This is reasonable -- especially since Removed submissions still show up via Search. It allows mods to remove off topic submissions, and protects comments from being censored.
Kev, you should write a post explaining your philosophy on this (which I think is shared by many on Voat).
The problem is that new folks come here, get excited, create a subverse about something they are passionate about, and then if it gets any traction at all it becomes the target of shills and trolls and when they try to do something about it, they end up triggering the Voat immune system. There are tools given to O's and M's by the platform which the unwritten rules of Voat forbid you to use. It's very confusing for new folks and often looks like hypocrisy to them. An explanation...maybe even a Voat Constitution and Bill of Rights...would go a long way to preventing unnecessary goat wars.
He said he couldn't do that. He said there was a timer that said he needed to wait 45 hours or something when he tried to make it private.
The thing is, people who weren't players on his server were abusing his subverse to get a reaction so PV could do what it always does and censor a guy with downvoats and drive people away from the site. But, if they weren't players on that Minecraft server, what the hell were they doing there to begin with? Seems like PV went out of it's way to censor this guy, destroy his subverse, and hurt voat as a whole by continuing to drive decent people from the site. Good job protecting voat guys, congratulations.
I'm on Reddit to see photos of horses and dogs!
Really that's it. I'm pretty sure those subjects, I found the end of the internet on Pinterest so I had to find a new place for my daily fix!
steal their horse and dog pics and post them here, my dude. As long as you're not one of them furry freaks that wants to fuck horses and dogs of course.
My comment here: https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126969/17706110
got downvoated as well. I was just talking about a good outdoors subverse that voat has. I don't care about the downvoats, what I do care about is mindlessly attacking a subverse and everyone who commented in it because of a mod who didn't even care about moderating it and deleted off-topic posts because he didn't want that to be the first thing people see when they get on the sub.
Not if he's gonna be a cunt about it. It sets a bad precedent. It's like how if doctors find even a teensy benign tumor in your boob, they'll still cut it out when it starts to grow a little, just to be sure. Who knows, maybe it never kills you. But it's there. And it's growing.
Totally uncalled for to post that. He wasn't doing anything to warrant that post. And he said he deleted it because he didn't want a sub with only two other posts to have spam on it, nut just because he was butthurt. That post absolutely WAS spam, the claim that it was a test to see if he was a corrupt mod or not is just dumb.
Then you guys (or PV, idk if you specifically were included) dogpiled him, started mass downvoating him and the sub, and insulted him. He wasn't trying to subvert voat or anything, he had been a user for 5 months with no problems and the only reason he was mod of that was because he created it because no one else had. I guarantee if %90 of goats had been in that situation they would have done the same thing. I'm not saying it was the right thing for him to do, but I understand why he reacted the way he did.
Yeah that's some bullshit, I was seeing this also. This is how you kill a young platform before it ever takes off, there's no need to be so hostile towards new users and communities. /v/DestroyVoat is a cancer
He's not trying to recruit voaters, it's a subverse for his private Minecraft server because their subreddit got shoahed. You retards attacked it to "protect voat". It's a subverse for an existing Minecraft server, the mod should be able to police it how he wants since it's literally about his server. Same with @stonetoss. You retards actually chase away decent redpilled people by acting like autistic gatekeepers.
He probably didn't even know private subverses we're a thing, and I think I remember him saying that it couldn't be set to private until it was 48 hours old. Could be wrong on that last part. Anyway you guys were way out of line on this one.
I've had two people with accts over a year old block me because what I said made them mad. If you ask me, that's reddit tier behavior. What's more reddit-y about it is that they replied to me saying "blocked!"
Just reminds me of squeakers in vidya lobbies yelling "reportid!!!1"
Just two? I've had a few block me on Subs I've never been to. I guess it could be the same person using different alts? Are there that many faggots out there?
It's a step up from standard reddit tier behavior. At least they recognize that it's their problem and they have to deal with it.
Doing so by blocking or muting, and especially announcing it as if it matters, is childish and petulant but it's better than the typical millennial approach of appealing to outside authority to deplatform people whose opinions they don't like.
Just reminds me of squeakers in vidya lobbies yelling "reportid!!!1"
Oh man I love when people do that and I'm with my buddies in TF2. We'll be as cancerous as possible and anybody that says "muted" or tells us to shut the fuck up, we kick. On official Valve servers only. I'd hate to do that on a personal server.
The real fun was back in the Nineties with the original Quakeworld Teamfortress using Gamespy to connect. The first couple of generations of 3D cards came out about that time, so one day you'd be rocking 320x240x16 on an S3 chipset and the next you'd be playing the same maps with a better framerate at 640x480x32 with shadowed textures and hardware rendering using Glide on a Monster3D card. It was like falling into the game and living in it. I probably still have dreams about 2Forts.
The best QWTF server was Red Dwarf. Shoutout to the boys!
They literally downvoated @Coors_Nationalist to the point where he can't vote, post, or comment. Who is the real censor? The guy who has a sub for a specific Minecraft server and doesn't want his sub filled with off topic garbage? Or the people who take away his ability to use the website? @PuttItOut, this is a problem I've touched on over the years. If someone isn't a spammer but just isn't liked or has "the wrong opinions" they are prevented from using the site.
Possible solution: an appeal process where someone downvoated to oblivion can have their site privileges returned to them.
If you see someone setting the house on fire, do you hose his ass or not?
Acting nasty without cause is not how one should gain acceptance of the mob. It's sort of like being in a MOSH PIT, it's all fun & games until someone gets hurt, so if you're fragile it's best not to jump in because all you're going to accomplish is fucking up a good time.
This is an issue, it is an exploit in our system. I've never once denied this.
Sub owners should run their subs how they want. But then Voat users should vote how they want. See the problem? Which group are you going to target?
How I see it: 90%+ of these cases involve someone conducting themselves in a fashion incompatible with Voat's principles, or they are hostile and prideful in their conduct/communication. Both scenarios indicate an unwise person.
It would be ideal if Voat lived and let live, but that will never happen because Voat is filled with people that test and abuse in order to claim a trespass. Voat is right in the end though... Those with incompatible principles never assimilate. In this way I'm proud, but I do wish Voat was more measured in their response rather than going nuclear immediately. This drastic attack based response is a sign of immaturity on the part of Voat and actually works against Voat in the end. I wish Voat was wise enough to see this perspective.
Pretty sure @stonetoss took off because of a similar situation.
either limit the number downvoats, or add a cooldown on the amount a person can be downvoated per 24 hours or show who is downvoating (im acutally on fence about this one, one could just make a downvoat alts)
I think the cooldown method is still the greatest, cap it at like -15 the only ones that downvoat anyways are spineless losers on a power trip
My problem with this is that it seems completely unnecessary. The guy had an account for five months with no problems and used it regularly. He didn't even care about being a mod of the place, and wanted to give it to the old mod from Reddit if he wanted it. He said the reason he deleted the posts was because he didn't want people to be turned away or confused if most of the posts on the sub didn't have anything to do with Minecraft. Yeah it was misguided, but he was doing what he thought was best for the sub even if it was wrong.
And then it just snowballs out of control and people were immediately insulting him and mass downvoating him and the subverse.
It was good in the case of the animemes thing, but in this case it's just a mostly normal dude who made a dumb mistake.
Isn't it how the mistake is handled? Handling a mistake correctly involves humility and wisdom. Most don't have this and react by doubling down out of pride. It is a sign of a small and hurt person.
In the Voat sense, they become an enemy of the people (aka the mob) and it just gets worse from this point.
If only people with humility and wisdom could use Voat, we would have a grand total of about 12 users. Probably more but you get the idea. I'm not a prideful person, but there are plenty of days where I might have responded poorly like him.
if you act poorly, respond to criticism poorly, and respond to the reaction to your overall behavior poorly, ad infinitum bad decisions stack, maybe it's reflective of the kind of person and more pertinently the kind of mod you are, rather that the day you're having
all I want is for the users to control the site and have oversight over the mods. v/protectvoat basically accomplishes this but it's the users in general controlling the whole site and in an ad hoc manner which is sub-optimal. The common man needs leverage over those who he would trust to rule over him, otherwise he has no recourse if that trust was betrayed.
just add a system so users can remove subverse mods themselves without you needing to step in. Make it based on the users subverse CCP and SCP so other users can't abuse it. The site is based on voting and democracy so we should have a democratic system by which to depose power mods. Rather than siding with either give the users more agency and power themselves so the mods can't abuse the power they already have relative to them.
I look forward to it, I think a site like this should belong to it's users and the mods should just work for them. I'd like to see the site be structured in this way. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll leave mod behavior alone on subverses I don't use as long as I know the users of the sub can manage the mods themselves. there is the worry of people abusing such a system with alt accounts or collaborators but that's a bridge that can be crossed later
Thanks for the quick response. I understand both sides and see your dilemma. @stonetoss is a good guy. Chasing people like him away is not good for voat. I understand people attacking a powermod of a sub that is used for a more general purpose, but when someone has a personal subverse like this, the freedom to moderate how they see fit should be more important. I know you probably won't have any solution anytime soon, but thanks for acknowledging the issue. I don't think voat will be able to ever grow much without this being addressed.
when someone has a personal subverse like this, the freedom to moderate how they see fit should be more important.
the users of the subverse should decide what they want for the sub, the mod just works for them. If the janitor gets too uppity he should lose his job.
if your band had say 4 members and you were the only one with mod privileges I'd argue the other 3 members should have some recourse if you used those privileges to screw them over on the subverse that ought to belong to all 4 of you. The problem is you think of it as your band even though the other members also have a right to it and why should the simply trust you with no insurance especially when you come off so self-centered. A community online belongs to it's users and the forum they populate belongs to the community, the person moderating it is tasked with representing them and working to create the site they want to use rather than everything simply being his
That's a strawman of what my point was. Anyways, his server = his subverse. If you want your own server, then you can have your own subverse. The only purpose anyone would use his sub if they're on his Minecraft server. Anyone who mods the server should mod the subverse in the way they see fit. Nobody posts about SBBH banning people from their sub. They should totally be able to though, it's their sub.
this is what they do man, I cant begin to tell you how how many accounts they targeted me on and downvoated me to shit. They sit in a chatroom and say downvoat this guy.... I would even put past they have private verse for such operations.
reminder @kevdude asked me before to brigade for him, only to upvoat (only what i would do) tho, and I DM you saying I was going to putt. Who to say he doesnt ask people to downvoat for him? @puttiout
who is the real manipulator here? Is it one person protecting from your self amiddited flaw in your system, or the cancer causing it? @zyklon_b
this is why people are leaving, voat ISNT free speech its collectivism/authoritarianism
There is very few of us old active goats here left... dude they think downvoating is free speech @puttitout
When everything about downvoting is about censorship (self admitted by you putt)
its too early for me to get pissed im stopping now. get your shit together putt, you lost alot but this shit has got to end. I have an account rebuilding, im sure you know.
this downvoating bullshit based on mob rule needs to fucking end
I'd say that's a case by case basis. Something like /v/hockey or /v/Chicago should 100% be community driven, but a sub for a particular Minecraft server seems like it should be run by the people who run the server or at the very least the people who play on the server. People were up in arms about him banning people who weren't players on the server, they had no business using that subverse in the first place.
someone made a single shitpost to see what the mod would do, he immediately deleted it and several comments and banned anyone who had a problem with that. Then they made a post on protect voat pointing out that this happened and linking to the modlogs as proof. The mod responded to this by getting into the comments to scream and cry about how because of his dignity as a fascist wouldn't allow anyone making fun of him while people mostly either made fun of him or tried to explain basic concepts about the principal of free speech to him. He continued to sperg out and most of the downvoats he got (the "brigade" as you call it) were the ones he got on that thread arguing with people making fun of him while he explained how he was literally and unironically against free speech.
I'm not sure what he expected or what you think should've happened here, but outside of the original shitpost, everything that happened to him was only a result of his own behavior and poor decision making skills
This is exactly why Voat hasn't grown. Voat is its own worst enemy, we just don't acknowledge it.
There is no solution from where I stand as any solution will remove freedoms from one party.
This is ultimately the issue with all public goods... How can you offer freedom without limiting it?
I obviously do not have a solution, but this scenario is the root of all Voat's problems as a community. We solve this, or grow past it as a whole, we would be unstoppable.
the motivation behind this, (though I won't deny people do this for fun), is basically as follows;
Ugh you showed your true colors there. It isn’t yours and it never will be. You as a creator and moderator should allow your ego to admit that the sub belongs to its members.
it's intended to provoke a reaction. Assumedly the mod will just ignore people making fun of him, the users of the sub will downvoat unrelated or unwanted content and everyone moves on, but what happened was the mod deleted the post and various comments and banned people just for making fun of him. If he'll delete posts and comments just because random people on the internet make fun of him, who's to say he won't censor other content he doesn't like?
If the users of his sub could deal with any issues of such nature themselves there'd be little or at least less motivation for any sort of watchdog-esque group to step in on their behalf or out of their concern. Rather than letting power mods run subs how they want, give users the tools to be sure the mods run the subverse they want to use. Users get the subs they want, and mods get punished if they abuse the moderation tools they're trusted with.
Doing this would negate the necessity of the original motivation that kicked this whole, and similar, fiascos off.
But this is a niche sub. It should be allowed to govern itself in any way it sees fit. And that includes removing content that is purposefully malicious.
Voat's promise is that we won't ban (harm) users from the entire site over speech, but this doesn't work for small niche subs. Standards are good. Shit posts are noise.
Voat's promise is that we won't ban (harm) users from the entire site over speech
Yet, essentially a portion of the Voat user base made the site nearly unusable for this coors kid. So the next step is to let the pitchfork and torch crowd have more power!
This place is strange yet awesome.
...
Maybe some day, Voat will transition to a more republican philosophy.
actually i said it should be based on subverse CPP so the power is in the hands of the actual users of the subverse rather than exclusively in the mods, v/protectvoat is basically users of the site in general trying to rein in the mods of the whole site, if there was a reliable option for users of a specific subverse to deal with potential problems after they occur you wouldn't see people trying to deal with potential problems before they occur
I can solve this issue but it opens the door to other evils
Sounds ominous. You’re better off just letting the rabble continue to rabble. There has to be some slight uptick in growth, no? Or maybe we lost a bunch of Aussies and Kiwis and that is not helping.
Can someone explain to me why @Rainy-Day-Dream keeps harping about Voat Votes? As if this great idea hasn’t been in development/development hell for something like two years?
While I have you, on a scale of 1-10, how pissed is our anal going to be when I deface their advertisement?
basically how I see it is currently the inmates at large are running the whole asylum, whenever a warden steps out of line at all they riot and immediately try to kill him, even if he's only recently been hired. This has led to an all time low of inmate abuse relative to other asylums the inmates were transferred in from, but the asylum itself isn't functioning very well in a lot of ways.
so what I propose is that each individual ward be run only by the inmates in it, and they be given a legal recourse to deal with mistreatment so they don't immediately try to resort to violence.
cleaning up spam is one thing, but generally deciding what content shows up on the front of the subverse is what the voating system is for not what mod deletions and bans are for. The users of the subverse should have whatever subverse they want, the mods are just there to clean it up for them. The users own the sub and the community, the mod is just their volunteer janitor, who they should be able to dismiss if he does his job improperly to their standards.
non of them imo, i think people would've just downvoated them, then it's outta site outta mind. No need for the mod to get involved, tell me if you honestly feel people should be banned from the subverse just for making fun of the guy in charge of it
is making fun of someone looking for a fight? it'd be hard to get by on the internet without a tolerance for banter. When this subverse got populated if the users poked fun at or disagreed with their mod, would that also be "looking for a fight"? these are the kind concerns that motivate the behavior on v/protectvoat, which would be unnessecary if the users could deal with the mod causing any problems on their own.
I'm not saying v/protectvoat is a good solution to dealing with or in this case preventing power mods, but it's the one we have until you provide us with alternative measures. Remember that people ended up on voat because of the way admins and mods on reddit ran roughshod over them and abused them and they had no recourse to stop them besides leaving. People here are paranoid about the way mods act in their position as mods, but it's not as if they don't have a good reason to worry about it.
the "abuse" was basically someone fishing for censorship though, and the did find it as people were banned outright just for making fun of the mod and commenting on his behavior. I'm defending their intentions more than I am their actions, because if you provide another avenue for users to act of those intentions they won't need to undertake the actions in question which are the abuse you're rightly concerned with.
Treat the disease rather than the symptoms and the disease in this situation and many similar instances is concern about potential power mod behavior and censorship, which is a concern that can be dealt with and acted upon in better ways than it was today if you give people the ability to do so.
right and I'm not asking you to side with either, side instead with the users potential or otherwise of subverses to come so this doesn't happen again. Give them the power to deal with any problems their mods may or do cause and then people won't have to worry about it, taking the wind out of the sails of the occasionally justified paranoia that caused all of this avoiding the conflict all together in the future. Once power mods aren't something to worry about people won't have a motivation to abuse mods to check whether or not they are such anymore, because even if they end up being such the users will be able to handle it with no outside intervention preemptive or otherwise so once this is the case they'll be a lot less likely to bother stirring up trouble like this. I'm not taking so much about which side is right or wrong or more at fault as how we can avoid the problem all together going forward.
Boss what I said wasn’t a shit test or to provoke a reaction. It was the truth. I deleted very little in my time as a moderator and only one person.
Sanegoatiswear which I think you and I can agree on needed it.
The subs are never the creators and always the subscribers which is something atko made clear the day he told us all to make subverses.
My feelings are and have always been that when someone begins to delete comments and ban people it deserves to be called out, and even I was, but I was found right in the discourse of public opinion.
This was a brand new sub, less than a day old. There is no community in which to speak. It's a niche sub for a particularly narrow purpose and target audience. It has every right to remove shit posts imo. Having standards is not censorship, posting off topic content is an abuse of the principals we hold.
You wouldn't stand for this in real life. Build a park for your kids to play. Post a sign letting the community know its for everyone's enjoyment. Now the homeless move in. Tent city. Trash everywhere. Can't remove them or it would violate your values, right? What happens to the park? Who would let their kids play there? How would you solve this? Creating rules? Enforcing rules? Standards are real. They matter.
Tell me where I'm wrong.
Better yet, go create a sub with good intentions. I'll destroy whatever chances you have to create something of value and claim it's Free Speech. I can do it to you too while hiding behind the protections of Free Speech.
You have a point in concerns to established subs and new mods, but this is quite different considering, don't you think?
I don't love your example of the park, because there are many existing laws that wouldn't allow the exact use you are describing. If the park is truly for anyone's use, with no other governing rules, then you'd be a foolish idealist to think children could play there. Free speech is kind of the same thing. It's going to attract the best and the worst, but certainly not the casuals.
This guy specifically went wrong when he started being ban happy on comments moreso than any posts (in my own opinion). Voat seems to be of the opinion that comments should be left alone in non-private subs, and the community should up/down vote them for ranking. I personally like this philosophy, though it isn't an official rule.
I offered this gentleman my own opinion, that he should leave comments alone or he would get destroyed by the response. He deleted that comment.
I guess we have fundamentally different viewpoints, since I don't feel like we have to grow, and you'd likely prefer that we did (which is perfectly reasonably).
I'll give you that the park example isn't a direct match, but it does have similarities.
I don't feel like we have to grow
And here is the issue. I feel that Voat doesn't want to expand and acts accordingly. My view is that truth must have as many eyes on it as possible. I got involved with Voat to make the world a better place by promising not to censor the inconvenient aspects of humanity and evil. We can't change the world if we run everyone off. We expect people to be wise and mature as soon as they arrive, this is an unrealistic expectation.
I also lack knowledge of the comment deletions. All I can say is when Voat targets you, most people react by going nuclear. Doesn't make it right, but humans react this way by default.
As much as I respect you, I don't often envy you. A bit of the old "heavy lies the crown" comes to mind.
I think at some point YOU have to draw a clear line about whether a niche sub has to be private if the mods want to be heavy-handed. And honestly, as you already said, the community doesn't have to respect that, unless you start removing more voting freedoms as well. That will obviously set off a cascading effect of censorship and bans until we might as well be Reddit.
It also begs the question, is Voat (a place seemingly dedicated to freedom of expression) an appropriate place for niche and hobby subs? And who has to compromise if it is?
I was a huge fan of /u/LockeProposal and /v/HistoryAnecdotes which was well established and frequented when it was run off using similar tactics. This question is not a new one. I originally lamented losing that sub, but I've actually come around to the idea that free expression is supposed to be the defining feature.
Maybe the recent banning of that pedophile we were all happy to see leave has hardened your resolve to tackle some of these sticky issues. That was also a very difficult and grey area. I'm happy in this case, but we all now see the potential for anyone to be banned.
Sorry for rambling a little. I think your non-interventionist approach has been great so far, but you may need to make a clear rule on this issue at some point. Can public subs have extremely heavy handed mods who ban you for personal reasons? SBBH and its offshoots all do this (mostly as a joke, but they still do it) all the time.
Well I unbanned that user and they immediately went back to their unwanted behavior. No one wants their content and they do it on purpose. How would you handle this?
If you have no standards, you get abuse. The problem with Voat is the exact opposite of Reddit, just an extreme in the opposite direction.
There is an unfortunate side effect to standing up for principles. You will always end up defending the fringe people who you don't actually like or agree with.
I think I would maybe just blanket ban pictures or drawings of children. I'm sure this would spark a shitposting war over what actually qualified as a drawing of a child, and destroy and fracture the place. I really wish I could offer a simple solution.
Aside from that specific user, I still think you should narrowly define the difference between a system sub, a public sub, and a private sub. Public/private do not necessarily need to be completely standard-free, but we need a clear ruling. The feeling right now is that all public subs are basically system subs, and mods should only delete malicious content/spam.
I feel that Voat doesn't want to expand and acts accordingly.
I'm more concerned with the kind of people on the site, rather than how many of them there are. That's why more tools for users to oust undesirables and control their own community would act as a filter to select for quality
We expect people to be wise and mature as soon as they arrive
most people end up here because the admins on reddit deleted the things they post and banned them, all were asking for is that when people come here they don't treat those here like the admins of reddit treated them
I don't have a lot of faith in assimilation personally, but teaching also takes those willing to listen and if this minecraft guy had his listening ears on he might've stopped making bad moves and provoking more bad reactions at an earlier point. Understanding takes trust, and trust requires insurance in case the trust is betrayed.
true, but decisions you make under that kind of duress are made in the moment and are very primal, and the way one acts when they don't spend much time thinking through or planning their actions ahead of time in many ways can be said to be closer than our inherent nature as a person. It can't always be said that the way we present ourselves is who we truly are, but the way we are when caught unpresentable can often be very honest.
I mill lowers out on the regular. Same with glock gen 3s on the 80% kits.
If you are within USA I suggest CBC industries and Sanders Armory.
When I get enough cash I will mill one of my AR10 lowers and make me a serious reach out and touchem gun. We will have constitutional carry here in Oklahoma Nov 1st, and this white one will be my carry gun.
I have found that an AR15 that is not black or FDE isn’t seen as frightening to people.
This is the wives and people are actually very receptive to it and don’t see it as scary as mine.
it was a brand new sub now, but it wouldn't always remain that way and it it grew into a problem later it would've been harder to deal with. The site is full of conspiracy theorists are you honestly expecting people not to be paranoid and not to jump at shadows that spark their paranoia?
right, but the mod should govern with the consent of the users. The mods shouldn't be the ones who decide the "way it sees fit" for the whole community, at least not without the input and oversight of their userbase
That's a brand new sub that someone decided to 'test' right away, and the mod saw his excitement shit on and deleted it. Who wouldn't feel this way?
I see your point concerning large subs but isn't this different? Who is the community in this scenario? And isn't this the opposite of a power mod... Isn't this a mod that is undersiege by the community?
And forgive me if I'm getting the details wrong. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
right, but the impetus to do so is concern that the mod will go on to act like a power mod. If the users of the sub could depose him themselves this would be a needless concern. Give the users of the sub more power and power modding will be beneath concern and thus easier to ignore. I'm not saying what happens on v/protectvoat or the results of such is right, I'm talking specifically about the main or at least the most justifiable motivations behind it.
People don't want power mods abusing the mod tools here.
What I'm asking for would address the underlying concern, thus removing the cause itself so we won't need to worry anymore about the effect in this cause effect scenario. users of v/protectvoat act the way they do to prevent power mods, if the users had power over their mods then power mods will be dealt with internally by the subverse, thus no one will need to be as concerned by mod behavior, thus actions predicated on this concern and the problems those actions cause will be overwhelmingly less likely
This particular situation reminds me of a child who puts their finger in someone face and repeats "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." then gets punched. Who caused it?
We can all be better. Even me. That's how life works.
Voat changed me greatly, but it took a while for me to learn my faults. So it is with each of us.
I wonder what would have happened if I was run off when I first came to Voat as a user? There wouldn't be a Voat today. This is perhaps why we should be a little more understanding.
it would be easier to be understanding if there was less risk in doing so, we gave mods on reddit the benefit of the doubt and when that turned out poorly. If you want us to trust people in similar positions now give the people here a way to deal with them if "being understanding" doesn't work out again
as long as the other kid can punch back they'll sort it out themselves, and that's basically what happened here the annoying kid punched a lot harder though. I'm asking for you to give them a better way to solve their disputes so they'll stop hurting each other.
Maybe there needs to be like some sort of trial period where a subverse is somewhat limited to keep users from making mistakes like this. I know that will set off a lot of alarms for goats but hear me out. This has happened three times now in recent memory, and I don't know about the last two but this one was completely avoidable. It's unreasonable for people who have never been a mod before or owned a sub to understand how voat works or why exactly we are so strict on certian issues like not deleting posts. I guarantee this guy didn't know about private subs.
Perhaps a new sub can be automatically set to private, then default to public after a week. Or maybe make it impossible for mods to delete posts in a new sub for a few days. That alone would avoid a lot of stupid misunderstandings.
If that would be the case, then you guys can just mass downvoat spam him and his sub to get them both removed after the trial period. Not everyone is going to be like that. Most people would probably learn quickly and fit in. They at least deserve a chance. You absolutely cannot expect a new user to come here and instantly know the site culture and why we do stuff the way we do.
We really should have a little critical thought on this. At this point people are just downvoating him just to downvoat him, I doubt they even read all the posts and understand what is going on.
but @Mumbleberry didn't ever actually call for any downvoating, he just posted the modlog and called attention to this guys behavior. Unless you have evidence of incitement people are responsible for only their own behavior and it's not really a "brigade" if it's individual users acting and making descisions each on their own.
I didn't say Mumbleberry called for downvoating or brigading, I said
At this point people are just downvoating him just to downvoat him
which I think is definitely true. I did say "brigading" in another comment. I don't think every person who was downvoating Coors or the subverse read through all the ban logs and enough of his comments to make a proper opinion on it, they just see the PV posts and downvoat all of his stuff. Yeah, you guys can't control the actions of every user, but you're also very aware of what happens. And there are multiple posts on the matter, not just one.
I got three downvoats on this comment for no reason. https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126969/17706110
Certainly that's proof enough that people are spamming downvoats without actually knowing why or having a reason. I don't think they downvoated me because they dislike v/thegreatoutdoors.
That's pretty much what brigading is, using your sub and making posts to target a user an his subverse. I don't think he should be banned or anything, I'm just calling it like it is.
people are just downvoating him just to downvoat him
but if everyone is deciding to do so on their own what's wrong with it, they have a right to voat on content. With no intentional or coordinated effort I don't see a problem.
I didn't say Mumbleberry called for downvoating or brigading
That's pretty much what brigading is, using your sub and making posts to target a user an his subverse.
really making use of both side of your mouth here. But the behavior you're looking at appears emergent rather then conspiratorial (in the sense of people working together to do something) uncoordinated individual actions do not a brigade make, you're calling it how you want to see it and not like it is at least in so far as what you can demonstrate.
Yeah, you guys can't control the actions of every user, but you're also very aware of what happens.
what happens is people make their own decisions and act independently which is only their own individual responsibility not anyone else's.
Maybe you guys could have explained what he was doing wrong instead of just mass downvoating him and sending him petty insults. I get it, you want to crush any censorship, but the guy mostly believes what "we" do and he did say he hasn't been a mod before. It's not like he was trying to subvert voat and make an upvoating farm or anything. I think if we had a rational discussion with him and explained why deleting posts is overall more harmful even if those posts have nothing to do with his subverse, this whole situation could have been avoided and we could have had a cool place for people who like Minecraft. I don't even play it.
That seems more like a threat than a rational explaination. You could have said something like "you're better off not deleting stuff because upholding the principle of non-censorship is more important than having off-topic posts." Yeah, you didn't have to, but a little calm and kindness goes a long way.
Vindicator ago
This is reasonable -- especially since Removed submissions still show up via Search. It allows mods to remove off topic submissions, and protects comments from being censored.
Vindicator ago
Kev, you should write a post explaining your philosophy on this (which I think is shared by many on Voat).
The problem is that new folks come here, get excited, create a subverse about something they are passionate about, and then if it gets any traction at all it becomes the target of shills and trolls and when they try to do something about it, they end up triggering the Voat immune system. There are tools given to O's and M's by the platform which the unwritten rules of Voat forbid you to use. It's very confusing for new folks and often looks like hypocrisy to them. An explanation...maybe even a Voat Constitution and Bill of Rights...would go a long way to preventing unnecessary goat wars.
892734jhfs2 ago
people who say kek are retards
whats next lmaowtfbbq? welcome to 2019 fuckface
oiseaulibre ago
Why can't he police his sub the way he wants? You guys go there specifically to start trouble and sperg out when he reacts to it.
892734jhfs2 ago
the only faggot is you kevdude
892734jhfs2 ago
@puttitout
voat manip right here better ban him
892734jhfs2 ago
nothing like a PV brigade, oh thats right you nothing about do you
it actually wasn't that bad, its why i stopped. you were baiting me into shit
Rule#2 never trust kevdud @puttitout
892734jhfs2 ago
you are killing voat tho
zyklon_b ago
RIGHT WING UPVOTE SQUADS
98794234hkasdf ago
hey member when you asked me to brirage a user!!!!!
@puttitout
98794234hkasdf ago
dont fuck with me kevdud
oiseaulibre ago
He said he couldn't do that. He said there was a timer that said he needed to wait 45 hours or something when he tried to make it private.
The thing is, people who weren't players on his server were abusing his subverse to get a reaction so PV could do what it always does and censor a guy with downvoats and drive people away from the site. But, if they weren't players on that Minecraft server, what the hell were they doing there to begin with? Seems like PV went out of it's way to censor this guy, destroy his subverse, and hurt voat as a whole by continuing to drive decent people from the site. Good job protecting voat guys, congratulations.
98794234hkasdf ago
you are the one that want people to leave to leave site @puttiout
srishi0802 ago
<a href="https://www.sitegalleria.com/seo-services">SEO services in Bangalore</a>.
KDs_Other_Burner ago
Reddit is great - if you're a left wing retard, a nigger or just enjoy talking to bots and foreign shills.
SchwazaRifleCoffeeCo ago
ProtectVoat is nothing more than SRS. Talk about leaving reddit behind... bitches REEE over anything
Inaminit ago
You get what you pray for... Always.
iwasthey ago
There's no going back to Reddit once you stroll around in here. Leave his shit up. He'll get destroyed.
B-------D ago
@stonetoss ha ha ha ha
dianemdeath ago
I'm on Reddit to see photos of horses and dogs! Really that's it. I'm pretty sure those subjects, I found the end of the internet on Pinterest so I had to find a new place for my daily fix!
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
steal their horse and dog pics and post them here, my dude. As long as you're not one of them furry freaks that wants to fuck horses and dogs of course.
Derpfroot ago
That nigger b& me for linking to ban logs after someone asked to see them. I hate banfags.
Fullmetal ago
NEVER!
Glory_Beckons ago
Why did you all start spamming some random guy's sub for his personal Minecraft server with off-topic junk in the first place?
And why is Voat blindly supporting downvoat brigading an insignificant, non-political gaming sub?
CameraCode ago
My comment here: https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126969/17706110 got downvoated as well. I was just talking about a good outdoors subverse that voat has. I don't care about the downvoats, what I do care about is mindlessly attacking a subverse and everyone who commented in it because of a mod who didn't even care about moderating it and deleted off-topic posts because he didn't want that to be the first thing people see when they get on the sub.
parnellsUprising ago
Tips fucking fedora /s
oiseaulibre ago
You guys are such fucking faggots. Let him have his Minecraft sub.
TheTrigger ago
Not if he's gonna be a cunt about it. It sets a bad precedent. It's like how if doctors find even a teensy benign tumor in your boob, they'll still cut it out when it starts to grow a little, just to be sure. Who knows, maybe it never kills you. But it's there. And it's growing.
CameraCode ago
He wasn't being a cunt about it. The first post he deleted that started all of this was this one. https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126979
Totally uncalled for to post that. He wasn't doing anything to warrant that post. And he said he deleted it because he didn't want a sub with only two other posts to have spam on it, nut just because he was butthurt. That post absolutely WAS spam, the claim that it was a test to see if he was a corrupt mod or not is just dumb.
Then you guys (or PV, idk if you specifically were included) dogpiled him, started mass downvoating him and the sub, and insulted him. He wasn't trying to subvert voat or anything, he had been a user for 5 months with no problems and the only reason he was mod of that was because he created it because no one else had. I guarantee if %90 of goats had been in that situation they would have done the same thing. I'm not saying it was the right thing for him to do, but I understand why he reacted the way he did.
PistonRingFinger ago
Yeah that's some bullshit, I was seeing this also. This is how you kill a young platform before it ever takes off, there's no need to be so hostile towards new users and communities. /v/DestroyVoat is a cancer
Inaminit ago
He's got it, and the way he's going about it will make him the only one there.
oiseaulibre ago
He's not trying to recruit voaters, it's a subverse for his private Minecraft server because their subreddit got shoahed. You retards attacked it to "protect voat". It's a subverse for an existing Minecraft server, the mod should be able to police it how he wants since it's literally about his server. Same with @stonetoss. You retards actually chase away decent redpilled people by acting like autistic gatekeepers.
Inaminit ago
Fine, make it private by invitation only... Or maybe, just maybe ask?
CameraCode ago
He probably didn't even know private subverses we're a thing, and I think I remember him saying that it couldn't be set to private until it was 48 hours old. Could be wrong on that last part. Anyway you guys were way out of line on this one.
Inaminit ago
I beg to differ. The guy was belligerent and banning for no reason other than he was in a position to do it. I was there.
AfricanZionSafari ago
If you leave reddit, stop being a faggot.
Ezekiel_Balderdash ago
You can get the faggot out of the reddit, but you can't get the faggot out of the faggot.
Because, you know, that's how faggots work.
Momo_Applebach ago
I've had two people with accts over a year old block me because what I said made them mad. If you ask me, that's reddit tier behavior. What's more reddit-y about it is that they replied to me saying "blocked!"
Just reminds me of squeakers in vidya lobbies yelling "reportid!!!1"
BentAxel ago
Just two? I've had a few block me on Subs I've never been to. I guess it could be the same person using different alts? Are there that many faggots out there?
shrink ago
BLOCKED, FAGGOT
Ugh I can't even, I'm gonna go cool down in my safe space trigger corner, I am like so tired of fucking bigots goddamn everywhere
TheTrigger ago
To be fair, I say that every now and then, ironically. So maybe they are, too.
Artofchoke ago
Anybody who says that shit, does that shit, is a little faggot who isn't going to be welcomed here, and isn't likely to stay long.
GapingAnus ago
It's a step up from standard reddit tier behavior. At least they recognize that it's their problem and they have to deal with it.
Doing so by blocking or muting, and especially announcing it as if it matters, is childish and petulant but it's better than the typical millennial approach of appealing to outside authority to deplatform people whose opinions they don't like.
Deplorablepoetry ago
I’ve had someone tell me they were gonna call the cops on me!
Pretty sure it was a cop!
Even on the internet the faggots need to call for back-up! Ha ha ha ha!
Oh, also, I don’t know how to block anyone but I’ll figure it out and block you just for fun!
Fuck you faggot!
BLOCKED
PS: how do you block?
Artofchoke ago
The block function is for cunts
Who'd be better served by shunts
Their brains are too small
There's no room at all
For our freedom, ideas, and stunts.
Duchozz ago
Fuck off with this Reddit tier faggot rhyming shit too
Artofchoke ago
Poetry is for everyone you ignorant nigger.
fuckingpasswordsman ago
I want this framed and hanging on my wall.
Artofchoke ago
LOL THAT'S BEAUTIFUL
Deplorablepoetry ago
Ignorance is bliss for those whom dismiss ideals straight off the cuff of their sleeve
Style defines the brightest of minds as they leave an iridescent glow of enlightenment
Artofchoke ago
I love you. ♡
sometaters ago
Oh man I love when people do that and I'm with my buddies in TF2. We'll be as cancerous as possible and anybody that says "muted" or tells us to shut the fuck up, we kick. On official Valve servers only. I'd hate to do that on a personal server.
Phantom42 ago
You guys play TF2? I have it, never really got into it though.
FridayJones ago
The real fun was back in the Nineties with the original Quakeworld Teamfortress using Gamespy to connect. The first couple of generations of 3D cards came out about that time, so one day you'd be rocking 320x240x16 on an S3 chipset and the next you'd be playing the same maps with a better framerate at 640x480x32 with shadowed textures and hardware rendering using Glide on a Monster3D card. It was like falling into the game and living in it. I probably still have dreams about 2Forts.
The best QWTF server was Red Dwarf. Shoutout to the boys!
carlip ago
You some kinda faggot with no voodoo3?
FridayJones ago
I was queer for my Diamond Monster 3D card. With pass-through!
NiggerVirus ago
Mommy I'm telling
fuckinghell ago
It might be a good idea to list the values we preach.
CameraCode ago
No, apparently we want them to fail so we can downvoat and crush them even if they agree with our beliefs or can be converted to them.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
1 - Gas Kikes
2 - Hang Niggers
3 - Race War Now
Inaminit ago
You kiss your Mother with a mouth like that? What are you, NSA?
Inaminit ago
1- Don't shit where you eat.
TheRealAmalek ago
2- Don't be a kike
Asashio ago
"if you leave California, leave your bad habits."
We all know how this goes.
MortonLoothorKodos ago
If you leave Latin America, leave your bad habits
LOL that'll work!
iLuvJews ago
The people who are ruining Voat are the people spamming/attacking stonetoss and watchpeopledie verses and sub.
moarzor ago
They must go back.
Inaminit ago
I actually brought good habits to California... It couldn't help a lost cause.
GutterTrash ago
Good luck effectively curing cancer.
path ago
So you have the cure and satanists block it so they can keep making profit from suffering?
Inaminit ago
There's only one kind of cancer at Voat and we have a cure for it.
dtaraasdfasdf ago
why dont you just wait until the pv goon squad doesnt like what they do, then lie about them, then downvoat brigade them to nothing?
That the protectvoat way @puttitout
oiseaulibre ago
They literally downvoated @Coors_Nationalist to the point where he can't vote, post, or comment. Who is the real censor? The guy who has a sub for a specific Minecraft server and doesn't want his sub filled with off topic garbage? Or the people who take away his ability to use the website? @PuttItOut, this is a problem I've touched on over the years. If someone isn't a spammer but just isn't liked or has "the wrong opinions" they are prevented from using the site.
Possible solution: an appeal process where someone downvoated to oblivion can have their site privileges returned to them.
dtaraasdfasdf ago
i would have helped @Coors_Nationalist from there brigades had I known
Inaminit ago
If you see someone setting the house on fire, do you hose his ass or not? Acting nasty without cause is not how one should gain acceptance of the mob. It's sort of like being in a MOSH PIT, it's all fun & games until someone gets hurt, so if you're fragile it's best not to jump in because all you're going to accomplish is fucking up a good time.
PuttItOut ago
This is an issue, it is an exploit in our system. I've never once denied this.
Sub owners should run their subs how they want. But then Voat users should vote how they want. See the problem? Which group are you going to target?
How I see it: 90%+ of these cases involve someone conducting themselves in a fashion incompatible with Voat's principles, or they are hostile and prideful in their conduct/communication. Both scenarios indicate an unwise person.
It would be ideal if Voat lived and let live, but that will never happen because Voat is filled with people that test and abuse in order to claim a trespass. Voat is right in the end though... Those with incompatible principles never assimilate. In this way I'm proud, but I do wish Voat was more measured in their response rather than going nuclear immediately. This drastic attack based response is a sign of immaturity on the part of Voat and actually works against Voat in the end. I wish Voat was wise enough to see this perspective.
Pretty sure @stonetoss took off because of a similar situation.
dtaraasdfasdf ago
either limit the number downvoats, or add a cooldown on the amount a person can be downvoated per 24 hours or show who is downvoating (im acutally on fence about this one, one could just make a downvoat alts)
I think the cooldown method is still the greatest, cap it at like -15 the only ones that downvoat anyways are spineless losers on a power trip
dtaraasdfasdf ago
but you banned me for defending against it, there simple logic tells me you mind it.
CameraCode ago
My problem with this is that it seems completely unnecessary. The guy had an account for five months with no problems and used it regularly. He didn't even care about being a mod of the place, and wanted to give it to the old mod from Reddit if he wanted it. He said the reason he deleted the posts was because he didn't want people to be turned away or confused if most of the posts on the sub didn't have anything to do with Minecraft. Yeah it was misguided, but he was doing what he thought was best for the sub even if it was wrong.
And then it just snowballs out of control and people were immediately insulting him and mass downvoating him and the subverse.
It was good in the case of the animemes thing, but in this case it's just a mostly normal dude who made a dumb mistake.
PuttItOut ago
Isn't it how the mistake is handled? Handling a mistake correctly involves humility and wisdom. Most don't have this and react by doubling down out of pride. It is a sign of a small and hurt person.
In the Voat sense, they become an enemy of the people (aka the mob) and it just gets worse from this point.
CameraCode ago
If only people with humility and wisdom could use Voat, we would have a grand total of about 12 users. Probably more but you get the idea. I'm not a prideful person, but there are plenty of days where I might have responded poorly like him.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
if you act poorly, respond to criticism poorly, and respond to the reaction to your overall behavior poorly, ad infinitum bad decisions stack, maybe it's reflective of the kind of person and more pertinently the kind of mod you are, rather that the day you're having
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
all I want is for the users to control the site and have oversight over the mods. v/protectvoat basically accomplishes this but it's the users in general controlling the whole site and in an ad hoc manner which is sub-optimal. The common man needs leverage over those who he would trust to rule over him, otherwise he has no recourse if that trust was betrayed.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
just add a system so users can remove subverse mods themselves without you needing to step in. Make it based on the users subverse CCP and SCP so other users can't abuse it. The site is based on voting and democracy so we should have a democratic system by which to depose power mods. Rather than siding with either give the users more agency and power themselves so the mods can't abuse the power they already have relative to them.
PuttItOut ago
We will have this soon.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
I look forward to it, I think a site like this should belong to it's users and the mods should just work for them. I'd like to see the site be structured in this way. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll leave mod behavior alone on subverses I don't use as long as I know the users of the sub can manage the mods themselves. there is the worry of people abusing such a system with alt accounts or collaborators but that's a bridge that can be crossed later
PuttItOut ago
I designed the feature with abuse as a constant. It should work fairly well. :)
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. ;)
PuttItOut ago
Always
oiseaulibre ago
Thanks for the quick response. I understand both sides and see your dilemma. @stonetoss is a good guy. Chasing people like him away is not good for voat. I understand people attacking a powermod of a sub that is used for a more general purpose, but when someone has a personal subverse like this, the freedom to moderate how they see fit should be more important. I know you probably won't have any solution anytime soon, but thanks for acknowledging the issue. I don't think voat will be able to ever grow much without this being addressed.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
the users of the subverse should decide what they want for the sub, the mod just works for them. If the janitor gets too uppity he should lose his job.
oiseaulibre ago
He literally created a sub for his own mincraft server. If I wanted to create a sub for my band, I'd want to control the sub.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
if your band had say 4 members and you were the only one with mod privileges I'd argue the other 3 members should have some recourse if you used those privileges to screw them over on the subverse that ought to belong to all 4 of you. The problem is you think of it as your band even though the other members also have a right to it and why should the simply trust you with no insurance especially when you come off so self-centered. A community online belongs to it's users and the forum they populate belongs to the community, the person moderating it is tasked with representing them and working to create the site they want to use rather than everything simply being his
oiseaulibre ago
That's a strawman of what my point was. Anyways, his server = his subverse. If you want your own server, then you can have your own subverse. The only purpose anyone would use his sub if they're on his Minecraft server. Anyone who mods the server should mod the subverse in the way they see fit. Nobody posts about SBBH banning people from their sub. They should totally be able to though, it's their sub.
98794234hkasdf ago
this is what they do man, I cant begin to tell you how how many accounts they targeted me on and downvoated me to shit. They sit in a chatroom and say downvoat this guy.... I would even put past they have private verse for such operations.
reminder @kevdude asked me before to brigade for him, only to upvoat (only what i would do) tho, and I DM you saying I was going to putt. Who to say he doesnt ask people to downvoat for him? @puttiout
who is the real manipulator here? Is it one person protecting from your self amiddited flaw in your system, or the cancer causing it? @zyklon_b
this is why people are leaving, voat ISNT free speech its collectivism/authoritarianism
There is very few of us old active goats here left... dude they think downvoating is free speech @puttitout
When everything about downvoting is about censorship (self admitted by you putt)
its too early for me to get pissed im stopping now. get your shit together putt, you lost alot but this shit has got to end. I have an account rebuilding, im sure you know.
this downvoating bullshit based on mob rule needs to fucking end
https://youtu.be/0MjyGPp__-w
zyklon_b ago
hey komrade
its far more organized with the paid posters but since angel saved us all they get paid in is amazon giftcards
98794234hkasdf ago
i waged a war bother.... i had a dream with you other, it was sweet. i will continue to fight
zyklon_b ago
well komrade the puppies are doin well. live in new home now
98794234hkasdf ago
i will fight for you @puttitout
zyklon_b ago
HEIL PUTTLER
98794234hkasdf ago
+1
zyklon_b ago
my life suffocates planting the seeds of hate
98794234hkasdf ago
https://youtu.be/El-STG2szVM
98794234hkasdf ago
hmm wise words,
you know my shit bro, im here if need to talk
im here for you
oiseaulibre ago
Is this Cheeselane?
98794234hkasdf ago
this is what they do.... i spoke about this countless times... hopefully @puttitout will now take attention to the matter.
i dont want anyone banned.... there just needs to be a change in the voting system, its fucked in the current state
everyone one of us old goats knows it, it should be #1 priority for @puttitout
cooldown on accounts for down voats
oiseaulibre ago
The PV drama is one of the main reasons I left the site for a while. This shit drives people away. It's good to see you're still around man.
98794234hkasdf ago
i got you
https://youtu.be/UpVkvWjRYzk
98794234hkasdf ago
i aint giving up
98794234hkasdf ago
yeah bro, ive missed you
oiseaulibre ago
<3
98794234hkasdf ago
love youe too
we will git thru this brother @puttitout
I will tak the hit
https://youtu.be/08_O9IAKMKA
im very clear, i know i sbbh ties these fuckers has been out on line
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
I'd argue the server and the subverse rightful belong to the community that uses them as a whole and not solely to the janitor they employ
oiseaulibre ago
I'd say that's a case by case basis. Something like /v/hockey or /v/Chicago should 100% be community driven, but a sub for a particular Minecraft server seems like it should be run by the people who run the server or at the very least the people who play on the server. People were up in arms about him banning people who weren't players on the server, they had no business using that subverse in the first place.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
there you go, we're in agreement
oiseaulibre ago
Ok, then why did ProtectVoat attack the sub and sperg out afterwards?
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
someone made a single shitpost to see what the mod would do, he immediately deleted it and several comments and banned anyone who had a problem with that. Then they made a post on protect voat pointing out that this happened and linking to the modlogs as proof. The mod responded to this by getting into the comments to scream and cry about how because of his dignity as a fascist wouldn't allow anyone making fun of him while people mostly either made fun of him or tried to explain basic concepts about the principal of free speech to him. He continued to sperg out and most of the downvoats he got (the "brigade" as you call it) were the ones he got on that thread arguing with people making fun of him while he explained how he was literally and unironically against free speech.
I'm not sure what he expected or what you think should've happened here, but outside of the original shitpost, everything that happened to him was only a result of his own behavior and poor decision making skills
892734jhfs2 ago
youre 100% correct your sub your rules @puttitout
its not PV determination what you should say or do on on voat
PuttItOut ago
This is exactly why Voat hasn't grown. Voat is its own worst enemy, we just don't acknowledge it.
There is no solution from where I stand as any solution will remove freedoms from one party.
This is ultimately the issue with all public goods... How can you offer freedom without limiting it?
I obviously do not have a solution, but this scenario is the root of all Voat's problems as a community. We solve this, or grow past it as a whole, we would be unstoppable.
dtaraasdfasdf ago
voat does limit it, wtf im proof... this account only has 4 more comments to have my say. that is by definition limiting.
I cannot submit posts nor PM people... bullshit
dtaraasdfasdf ago
I had and helped countless people against the good squad, whoops I got banned
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
the solution is giving users a means to oppose power mods themselves thus making them the constituents of their favorite subverses
PuttItOut ago
We will have this shortly, but how would have this feature solve this current issue?
Isn't this about a private subverse who's mod deleted something designed to be deleted by the author for the purpose of creating this exact situation?
dtaraasdfasdf ago
voat will die if this happens and will be over with alts, mark my words
it will be worse than reddit
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
basically what happened here at least as I understand this, is a user posted what could be described as a shit test.
https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126979
the motivation behind this, (though I won't deny people do this for fun), is basically as follows;
it's intended to provoke a reaction. Assumedly the mod will just ignore people making fun of him, the users of the sub will downvoat unrelated or unwanted content and everyone moves on, but what happened was the mod deleted the post and various comments and banned people just for making fun of him. If he'll delete posts and comments just because random people on the internet make fun of him, who's to say he won't censor other content he doesn't like?
If the users of his sub could deal with any issues of such nature themselves there'd be little or at least less motivation for any sort of watchdog-esque group to step in on their behalf or out of their concern. Rather than letting power mods run subs how they want, give users the tools to be sure the mods run the subverse they want to use. Users get the subs they want, and mods get punished if they abuse the moderation tools they're trusted with.
Doing this would negate the necessity of the original motivation that kicked this whole, and similar, fiascos off.
PuttItOut ago
But this is a niche sub. It should be allowed to govern itself in any way it sees fit. And that includes removing content that is purposefully malicious.
Voat's promise is that we won't ban (harm) users from the entire site over speech, but this doesn't work for small niche subs. Standards are good. Shit posts are noise.
I made my v/BestSubInHistoryEver authorized only for this very reason.
heygeorge ago
Yet, essentially a portion of the Voat user base made the site nearly unusable for this coors kid. So the next step is to let the pitchfork and torch crowd have more power!
This place is strange yet awesome.
...
Maybe some day, Voat will transition to a more republican philosophy.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
actually i said it should be based on subverse CPP so the power is in the hands of the actual users of the subverse rather than exclusively in the mods, v/protectvoat is basically users of the site in general trying to rein in the mods of the whole site, if there was a reliable option for users of a specific subverse to deal with potential problems after they occur you wouldn't see people trying to deal with potential problems before they occur
PuttItOut ago
Voat has long been a science experiment to me.
I can solve this issue but it opens the door to other evils of which I don't know which is worse.
heygeorge ago
Sounds ominous. You’re better off just letting the rabble continue to rabble. There has to be some slight uptick in growth, no? Or maybe we lost a bunch of Aussies and Kiwis and that is not helping.
Can someone explain to me why @Rainy-Day-Dream keeps harping about Voat Votes? As if this great idea hasn’t been in development/development hell for something like two years?
While I have you, on a scale of 1-10, how pissed is our anal going to be when I deface their advertisement?
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
basically how I see it is currently the inmates at large are running the whole asylum, whenever a warden steps out of line at all they riot and immediately try to kill him, even if he's only recently been hired. This has led to an all time low of inmate abuse relative to other asylums the inmates were transferred in from, but the asylum itself isn't functioning very well in a lot of ways.
so what I propose is that each individual ward be run only by the inmates in it, and they be given a legal recourse to deal with mistreatment so they don't immediately try to resort to violence.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
cleaning up spam is one thing, but generally deciding what content shows up on the front of the subverse is what the voating system is for not what mod deletions and bans are for. The users of the subverse should have whatever subverse they want, the mods are just there to clean it up for them. The users own the sub and the community, the mod is just their volunteer janitor, who they should be able to dismiss if he does his job improperly to their standards.
PuttItOut ago
https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/modlog/submission
Tell me honestly if you feel any of those submissions deserve not to be deleted.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
non of them imo, i think people would've just downvoated them, then it's outta site outta mind. No need for the mod to get involved, tell me if you honestly feel people should be banned from the subverse just for making fun of the guy in charge of it
PuttItOut ago
Abuse is abuse. I have zero sympathy for a guy looking for a fight being knocked out.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
is making fun of someone looking for a fight? it'd be hard to get by on the internet without a tolerance for banter. When this subverse got populated if the users poked fun at or disagreed with their mod, would that also be "looking for a fight"? these are the kind concerns that motivate the behavior on v/protectvoat, which would be unnessecary if the users could deal with the mod causing any problems on their own.
I'm not saying v/protectvoat is a good solution to dealing with or in this case preventing power mods, but it's the one we have until you provide us with alternative measures. Remember that people ended up on voat because of the way admins and mods on reddit ran roughshod over them and abused them and they had no recourse to stop them besides leaving. People here are paranoid about the way mods act in their position as mods, but it's not as if they don't have a good reason to worry about it.
PuttItOut ago
I understand your point.
This situation is a bit different though. As I see it, this is about abuse, not censorship. A distinction has to be drawn somewhere.
It is truly 'noid' behavior.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
the "abuse" was basically someone fishing for censorship though, and the did find it as people were banned outright just for making fun of the mod and commenting on his behavior. I'm defending their intentions more than I am their actions, because if you provide another avenue for users to act of those intentions they won't need to undertake the actions in question which are the abuse you're rightly concerned with.
Treat the disease rather than the symptoms and the disease in this situation and many similar instances is concern about potential power mod behavior and censorship, which is a concern that can be dealt with and acted upon in better ways than it was today if you give people the ability to do so.
PuttItOut ago
Exactly… someone looking for a fight. Seek and you shall find.
And it was a minecraft subverse. Come on, let's get real here. Mine. Craft.
It doesn't make one party right and the other wrong, it makes both parties at fault.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
right and I'm not asking you to side with either, side instead with the users potential or otherwise of subverses to come so this doesn't happen again. Give them the power to deal with any problems their mods may or do cause and then people won't have to worry about it, taking the wind out of the sails of the occasionally justified paranoia that caused all of this avoiding the conflict all together in the future. Once power mods aren't something to worry about people won't have a motivation to abuse mods to check whether or not they are such anymore, because even if they end up being such the users will be able to handle it with no outside intervention preemptive or otherwise so once this is the case they'll be a lot less likely to bother stirring up trouble like this. I'm not taking so much about which side is right or wrong or more at fault as how we can avoid the problem all together going forward.
AR47 ago
Boss what I said wasn’t a shit test or to provoke a reaction. It was the truth. I deleted very little in my time as a moderator and only one person.
Sanegoatiswear which I think you and I can agree on needed it.
The subs are never the creators and always the subscribers which is something atko made clear the day he told us all to make subverses.
My feelings are and have always been that when someone begins to delete comments and ban people it deserves to be called out, and even I was, but I was found right in the discourse of public opinion.
PuttItOut ago
This was a brand new sub, less than a day old. There is no community in which to speak. It's a niche sub for a particularly narrow purpose and target audience. It has every right to remove shit posts imo. Having standards is not censorship, posting off topic content is an abuse of the principals we hold.
You wouldn't stand for this in real life. Build a park for your kids to play. Post a sign letting the community know its for everyone's enjoyment. Now the homeless move in. Tent city. Trash everywhere. Can't remove them or it would violate your values, right? What happens to the park? Who would let their kids play there? How would you solve this? Creating rules? Enforcing rules? Standards are real. They matter.
Tell me where I'm wrong.
Better yet, go create a sub with good intentions. I'll destroy whatever chances you have to create something of value and claim it's Free Speech. I can do it to you too while hiding behind the protections of Free Speech.
You have a point in concerns to established subs and new mods, but this is quite different considering, don't you think?
AR47 ago
I think that this is your house and you make the rules, and set the standard.
As well as expected behavior.
Good to know.
MinorLeakage ago
I don't love your example of the park, because there are many existing laws that wouldn't allow the exact use you are describing. If the park is truly for anyone's use, with no other governing rules, then you'd be a foolish idealist to think children could play there. Free speech is kind of the same thing. It's going to attract the best and the worst, but certainly not the casuals.
This guy specifically went wrong when he started being ban happy on comments moreso than any posts (in my own opinion). Voat seems to be of the opinion that comments should be left alone in non-private subs, and the community should up/down vote them for ranking. I personally like this philosophy, though it isn't an official rule.
I offered this gentleman my own opinion, that he should leave comments alone or he would get destroyed by the response. He deleted that comment.
I guess we have fundamentally different viewpoints, since I don't feel like we have to grow, and you'd likely prefer that we did (which is perfectly reasonably).
PuttItOut ago
I'll give you that the park example isn't a direct match, but it does have similarities.
And here is the issue. I feel that Voat doesn't want to expand and acts accordingly. My view is that truth must have as many eyes on it as possible. I got involved with Voat to make the world a better place by promising not to censor the inconvenient aspects of humanity and evil. We can't change the world if we run everyone off. We expect people to be wise and mature as soon as they arrive, this is an unrealistic expectation.
I also lack knowledge of the comment deletions. All I can say is when Voat targets you, most people react by going nuclear. Doesn't make it right, but humans react this way by default.
MinorLeakage ago
As much as I respect you, I don't often envy you. A bit of the old "heavy lies the crown" comes to mind.
I think at some point YOU have to draw a clear line about whether a niche sub has to be private if the mods want to be heavy-handed. And honestly, as you already said, the community doesn't have to respect that, unless you start removing more voting freedoms as well. That will obviously set off a cascading effect of censorship and bans until we might as well be Reddit.
It also begs the question, is Voat (a place seemingly dedicated to freedom of expression) an appropriate place for niche and hobby subs? And who has to compromise if it is?
I was a huge fan of /u/LockeProposal and /v/HistoryAnecdotes which was well established and frequented when it was run off using similar tactics. This question is not a new one. I originally lamented losing that sub, but I've actually come around to the idea that free expression is supposed to be the defining feature.
Maybe the recent banning of that pedophile we were all happy to see leave has hardened your resolve to tackle some of these sticky issues. That was also a very difficult and grey area. I'm happy in this case, but we all now see the potential for anyone to be banned.
Sorry for rambling a little. I think your non-interventionist approach has been great so far, but you may need to make a clear rule on this issue at some point. Can public subs have extremely heavy handed mods who ban you for personal reasons? SBBH and its offshoots all do this (mostly as a joke, but they still do it) all the time.
PuttItOut ago
Well I unbanned that user and they immediately went back to their unwanted behavior. No one wants their content and they do it on purpose. How would you handle this?
If you have no standards, you get abuse. The problem with Voat is the exact opposite of Reddit, just an extreme in the opposite direction.
Cuilrunnings ago
I don't understand why the voting system is viewed as insufficient to deal with this?
MinorLeakage ago
There is an unfortunate side effect to standing up for principles. You will always end up defending the fringe people who you don't actually like or agree with.
I think I would maybe just blanket ban pictures or drawings of children. I'm sure this would spark a shitposting war over what actually qualified as a drawing of a child, and destroy and fracture the place. I really wish I could offer a simple solution.
Aside from that specific user, I still think you should narrowly define the difference between a system sub, a public sub, and a private sub. Public/private do not necessarily need to be completely standard-free, but we need a clear ruling. The feeling right now is that all public subs are basically system subs, and mods should only delete malicious content/spam.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
I'm more concerned with the kind of people on the site, rather than how many of them there are. That's why more tools for users to oust undesirables and control their own community would act as a filter to select for quality
most people end up here because the admins on reddit deleted the things they post and banned them, all were asking for is that when people come here they don't treat those here like the admins of reddit treated them
PuttItOut ago
We have to teach them though. Teaching takes time and understanding.
I absolutely love the posts about users who have changed and grown, and this is what we prevent from happening by going Goat Bezerker right away.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
I don't have a lot of faith in assimilation personally, but teaching also takes those willing to listen and if this minecraft guy had his listening ears on he might've stopped making bad moves and provoking more bad reactions at an earlier point. Understanding takes trust, and trust requires insurance in case the trust is betrayed.
PuttItOut ago
Only argument I have is when under emotional influence, most people make regrettable decisions.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
true, but decisions you make under that kind of duress are made in the moment and are very primal, and the way one acts when they don't spend much time thinking through or planning their actions ahead of time in many ways can be said to be closer than our inherent nature as a person. It can't always be said that the way we present ourselves is who we truly are, but the way we are when caught unpresentable can often be very honest.
PuttItOut ago
~ Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
AR47 ago
This I agree on, and perhaps this is something to deal with at a later date and time?
PuttItOut ago
I'd say that if a mod is deleting relevant content then we have a major issue. If it's shit posts and abuse it falls into a different category.
AR47 ago
Alrighty I am glad to have your take on it, and that is only because I have never seen you say it.
I am going to go back to making a new AR 15.
Got me a 10.5 upper in 7.62x39. Going to call it my
AK-KK (going to paint it all white too)
What you think?
PuttItOut ago
Hey! AR10 or AR15? We should talk.
AR47 ago
AR15
I mill lowers out on the regular. Same with glock gen 3s on the 80% kits.
If you are within USA I suggest CBC industries and Sanders Armory.
When I get enough cash I will mill one of my AR10 lowers and make me a serious reach out and touchem gun. We will have constitutional carry here in Oklahoma Nov 1st, and this white one will be my carry gun.
I have found that an AR15 that is not black or FDE isn’t seen as frightening to people.
This is the wives and people are actually very receptive to it and don’t see it as scary as mine.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
it was a brand new sub now, but it wouldn't always remain that way and it it grew into a problem later it would've been harder to deal with. The site is full of conspiracy theorists are you honestly expecting people not to be paranoid and not to jump at shadows that spark their paranoia?
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
right, but the mod should govern with the consent of the users. The mods shouldn't be the ones who decide the "way it sees fit" for the whole community, at least not without the input and oversight of their userbase
PuttItOut ago
That's a brand new sub that someone decided to 'test' right away, and the mod saw his excitement shit on and deleted it. Who wouldn't feel this way?
I see your point concerning large subs but isn't this different? Who is the community in this scenario? And isn't this the opposite of a power mod... Isn't this a mod that is undersiege by the community?
And forgive me if I'm getting the details wrong. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
right, but the impetus to do so is concern that the mod will go on to act like a power mod. If the users of the sub could depose him themselves this would be a needless concern. Give the users of the sub more power and power modding will be beneath concern and thus easier to ignore. I'm not saying what happens on v/protectvoat or the results of such is right, I'm talking specifically about the main or at least the most justifiable motivations behind it.
People don't want power mods abusing the mod tools here.
What I'm asking for would address the underlying concern, thus removing the cause itself so we won't need to worry anymore about the effect in this cause effect scenario. users of v/protectvoat act the way they do to prevent power mods, if the users had power over their mods then power mods will be dealt with internally by the subverse, thus no one will need to be as concerned by mod behavior, thus actions predicated on this concern and the problems those actions cause will be overwhelmingly less likely
PuttItOut ago
I see both sides and this is what makes it hard.
This particular situation reminds me of a child who puts their finger in someone face and repeats "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." then gets punched. Who caused it?
Mumbleberry ago
I feel a little guilty now, but the guy could have taken it with a bit better.
PuttItOut ago
We can all be better. Even me. That's how life works.
Voat changed me greatly, but it took a while for me to learn my faults. So it is with each of us.
I wonder what would have happened if I was run off when I first came to Voat as a user? There wouldn't be a Voat today. This is perhaps why we should be a little more understanding.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
it would be easier to be understanding if there was less risk in doing so, we gave mods on reddit the benefit of the doubt and when that turned out poorly. If you want us to trust people in similar positions now give the people here a way to deal with them if "being understanding" doesn't work out again
PuttItOut ago
Voat will soon become entirely community managed.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
I'm glad it will, each community should manage itself rather than mods managing each community carte blanche with an angry mod managing the mods
Mumbleberry ago
Good advice. Thanks boss.
PuttItOut ago
Spammers deserve it though! ;)
Mumbleberry ago
No doubt on that!
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
as long as the other kid can punch back they'll sort it out themselves, and that's basically what happened here the annoying kid punched a lot harder though. I'm asking for you to give them a better way to solve their disputes so they'll stop hurting each other.
CameraCode ago
Maybe there needs to be like some sort of trial period where a subverse is somewhat limited to keep users from making mistakes like this. I know that will set off a lot of alarms for goats but hear me out. This has happened three times now in recent memory, and I don't know about the last two but this one was completely avoidable. It's unreasonable for people who have never been a mod before or owned a sub to understand how voat works or why exactly we are so strict on certian issues like not deleting posts. I guarantee this guy didn't know about private subs.
Perhaps a new sub can be automatically set to private, then default to public after a week. Or maybe make it impossible for mods to delete posts in a new sub for a few days. That alone would avoid a lot of stupid misunderstandings.
boredTech ago
They just hibernate. Create sub, let people fill it with junk, when trial period over delete everything, rule with a reddit fist.
CameraCode ago
If that would be the case, then you guys can just mass downvoat spam him and his sub to get them both removed after the trial period. Not everyone is going to be like that. Most people would probably learn quickly and fit in. They at least deserve a chance. You absolutely cannot expect a new user to come here and instantly know the site culture and why we do stuff the way we do.
CameraCode ago
We really should have a little critical thought on this. At this point people are just downvoating him just to downvoat him, I doubt they even read all the posts and understand what is going on.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
but @Mumbleberry didn't ever actually call for any downvoating, he just posted the modlog and called attention to this guys behavior. Unless you have evidence of incitement people are responsible for only their own behavior and it's not really a "brigade" if it's individual users acting and making descisions each on their own.
CameraCode ago
I didn't say Mumbleberry called for downvoating or brigading, I said
which I think is definitely true. I did say "brigading" in another comment. I don't think every person who was downvoating Coors or the subverse read through all the ban logs and enough of his comments to make a proper opinion on it, they just see the PV posts and downvoat all of his stuff. Yeah, you guys can't control the actions of every user, but you're also very aware of what happens. And there are multiple posts on the matter, not just one.
I got three downvoats on this comment for no reason. https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3126969/17706110 Certainly that's proof enough that people are spamming downvoats without actually knowing why or having a reason. I don't think they downvoated me because they dislike v/thegreatoutdoors.
That's pretty much what brigading is, using your sub and making posts to target a user an his subverse. I don't think he should be banned or anything, I'm just calling it like it is.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
but if everyone is deciding to do so on their own what's wrong with it, they have a right to voat on content. With no intentional or coordinated effort I don't see a problem.
really making use of both side of your mouth here. But the behavior you're looking at appears emergent rather then conspiratorial (in the sense of people working together to do something) uncoordinated individual actions do not a brigade make, you're calling it how you want to see it and not like it is at least in so far as what you can demonstrate.
what happens is people make their own decisions and act independently which is only their own individual responsibility not anyone else's.
Mumbleberry ago
He could have stopped it with a mea culpa and un-bannings. But decided to dig his hole deeper instead.
Inaminit ago
I have to back up @Mumbleberry on this. I downvoated because I was banned and deleted for nothing more than chiming in about free speech.
CameraCode ago
Maybe you guys could have explained what he was doing wrong instead of just mass downvoating him and sending him petty insults. I get it, you want to crush any censorship, but the guy mostly believes what "we" do and he did say he hasn't been a mod before. It's not like he was trying to subvert voat and make an upvoating farm or anything. I think if we had a rational discussion with him and explained why deleting posts is overall more harmful even if those posts have nothing to do with his subverse, this whole situation could have been avoided and we could have had a cool place for people who like Minecraft. I don't even play it.
Mumbleberry ago
Besides, he should have known; https://voat.co/v/MillionDollarCraft/3128102
CameraCode ago
That seems more like a threat than a rational explaination. You could have said something like "you're better off not deleting stuff because upholding the principle of non-censorship is more important than having off-topic posts." Yeah, you didn't have to, but a little calm and kindness goes a long way.
Rainy-Day-Dream ago
Mumbleberry ago
I tried that before making the PV post.
Inaminit ago
Ah, I see you've been figured out.