We've got a couple of posters who comment but only submit their own channel and have less than 25 views. It seems like its out of our hands somewhat from now on though with report spammers.
What criteria are you using to class a user or video as monetized? Speaking more out of curiosity than anything else. We have some users on v/sports who get 5-7 views in their videos and comment but only submit from their own channels.
We read the rules a year ago and tried to apply them as evenly as we could.
We then made all of our mod talk public so people could see what we were doing with the rules and have input.
Then we made regular stickys asking users how they feel about the rules and how we operate.
You're going to have to work hard to spin that as us being authoritarian, or making decisions without community oversight.
I told you, I'm not going in circles with you any more. This is not productive.
The policy is on the sidebar, there have been many conversations about rules since that went up. We have been operating the same the whole time.
I don't want to argue with you. We're not going to agree.
But that does not matter. Neither you, nor me will be making the call.
Knowingly, repeatedly, maliciously, making reports that he knows do not fit falls under the spam definition.
I know you don't agree. We've been through that, no need for any more circles.
I am explaining our current stance. What we will proceed with will be determined soon, by the community.
And he was told many times it was not. It was explained to him. He understood, and intentionally, and maliciously spammed the report button in protest.
He is against community ownership of the sub and demands we use stricter rules as decided by him, not the users.
You sure you're on the right side here? That does not sound like something PV would support.
As a mod of a default sub, it's your responsibility to stay unbiased and avoid using your power to advantage spammers over other spammers. All spam should be treated as spam. There's no reason why you should consult your "community" when there are clear official rules about spam.
By endorsing spammers, you are insulting @Atko@Puttitout and all the voaters who are working their ass off to keep voat spam-free.
These are good discussion points you're bringing up, and I will get into it, and be open to all questions, but not until tomorrow.
We are trying to stay out of it for today, I assume you saw the comment, so I hope you understand.
I will say this though, doubt or questioning from most is fair and reasonable. But not from those three mods.
They knew that this could be solved in a civil manner. They know that I will never act against community will, and I asked all of them repeatedly to make a neutral post and get conversation started.
What they did was intentional. They wanted, and forced the drama.
I can understand how/why others could not be certain of that. But they have no excuse.
Now, I'm gonna go back to observing, but I will answer or discuss anything you want tomorrow.
@THC is a passionate guy. It is part of what makes him a good mod.
He cares deeply for free speech, and community rule.
He feels under attack. I also felt that way when I saw your comment. I'll take you at your word that it was not intended as an insult, but try seeing it from his view and you may see how it looked that way.
I've asked him to let it go, but he doesn't wear a leash, so we'll see.
Try to empathise. We have put a lot of time and effort into trying to be a model sub. We do not deserve the treatment we are receiving from many, so he may be a bit quick to become defensive.
We were the first default to declare community ownership. We have documented publicly everything we do.
And now we find ourselves under an unjust attack.
I don't say that to justify it, but it should be understandable.
Kev - Am I really seeing that a mod of a default subverse is insisting that you change your post before he will answer questions about his actions? Hunh.
I don't see the edit I asked for.
I will ask again:
Will you edit that videos post and add to the bottom : "the mods have decided to leave this post up for the day to gather more opinions and allow others to see it. Friday morning it will be replaced with a new post to summarise and propose a solution.
After you have done that, I'll answer your question.
I believe it is time for us to take a step back, and let the community discuss on its own for a bit.
We should observe, but not get involved, today.
It allows users to talk without any perceived influence or pressure from us, and may also take some of the heat out of it since we are the primary targets for that.
I will write and put up a summary tomorrow, and hopefully we can have a more calm and informed conversation at that point.
I would like to have this wrapped up with an approved solution by the end of the weekend. I don't care if Kevdude feels everything must be done instantly. Mistakes happen when we rush, and it will take some time to read the users clearly since there is so much misinformation muddying the waters at the moment.
So for today, look, listen, but don't interfere at all.
Really.
I can not express how disappointed I am with all of this. I thought we'd moved past it.
I've invested a lot of effort in it, and I honestly have no idea how we could possibly do our tasks in a more community friendly way.
I don't see how it is not clear to everyone that the PV sub is being played as a useful idiot, against mods who live up to the ideas it espouses.
Right, but the reason he is doing that is because he doesn't want to wait for the community discussion. I'm just so confused why this has become our fault. Even now the only thing he is arguing about is our definition of spam. Thats why we are unable to stop talking about it in the same breath as his ban for spamming us. His spamming us, was his protest about our definition of spam. Our definition of spam is directly from the community. We had a sticky recently with no activity. So we will have a sticky in a month. It will be discussed then. That is the only thing that will satisfy him. But you want us to let him have his hissy fit, because it only affects us. But I dont understand that. If he would just discuss it with the community, there is no reason for him to spam us. There is no reason for him to try and disrupt the modding team. Its not personal. We simply want to be able to use the mod mail. Its not useful if we just have to ignore pages of reports. I'm not going to sort through 'new' and then sort though mod mail. I want to check mod mail for something I might have missed. Take care of that. Then sort through new.
We are not trying to censor him. Thats the thing. We were trying so hard to work with him so we could get the discussion with the community. But somehow this has some urgent emergency status for him. He doesn't like the community definition of spam. Totally fine. We will definitely be discussing it in the upcoming sticky. Thats it. Thats all he has to do. Don't spam us. We are listening to AOU's concerns. We are not ignoring them. We have told him how to bring this to the attention of the community.
The only thing that will satify AOU at this point, is for us to delete the posts he considers spam. We can't do that. You know we cant do that kevdude. Its not our rules.
Now, I've noticed that PV finds it really annoying that we keep talking about the community guidelines and community definition of spam. But just look at all of AOU's complaints against us right now. It's directly tied to that. It is his only concern. I understand that PV does not like the 1 month temp ban. But our temp ban has always been 1 month. Keeping it consistent is what removes the bias. I want everything to be consistent. Would be awesome if everything could be black and white. So when someone spams the sub, and they are a legit sub user, we warn them. We try to work with them. If they continue, they are told that they will get a 1 month ban if it keeps happening. If they do it more, then they get that 1 month ban. We have had to do that for some spammers before. Now PV finds the fact that his spam is not visable to v/videos to mean that he gets immunity. But consistency. We treat spammers as consistently as we can. So we tried to work with him. Think between the 3 of us, we put more time into explaining it to AOU then anyone else before him. We then told him straight up that continuing to spam would lead to the 1 month ban. As per every other time we have handled a spammer. He continued. I just don't see what else we could have done to avoid it. You might not see the spam, but its still spam. Its spam with the purpose of disrupting our modding.
If he said right now, he wasnt going to abuse the button. He would say his piece when we have the sticky. No problem. No need for the ban. We would remove it right now. No problem at all. But thats not what he wants to do. He wants the rules changed. He wants them changed now.
Currently they have said that they need more genuine users to request that even a sticky about the banning be put up. Two more users have asked for that sticky since I last logged in. Would you also agrree that a sticky about this specific issue of the banning for repeated report spamming, apart and seperate from the issue of whether or not certain submitters are spammers which will be addressed in a a month? That would make 3.
Or we could treat him like an adult. Give him some personal responsibility. He could talk about this with the community. He doesn't need to have a fit and try to disrupt us to get his own way.
You know how in Reddit, you got a few SJW's screaming racisim and "I'm so offended, so you change everything for me". Then rules were changed for this very loud but small group? This is along the same lines. Instead of supporting his tantrum and demands for attention. How about we tell him to discuss it like everyone else. How about we support his ability to act like an adult.
This did not come from nothing. We recognized that he was a legit user of the sub. So thats why we put so much time and effort into discussing this with him. First explaining how spam was defined by the community for this particular sub. The reason v/videos came up with a different detention then the rest of the site was to protect our Original Content posters.
If you notice in all of AOU's posts in PV, he simply goes on and on about how we are protecting spammers. He does not talk about his ban. He kept misusing the spam report button, so he could get banned. So that he could go to PV and show you something you could all get upset about.
I'm going to link you some of my other responses to this situation, simply because they are spread out all over the place. I tend to create long responses, and would prefer to not have to rehash them. Since I'll probably be writing a novel to do so.
I guess thats the thing that bothers me. I signed up to be a mod to try and help protect Voat from the same fate as reddit. But then I see AOU gain traction by screaming the loudest. We never dismissed his complaint. We told him all the ways he could talk to the community about it. We also asked him to please bring it up in the next sticky. We tried so hard to help him use the methods that would actually see results. Because we need the community to tell us what to do. Not just him.
There have been a couple of other users ask for the question to be put to the community if this particular ban is reasonable or not , since I last looked. How many users of the site are enough before you ask the community if what you are doing in this case is the right thing? Some have been dismissed by @InnocentBystander already but I'm asking that you and THC take a look at it. I think at this point its reasonable to ask your community. Most of those users are questioning this specific ban and are happy to let the other situation be addressed in a month time from what I can see. Are you willing to open a dialogue with your community now?
I have noticed a couple of genuine users express an interest now.
That was lacking before. It is still a smaller number than what we would usually put a sticky up for, however it may reassure people that we're not full of shit, and could stymie aou's next attempts to troll.
I am greatly disappointed in the failure of all who have been aggressively hounding us without ever taking the advice of making a post and asking the community themselves.
That will not be forgotten Disappointed, you chose to push the drama route when a simple post in /v/whatever would probably have been enough.
Sure lets do it. Lets make the sticky now. We can hold a new sticky in the sub every single time someone starts screaming about how they don't like the way things are. So after we have this sticky. Whatever the decision is; when someone else starts flipping out about the changes or lack thereof, lets have another sticky. Right? Lets just keep doing that. Stickies all the time till no one looks at them anymore and we lose our connection with the sub.
Sure. Lets do that. Apparently thats how some people want it to function. But how about we bring that up in the sticky too.
How many stickies, are too many stickies. And how often do you want us to make a sticky when someone starts screaming bloody murder?
Just make it clear this sticky is an extraordinary one to deal with concerns from a number users about this particular ban and you will have another scheduled sticky as per usual(I think you said next month) where people can discuss relevant concerns about who is or isnt a spammer. Thats my two cents but I'll leave it to you guys. Thank you all.
I tend to think that putting up a post in v/whatever would be escalating the drama more than waiting to see if others users weighed in on the situation of their own accord. Thats why I'm asking you here in your area because you've said PV might not be the best place to do it. It wouldn't have been hard for me to make a thread in v/whatever and get some people to also ask for a thread. I believe I've handled this without escalating as much as possible and by giving you mods every opportunity to act yourselves and with time to give it some thought as well. Thats been my motivation here anyway. @kevdude I notice you are also engaging in discussion on this. Would this be a solution you'd be happy with, at least in the short term? @Atko@PuttItOut its your sub, so courtesy ping.
Edit: I also wanted to see if the user would agree to stop the reports which he didn't.
Just a question while I'm here. What would you mods do with the above linked featured video if it was posted to your sub under the current rules. This guy has a sub here on Voat so he's even following the guidelines for spam in the FAQ but my question is what would you do if he started posting these to your sub.
Well his reviews are "reviews for cash" if you look at more than that one video andor his sub but I purposely only showed you one. For what it's worth we have a similar policy at v/sports, although that one would be deleted most likely. Someone mentioned earlier to you I think how you would react to a janitor coming in to clean spam as advised by the admins. What would your reaction be if they were to delete maybe all of evrocot's videos under their direction?
The community discussed evercott specifically and said voats should decided.
If someone showed up, said to hell with community wishes, and did what they wanted instead, that would not be cool.
Well thats just hypothetical but something that could happen. Personally I wouldn't begrudge them since they have it in their FAQ and own the site. Anyway time for me to log off.
Basically, because of the situation. I will leave the unban date in my calendar. So if we do lift the temp ban, I still have that date. So in the (likely) event that he spams the reports again, he can go back into his 1 month ban, with the original unban date. Then we can still have a sticky in a month, and he would still be able to participate in that sticky.
Well ya. The whole point of this is that his definition of spam is contrary to the communities. We have spelled that out for him on many occasions. He would have no excuse to use the report spam button wrong. Thats why I assume he will just get banned again. He seems dedicated to reporting things that don't count as spam.
Your agreement is all we asked of him in the first place. Which is why I think we have no real hope of it becoming reality.
If AOU continues to attempt to start drama with misinformation, I think we should take a 'do not engage' policy.
It has been explained many times to him, he knows what to do if he actually wanted changes. He's just trying to rock the boat for us, so lets not play any more.
Reply to users that get sucked into it with the standard "Rules are decided by the community, consult them if you'd like to see change". Then just leave it at that.
If it is a genuine user with concerns, go ahead and discuss. But if it is someone just trying to stir the pot, or making unfounded accusations, only the canned-answer, then move on.
There is no point trying to defend ourselves against people with anti-community views, or those who didn't take the time to look into, or ask about, why things are the way they are.
So far only 4 people have raised any concern. 2 are users with personal grudges. 2 were PV mods that didn't do their homework before grabbing the pitchfork.
None are regular /v/videos users.
Until regular users have a problem, there is none.
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval".
The 2 PV mods did seem to make a hasty decision. But thats why I'm trying to take the time to explain it in PV. I like what PV does. I like that there is a mod watchdog. Just a little disappointing to see how quick they were to declare it unjust.
I feel I've said my piece though. My responses are for clarification or to answer questions.
But we can certainly have "Rules are decided by the community, consult them if you'd like to see change" as the default response. Then engage in discussion if there are further questions. I think it helps make it clear that we are not just coming up with rules on the spot or targeting individuals specifically.
On that note, despite how the PV situation turns out. We should just throw up another sticky after AOU 1 month ban. That will be about 3 months since the last. So it wouldn't hurt to ask how things are in the sub again.
The 2 PV mods did seem to make a hasty decision. But thats why I'm trying to take the time to explain it in PV. I like what PV does. I like that there is a mod watchdog. Just a little disappointing to see how quick they were to declare it unjust.
I agree. We have given them responses, I just mean going forward from now. They were hasty and got an explanation. Cyna seems to get it now, hopefull Disappointed does as well. But if not, no point going in circles with them.
Agreed that another sticky in a month would be a good idea.
I love how you are blatantly ignoring the fact that all the accounts I reported are obvious youtube and dailymotion channel spammers. All they do is post links of stolen videos from others to their channels to get traffic, and thus revenues. They don't even participate in the community.
You are just a bunch of hypocrites, and certainly get paid to let spam spread in /v/videos. ;D
Admins will get notified soon about your muddy behaviour.
I'm pretty sure I brought this up in my response to you before. Evrocot was specifically discussed with the community. The people you feel like your protecting, told us to leave the posts alone. They wanted the voats to decide. So your actually going against the communities wishes. Your going to find yourself alone in your crusade. Simply due to the fact that you have not been involved in the community in any meaningful way. You did not partake in the community discussions that discussed the very issues you are talking about here. If you truly cared, you would discuss this with the community. As they are the ones that have evolved and shaped this subverse. Something we are proud to say.
So when you get upset that we are not listening to you and think that somehow makes us corrupt. Its actually the opposite. We are protecting the communities wishes. We are protecting the idea of Voat. We are trying to ensure that the minority does not get to scream over the silent majority.
So I'm afraid you will continue to huff and puff to no avail. This mod team is proud to protect its community. As we only enforce the guidelines and rules that have been created by that community.
I noticed Violentlight used an old post for the last mod conversation. I was confused at why at first, then I noticed that the discuss button was not available, only the link one. So I fixed/switched that.
I wasn't around yesterday, but caught up on the Treddit issue. The guy is just trying hard to be a martyr and frame us as bad guys. He failed though, and is a non-issue. Good job handling it politely but firmly.
Did anyone respond to AOUs spam reports? I have given him the spam definition we use in past, and asked him to not make false reports. Doesn't look like he listened.
You've had this explained to you multiple times already. But I will do it once more.
This is the definition we use for spam:
Spam being defined as irrelevant posts, chronic reposting, or advertising is not allowed in any capacity.
You know that, but keep making false reports anyway.
We enforce rules that are approved by the community. If you don't like the rules, and want to see them changed, do not harass and play games with us. That will not gain you anything. Instead, convince the community. You can make a post in /v/videosModTalk, or in /v/whatever, or anywhere else appropriate and try a discussion.
If others felt the same, we would listen. But we have spoken with the community about exactly this multiple times in past. We also just had a feedback sticky post.
You do not speak for Voat.
We listen to the community, not a solitary user that thinks playing games is a reasonable way to get what they want.
Threatening the admins? Bluff called. Do it.
They won't care any more than we do. As long as the community is happy, we are content. I am certainly not going to start deleting things you feel should go, even though they don't break a rule.
I'm afraid to tell you that your reports don't show up there anymore. Due to the temporary time out you received. Hopefully you will be able to calm down in the month period so you can contribute to the community again.
Disappointed ago
We've got a couple of posters who comment but only submit their own channel and have less than 25 views. It seems like its out of our hands somewhat from now on though with report spammers.
Disappointed ago
What criteria are you using to class a user or video as monetized? Speaking more out of curiosity than anything else. We have some users on v/sports who get 5-7 views in their videos and comment but only submit from their own channels.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
You may find this post interesting.
AOU ago
Don't hold your breath.
InnocentBystander ago
Did you read the comment you replied to?
The answer you're looking for is there.
Seriosly done riding the merry-go-round with you now.
This is not constrictive
I'm gonna wait and see how the users decide to proceed.
InnocentBystander ago
We read the rules a year ago and tried to apply them as evenly as we could.
We then made all of our mod talk public so people could see what we were doing with the rules and have input.
Then we made regular stickys asking users how they feel about the rules and how we operate.
You're going to have to work hard to spin that as us being authoritarian, or making decisions without community oversight.
InnocentBystander ago
I told you, I'm not going in circles with you any more. This is not productive.
The policy is on the sidebar, there have been many conversations about rules since that went up. We have been operating the same the whole time.
I don't want to argue with you. We're not going to agree.
But that does not matter. Neither you, nor me will be making the call.
InnocentBystander ago
We've had the policy in effect for over a year.
It has been used before, and threatened often.
There was nothing new to discuss, nobody has ever complained.
AOU ago
How can someone can complain when they get banned for following the basic rules of voat?
Common sense is so depressed now.
InnocentBystander ago
Ya. It's not like we're putting up a sticky to consult them or anything.
InnocentBystander ago
He can have any opinion he wants. We don't care.
Knowingly, repeatedly, maliciously, making reports that he knows do not fit falls under the spam definition.
I know you don't agree. We've been through that, no need for any more circles.
I am explaining our current stance. What we will proceed with will be determined soon, by the community.
InnocentBystander ago
And he was told many times it was not. It was explained to him. He understood, and intentionally, and maliciously spammed the report button in protest.
AOU:
He is against community ownership of the sub and demands we use stricter rules as decided by him, not the users.
You sure you're on the right side here? That does not sound like something PV would support.
AOU ago
lol, you're such a tool. :D
The voat rules about spam have been decided by the admins.
You guys are so hilarious.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
Have a look at the appeals post I just submitted in here. I can edit it as necessary.
Violentlight ago
Ya, looks good to me. I also like that it gives us something to point to when we need it.
@THC
InnocentBystander ago
If you don't understand what the issue is, then maybe you prematurely acted without exhausting discussion first.
Maybe?
But you do know that we did not ban him over that. You know that he was banned for spamming the report button.
You are being dishonest again.
AOU ago
lol
Yes, you are.
You should ban all spam or not ban at all.
You can't favour spammers over other spammers. That makes you a biased mod.
AOU ago
Now you're back with the insults. :D
Banning spammers and removing their spam posts has nothing to do with asking people to follow "your" will.
Your attempt at trolling the discussion is getting ridiculous.
AOU ago
If you can't answer this question, you should really reconsider your position as a mod of a default sub.
You have the responsibility to make sure the rules of voat are respected by voaters who agreed with them when they registered.
AOU ago
Evrocot account fits the exactly the spam described in the the voat rules of spam.
You made a mistake by asking voaters to give their consent to treat this spam account as a normal one.
Spam is spam.
If you can't or don't want to understand that, you should step down and let other mods do it.
AOU ago
By endorsing "official spammers", you certainly don't.
AOU ago
You serve /v/videos, which is a default sub.
You should follow the official voat rules of spam. If you do refuse, as you already do, you should not be a mod of a default sub.
AOU ago
You want a trophy?
As a mod of a default sub, it's your responsibility to stay unbiased and avoid using your power to advantage spammers over other spammers. All spam should be treated as spam. There's no reason why you should consult your "community" when there are clear official rules about spam.
By endorsing spammers, you are insulting @Atko @Puttitout and all the voaters who are working their ass off to keep voat spam-free.
AOU ago
You're such a despicable person. Now I start to see and understand why you're so offensive and insulting to voaters who don't think and act like you.
Remember that when you signed up, you agreed to follow the simple, but clear rules of voat.
Since you have been put in a level of power, you think they don't apply to you and spammers you support.
This is exactly where you are wrong. And that's exactly why you guys banned me.
Let me remind them to you once again:
From the User Agreement:
From the FAQ:
AOU ago
All the spammers you banned are already tagged in my AVE.
Since, a lot of the spammers I reported are still active in /v/videos. Thanks to who? [rolleyes]
AOU ago
Since when voaters are deciding what is spam and what is not over the official voat rules about spam?
You are bypassing the rules to help spammers.
There's no discussion here. If the "community" wants to change the spam rules of voat, they should have ping @Atko and @Puttitout and asked them.
By bypassing the official rules on a default sub you are breaking them and become accomplice of spammers.
AOU ago
Not really. You just started being more active on spammers when I called you out.
https://voat.co/v/videos/modlog/banned
AOU ago
That's how you end up with spammers like evrocot. ^ ^
AOU ago
I you weren't acting like a dick and being offensively insulting to many voaters, I would have probably shared that trick with you.
Adding that you are shamelessly endorsing spammers in a default sub and now want to change the rules to fit your bad behaviour.
You don't deserve sympathy from anyone working their ass off to keep voat spam-free.
Don't forget you're just a mod. Best thing you should do is step down from your high-virtual-horse and take a look at the reality of the situation.
InnocentBystander ago
All the more reason for them to demonstrate that they are able to resolve these things civilly when the mods cooperate.
It should have been an example of how to do it, and proof that they can be reasonable.
They failed the community, and themselves.
Gah.. I've meant to stop talking, but it is refreshing to discuss with someone who is being reasonable and not vitriolic.
InnocentBystander ago
These are good discussion points you're bringing up, and I will get into it, and be open to all questions, but not until tomorrow.
We are trying to stay out of it for today, I assume you saw the comment, so I hope you understand.
I will say this though, doubt or questioning from most is fair and reasonable. But not from those three mods.
They knew that this could be solved in a civil manner. They know that I will never act against community will, and I asked all of them repeatedly to make a neutral post and get conversation started.
What they did was intentional. They wanted, and forced the drama.
I can understand how/why others could not be certain of that. But they have no excuse.
Now, I'm gonna go back to observing, but I will answer or discuss anything you want tomorrow.
InnocentBystander ago
Appreciated.
Part of the idea of staying out of it today was to let tempers cool. He missed the memo until now.
InnocentBystander ago
Fair enough.
It is a good idea and I considered doing it myself so that aou can not take back his comments that out him as a malicious troll.
But emotions may be running high. And it could appear insulting to us, without context.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC is a passionate guy. It is part of what makes him a good mod.
He cares deeply for free speech, and community rule.
He feels under attack. I also felt that way when I saw your comment. I'll take you at your word that it was not intended as an insult, but try seeing it from his view and you may see how it looked that way.
I've asked him to let it go, but he doesn't wear a leash, so we'll see.
Try to empathise. We have put a lot of time and effort into trying to be a model sub. We do not deserve the treatment we are receiving from many, so he may be a bit quick to become defensive.
We were the first default to declare community ownership. We have documented publicly everything we do.
And now we find ourselves under an unjust attack.
I don't say that to justify it, but it should be understandable.
Cynabuns ago
He can always ask, sure, but it seems a bit hostage-y.
Cynabuns ago
Kev - Am I really seeing that a mod of a default subverse is insisting that you change your post before he will answer questions about his actions? Hunh.
InnocentBystander ago
He asked me for a favour. I had asked him for one. I agreed to exchange.
I am under no obligation to track down old posts for him. That is not a mod duty.
You are making it harder and harder to believe your intentions are good.
InnocentBystander ago
I don't see the edit I asked for.
I will ask again:
Will you edit that videos post and add to the bottom : "the mods have decided to leave this post up for the day to gather more opinions and allow others to see it. Friday morning it will be replaced with a new post to summarise and propose a solution.
After you have done that, I'll answer your question.
InnocentBystander ago
Make the edit I asked for if you want me to believe that your intentions are anything but a malicious attempt to start drama.
Violentlight ago
I think I figured it out. I can't see why there would be any protest to the reasoning. But things feel heated lately, so just giving you a heads up.
@THC
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
I believe it is time for us to take a step back, and let the community discuss on its own for a bit.
We should observe, but not get involved, today.
It allows users to talk without any perceived influence or pressure from us, and may also take some of the heat out of it since we are the primary targets for that.
I will write and put up a summary tomorrow, and hopefully we can have a more calm and informed conversation at that point.
I would like to have this wrapped up with an approved solution by the end of the weekend. I don't care if Kevdude feels everything must be done instantly. Mistakes happen when we rush, and it will take some time to read the users clearly since there is so much misinformation muddying the waters at the moment.
So for today, look, listen, but don't interfere at all.
InnocentBystander ago
Really.
I can not express how disappointed I am with all of this. I thought we'd moved past it.
I've invested a lot of effort in it, and I honestly have no idea how we could possibly do our tasks in a more community friendly way.
I don't see how it is not clear to everyone that the PV sub is being played as a useful idiot, against mods who live up to the ideas it espouses.
InnocentBystander ago
Works for me.
I'll write something up. It'll go up early in the morning.
Violentlight ago
Right, but the reason he is doing that is because he doesn't want to wait for the community discussion. I'm just so confused why this has become our fault. Even now the only thing he is arguing about is our definition of spam. Thats why we are unable to stop talking about it in the same breath as his ban for spamming us. His spamming us, was his protest about our definition of spam. Our definition of spam is directly from the community. We had a sticky recently with no activity. So we will have a sticky in a month. It will be discussed then. That is the only thing that will satisfy him. But you want us to let him have his hissy fit, because it only affects us. But I dont understand that. If he would just discuss it with the community, there is no reason for him to spam us. There is no reason for him to try and disrupt the modding team. Its not personal. We simply want to be able to use the mod mail. Its not useful if we just have to ignore pages of reports. I'm not going to sort through 'new' and then sort though mod mail. I want to check mod mail for something I might have missed. Take care of that. Then sort through new.
We are not trying to censor him. Thats the thing. We were trying so hard to work with him so we could get the discussion with the community. But somehow this has some urgent emergency status for him. He doesn't like the community definition of spam. Totally fine. We will definitely be discussing it in the upcoming sticky. Thats it. Thats all he has to do. Don't spam us. We are listening to AOU's concerns. We are not ignoring them. We have told him how to bring this to the attention of the community.
The only thing that will satify AOU at this point, is for us to delete the posts he considers spam. We can't do that. You know we cant do that kevdude. Its not our rules.
Now, I've noticed that PV finds it really annoying that we keep talking about the community guidelines and community definition of spam. But just look at all of AOU's complaints against us right now. It's directly tied to that. It is his only concern. I understand that PV does not like the 1 month temp ban. But our temp ban has always been 1 month. Keeping it consistent is what removes the bias. I want everything to be consistent. Would be awesome if everything could be black and white. So when someone spams the sub, and they are a legit sub user, we warn them. We try to work with them. If they continue, they are told that they will get a 1 month ban if it keeps happening. If they do it more, then they get that 1 month ban. We have had to do that for some spammers before. Now PV finds the fact that his spam is not visable to v/videos to mean that he gets immunity. But consistency. We treat spammers as consistently as we can. So we tried to work with him. Think between the 3 of us, we put more time into explaining it to AOU then anyone else before him. We then told him straight up that continuing to spam would lead to the 1 month ban. As per every other time we have handled a spammer. He continued. I just don't see what else we could have done to avoid it. You might not see the spam, but its still spam. Its spam with the purpose of disrupting our modding.
If he said right now, he wasnt going to abuse the button. He would say his piece when we have the sticky. No problem. No need for the ban. We would remove it right now. No problem at all. But thats not what he wants to do. He wants the rules changed. He wants them changed now.
@THC @InnocentBystander
Disappointed ago
Currently they have said that they need more genuine users to request that even a sticky about the banning be put up. Two more users have asked for that sticky since I last logged in. Would you also agrree that a sticky about this specific issue of the banning for repeated report spamming, apart and seperate from the issue of whether or not certain submitters are spammers which will be addressed in a a month? That would make 3.
Violentlight ago
Or we could treat him like an adult. Give him some personal responsibility. He could talk about this with the community. He doesn't need to have a fit and try to disrupt us to get his own way.
You know how in Reddit, you got a few SJW's screaming racisim and "I'm so offended, so you change everything for me". Then rules were changed for this very loud but small group? This is along the same lines. Instead of supporting his tantrum and demands for attention. How about we tell him to discuss it like everyone else. How about we support his ability to act like an adult.
This did not come from nothing. We recognized that he was a legit user of the sub. So thats why we put so much time and effort into discussing this with him. First explaining how spam was defined by the community for this particular sub. The reason v/videos came up with a different detention then the rest of the site was to protect our Original Content posters.
If you notice in all of AOU's posts in PV, he simply goes on and on about how we are protecting spammers. He does not talk about his ban. He kept misusing the spam report button, so he could get banned. So that he could go to PV and show you something you could all get upset about.
I'm going to link you some of my other responses to this situation, simply because they are spread out all over the place. I tend to create long responses, and would prefer to not have to rehash them. Since I'll probably be writing a novel to do so.
First Second Third
I guess thats the thing that bothers me. I signed up to be a mod to try and help protect Voat from the same fate as reddit. But then I see AOU gain traction by screaming the loudest. We never dismissed his complaint. We told him all the ways he could talk to the community about it. We also asked him to please bring it up in the next sticky. We tried so hard to help him use the methods that would actually see results. Because we need the community to tell us what to do. Not just him.
@THC @InnocentBystander
Disappointed ago
There have been a couple of other users ask for the question to be put to the community if this particular ban is reasonable or not , since I last looked. How many users of the site are enough before you ask the community if what you are doing in this case is the right thing? Some have been dismissed by @InnocentBystander already but I'm asking that you and THC take a look at it. I think at this point its reasonable to ask your community. Most of those users are questioning this specific ban and are happy to let the other situation be addressed in a month time from what I can see. Are you willing to open a dialogue with your community now?
InnocentBystander ago
I have noticed a couple of genuine users express an interest now.
That was lacking before. It is still a smaller number than what we would usually put a sticky up for, however it may reassure people that we're not full of shit, and could stymie aou's next attempts to troll.
I am greatly disappointed in the failure of all who have been aggressively hounding us without ever taking the advice of making a post and asking the community themselves.
That will not be forgotten Disappointed, you chose to push the drama route when a simple post in /v/whatever would probably have been enough.
What do you think @THC @Violentlight? Put up a sticky?
Violentlight ago
Sure lets do it. Lets make the sticky now. We can hold a new sticky in the sub every single time someone starts screaming about how they don't like the way things are. So after we have this sticky. Whatever the decision is; when someone else starts flipping out about the changes or lack thereof, lets have another sticky. Right? Lets just keep doing that. Stickies all the time till no one looks at them anymore and we lose our connection with the sub.
Sure. Lets do that. Apparently thats how some people want it to function. But how about we bring that up in the sticky too.
How many stickies, are too many stickies. And how often do you want us to make a sticky when someone starts screaming bloody murder?
@THC
Disappointed ago
Just make it clear this sticky is an extraordinary one to deal with concerns from a number users about this particular ban and you will have another scheduled sticky as per usual(I think you said next month) where people can discuss relevant concerns about who is or isnt a spammer. Thats my two cents but I'll leave it to you guys. Thank you all.
Edit: Well nvm @Innocentbystander said basically the same thing.
InnocentBystander ago
I was thinking just a sticky to ask about the ban, the rest can wait.
We will not address Aou's concerns, or anything about him at all.
Just iron out our ban policy. See if the community agrees with our current interpretation, or if it need to be modified.
Aou won't even be mentioned.
I agree that caving to someone who is just starting drama to force their views, would be a mistake.
Disappointed ago
I tend to think that putting up a post in v/whatever would be escalating the drama more than waiting to see if others users weighed in on the situation of their own accord. Thats why I'm asking you here in your area because you've said PV might not be the best place to do it. It wouldn't have been hard for me to make a thread in v/whatever and get some people to also ask for a thread. I believe I've handled this without escalating as much as possible and by giving you mods every opportunity to act yourselves and with time to give it some thought as well. Thats been my motivation here anyway. @kevdude I notice you are also engaging in discussion on this. Would this be a solution you'd be happy with, at least in the short term? @Atko @PuttItOut its your sub, so courtesy ping.
Edit: I also wanted to see if the user would agree to stop the reports which he didn't.
Disappointed ago
Meant to ping @THC there
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
I should have pinged you guys to this post
I'm bad with pings, sorry.
I thought one post in PV without lies in the title might be a good idea since it looks like AOU is going to keep going.
Disappointed ago
https://www.youtube.com/allbestlist
Just a question while I'm here. What would you mods do with the above linked featured video if it was posted to your sub under the current rules. This guy has a sub here on Voat so he's even following the guidelines for spam in the FAQ but my question is what would you do if he started posting these to your sub.
InnocentBystander ago
I'm on my phone, so I didn't look much into the account, but assuming it is reviews, and not advertising, it would stay under the current rule.
That is not because we decided it. It is because that's how the community told us to.
AOU ago
Yet another "community" card.
When you sign up, you agree with voat rules.
What you mods here are doing is banning people who enforce them and tell others they don't have to follow them.
And worst, you even want to supersede these rules with yours on the sidebar, in a default sub.
No wonder why your sub is filled with spammers and their spambots.
@Atko @Puttitout Are you ok with mods superseding voat rules about spam?
From the User Agreement:
From the FAQ:
InnocentBystander ago
That has been the case for over a year. Atko knows, and yet we're still his "favourite" sub.
Suck on that troll.
AOU ago
Suck on what?
Show me the evidence @Atko is ok with you changing voat's default rules about spam.
Disappointed ago
Well his reviews are "reviews for cash" if you look at more than that one video andor his sub but I purposely only showed you one. For what it's worth we have a similar policy at v/sports, although that one would be deleted most likely. Someone mentioned earlier to you I think how you would react to a janitor coming in to clean spam as advised by the admins. What would your reaction be if they were to delete maybe all of evrocot's videos under their direction?
InnocentBystander ago
I'd be upset.
The community discussed evercott specifically and said voats should decided.
If someone showed up, said to hell with community wishes, and did what they wanted instead, that would not be cool.
Disappointed ago
Well thats just hypothetical but something that could happen. Personally I wouldn't begrudge them since they have it in their FAQ and own the site. Anyway time for me to log off.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
I should have pinged you to this comment.
Violentlight ago
Basically, because of the situation. I will leave the unban date in my calendar. So if we do lift the temp ban, I still have that date. So in the (likely) event that he spams the reports again, he can go back into his 1 month ban, with the original unban date. Then we can still have a sticky in a month, and he would still be able to participate in that sticky.
@THC
InnocentBystander ago
That sounds reasonable to me.
If he agrees to the deal that I spoke about here.
@THC
Violentlight ago
Well ya. The whole point of this is that his definition of spam is contrary to the communities. We have spelled that out for him on many occasions. He would have no excuse to use the report spam button wrong. Thats why I assume he will just get banned again. He seems dedicated to reporting things that don't count as spam.
Your agreement is all we asked of him in the first place. Which is why I think we have no real hope of it becoming reality.
@THC
Violentlight ago
So whats our response to Disappointed's proposal. I don't want to speak for all of us. :D
@THC
InnocentBystander ago
I made a tentative offer, pending approval from you guys. But I don't think he will. If he does, he will have to behave, or just get banned again.
InnocentBystander ago
Damnit, forgot a ping again
@THC see above.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
If AOU continues to attempt to start drama with misinformation, I think we should take a 'do not engage' policy.
It has been explained many times to him, he knows what to do if he actually wanted changes. He's just trying to rock the boat for us, so lets not play any more.
Reply to users that get sucked into it with the standard "Rules are decided by the community, consult them if you'd like to see change". Then just leave it at that.
If it is a genuine user with concerns, go ahead and discuss. But if it is someone just trying to stir the pot, or making unfounded accusations, only the canned-answer, then move on.
There is no point trying to defend ourselves against people with anti-community views, or those who didn't take the time to look into, or ask about, why things are the way they are.
So far only 4 people have raised any concern. 2 are users with personal grudges. 2 were PV mods that didn't do their homework before grabbing the pitchfork.
None are regular /v/videos users.
Until regular users have a problem, there is none.
Disappointed ago
You have a funny idea of a pitchfork. You haven't seen a pitchfork yet from me on this.
AOU ago
Misinformation? lol
Check your /new and tell me 70% of the submissions are not spam.
Can't wait for @Atko and @Puttitout to step in and fix the mess you guys have created in default subs.
InnocentBystander ago
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
AOU ago
You guys never stop claiming the community decides, but in fact it's just a bunch of spammers who voice their opinion, and obviously they own you.
By turning a blind eye on obvious spam, you are turning voat into another reddigg.
You are just so disconnected with the reality, common sense is crying.
InnocentBystander ago
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval".
AOU ago
lol
Violentlight ago
The 2 PV mods did seem to make a hasty decision. But thats why I'm trying to take the time to explain it in PV. I like what PV does. I like that there is a mod watchdog. Just a little disappointing to see how quick they were to declare it unjust.
I feel I've said my piece though. My responses are for clarification or to answer questions.
But we can certainly have "Rules are decided by the community, consult them if you'd like to see change" as the default response. Then engage in discussion if there are further questions. I think it helps make it clear that we are not just coming up with rules on the spot or targeting individuals specifically.
On that note, despite how the PV situation turns out. We should just throw up another sticky after AOU 1 month ban. That will be about 3 months since the last. So it wouldn't hurt to ask how things are in the sub again.
@THC
InnocentBystander ago
@THC
I agree. We have given them responses, I just mean going forward from now. They were hasty and got an explanation. Cyna seems to get it now, hopefull Disappointed does as well. But if not, no point going in circles with them.
Agreed that another sticky in a month would be a good idea.
AOU ago
I love how you are blatantly ignoring the fact that all the accounts I reported are obvious youtube and dailymotion channel spammers. All they do is post links of stolen videos from others to their channels to get traffic, and thus revenues. They don't even participate in the community.
You are just a bunch of hypocrites, and certainly get paid to let spam spread in /v/videos. ;D
Admins will get notified soon about your muddy behaviour.
Violentlight ago
I'm pretty sure I brought this up in my response to you before. Evrocot was specifically discussed with the community. The people you feel like your protecting, told us to leave the posts alone. They wanted the voats to decide. So your actually going against the communities wishes. Your going to find yourself alone in your crusade. Simply due to the fact that you have not been involved in the community in any meaningful way. You did not partake in the community discussions that discussed the very issues you are talking about here. If you truly cared, you would discuss this with the community. As they are the ones that have evolved and shaped this subverse. Something we are proud to say.
So when you get upset that we are not listening to you and think that somehow makes us corrupt. Its actually the opposite. We are protecting the communities wishes. We are protecting the idea of Voat. We are trying to ensure that the minority does not get to scream over the silent majority.
So I'm afraid you will continue to huff and puff to no avail. This mod team is proud to protect its community. As we only enforce the guidelines and rules that have been created by that community.
@THC @InnocentBystander
AOU ago
Time will tell.
lol
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
I noticed Violentlight used an old post for the last mod conversation. I was confused at why at first, then I noticed that the discuss button was not available, only the link one. So I fixed/switched that.
I wasn't around yesterday, but caught up on the Treddit issue. The guy is just trying hard to be a martyr and frame us as bad guys. He failed though, and is a non-issue. Good job handling it politely but firmly.
Did anyone respond to AOUs spam reports? I have given him the spam definition we use in past, and asked him to not make false reports. Doesn't look like he listened.
AOU ago
If you guys keep protecting spammers and helping them to reach voat's front page, you will get reported to admins.
I'm not the only one noticing that you willingly ignore blatant and obvious youtube and dailymotion channel spam.
Is there a financial reason behind this behaviour? :)
InnocentBystander ago
You've had this explained to you multiple times already. But I will do it once more.
This is the definition we use for spam:
You know that, but keep making false reports anyway.
We enforce rules that are approved by the community. If you don't like the rules, and want to see them changed, do not harass and play games with us. That will not gain you anything. Instead, convince the community. You can make a post in /v/videosModTalk, or in /v/whatever, or anywhere else appropriate and try a discussion.
If others felt the same, we would listen. But we have spoken with the community about exactly this multiple times in past. We also just had a feedback sticky post.
You do not speak for Voat.
We listen to the community, not a solitary user that thinks playing games is a reasonable way to get what they want.
Threatening the admins? Bluff called. Do it.
They won't care any more than we do. As long as the community is happy, we are content. I am certainly not going to start deleting things you feel should go, even though they don't break a rule.
InnocentBystander ago
@THC @Violentlight
You may want to read this comment thread. I forgot to ping you in my reply.
Violentlight ago
AOU has a 1 month ban now. I've been warning him constantly. Let him know last time that it was the final warning.
AOU ago
You really think your ban is gonna stop me from reporting real spammers?
Check your spam report list.
Violentlight ago
I'm afraid to tell you that your reports don't show up there anymore. Due to the temporary time out you received. Hopefully you will be able to calm down in the month period so you can contribute to the community again.
AOU ago
I'm sorry to tell you that I have no interest to contribute to your open-to-spammers sub.
Enjoy your short-to-go power time.
Violentlight ago
Oh man... I have been so tired lately. Didn't even notice I was using an old post. Also forgot to tag @THC. My brains not working anymore.
@InnocentBystander