unfortunately most of our mods are temporarily away right now, and adding to the rules is always a more significant decision where it's best more of us weigh in.
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:13:22 AM doxxing thread
possible sidebar change incoming adding private citizens to the doxx claus. We want someone else to weigh in before we do so tho.
wecanhelp > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/19/2017 12:03:13 AM doxxing submission
We're discussing this right now, and will likely add a word about private citizen in the rules as well as remove either some comments or the entire submission. Give us a few minutes.
gopluckyourself > VieBleu | Sent: 5 days ago on 1/18/2017 11:53:50 PM doxxing thread
brainstorming with team on how to handle.
VieBleu ago
Let's get down to what is important - KevDude may not be on the mod list but I was told by TWO mods that they couldn't make a decision and had to go to a "higher up". I asked who it was and was specifically told it was KevDude. This was all done on PM and it is in my account.
Now, I really would like an explanation because you mods are allowing this forum to become a place where violence can be fomented, or at least harrassment, and I have the correspondence to prove it, and it is backed up and archived off this site. If you mean well, do not give me the excuse that KevDude is not on a list. What happened that day that is such a fail to your expressed preferences about doxxing?
crystalclearme ago
yes - works more easily to remain on page and increases transparency
Letsdoit ago
YES please, so i don't have to keep reading moderator log to find out what is goin on.
VieBleu ago
Or the deleted submissions area to find anything worthwhile lol
waxdino ago
I vote yes. The mods need to be kept in check. Shitposts without flairs. Blabbing about consistency when there really is none. Maybe it's because there's so fucking many of them.