I don't have much time to comment, I'm at work and busy but regardless of whether they are spammers or not, a 1 month ban is ridiculous. I suggest @THC@InnocentBystander@Violentlight@Atko And @PuttItOut you all need to have a chat about this and see if heavy handed, punitive bans on defaults for genuine users is going to be the way forward.
Heavy-handed?
We gave many, many warnings. And enforce only community supported rules.
What he did was spamming.
I will say to you what I've said to him:
If you want to see the rules change, start a community dialogue. If the community wants changes made, it will happen.
But that is the only way it will happen.
We don't cater to whiners who feel the communitys wishes should be ignored because they know best.
A one month ban is not excessive. We perma-ban most spammers, so it is soft.
On top of that, he could easily get it removed if he agreed to stop.
He wont though because he is using that as an excuse to play you for a fool.
You are being used as a tool for his harassment.
I do think a 1 month ban for this offence is excessive and I think its been handed out in a situation where you cannot remain objective. I agree with others that it is a seperate issue to spamming the sub. The problem with you saying people are welcome to post a meta thread about the issue is that is useless unless it is stickied. Are you willing to sticky a thread asking the users about this specific situation? @Violentlight@THC please see my reply here.
Well thats the part thats confusing me. We have mentioned a few times that this issue was already discussed. We explained that to AOU many times. So your asking for a sticky to discuss something that we have already discussed. AOU is mad at a community decision on how to handle these types of posts.
But certainly, after his 1 month ban, we will be making another sticky. As with all the stickies, it will allow people to talk about any issues or topics they want to bring to our attention. But we will be sure to point out this one specifically as well.
But again, we are currently acting on the last sticky where this specific issue was discussed. When I say specific, I mean down to the user. Evrocot specifically was brought up in that discussion. We were told to let the Voats decide it.
This is all stuff we made many attempts to explain to AOU.
So we have no problem discussing it. But since we just had an empty sticky (no one responded with issues) 2 months ago, we will hold another one in 1 month. Then AOU can be active in this discussion. He can make his arguments as to what he wants spam to be defined as for v/videos.
Discussed by you 3 but not by the community, if I'm mistaken and you have discussed a scenario where someone is spamming the mod queue with users before in a sticky then I apologize but I think rather you are using a previous discussion where most users would see a "spammer" as someone spamming the actual sub. You are extrapolating that and expanding the spammer definition to cover this scenario yourselves. So your answer is you are unwilling to sticky anything that asks the users about this specific scenario until you deem this user has served "justice"? You and I both know an unstickied discussion will be buried. I am not asking whether evrocot is deemed spammer on your sub, I think I've made that more than clear.
Oh I see. Ya, so you want to talk about how to handle if someone is misusing the spam report button?
Here is how I see the misuse of the spam report button. This thread has gotten pretty large, so I can't remember who said it. But someone said that AOU is a monkey on crack, but that we should just ignore it.
I find the spam report button is a tool. One that is very, very helpful. It allows the community to get stuff to our attention quickly. I love it. I can't wait till they add notifications back to it. Because I just love the damn thing. But to say that we should just ignore people who misuse it, is taking personal responsibility away from the user. We didn't see him report 6 posts and then ban him. He reported a bunch of posts, we explained why they were not considered spam. He reported the same type of posts, we explained why its not spam. He started to just ramp up the reports as we continued to try and explain that the community does not want us to delete it. The same treatment happens with all the reports of spam we get when someone had their feelings hurt and wanted us to step in. We tell them that is not what we do. We tell them to not abuse the report spam button.
We explained it as much as we could until AOU made it clear he had no intention of using the button to actually help us. But to use the button to make a point. So then we gave him a final warning, letting him know that the next time would be a 1 month ban. We made it very clear. Next day another 6 reports of the same stuff that we cannot do anything about. So he got a 1 month ban.
I'm just confused why personal responsibility is being removed from AOU. We had told him many times to bring his concerns to the next community discussion. Because we cannot make changes to the rules without the community telling us to. So AOU could have collected his data. Worked on his argument, and then brought it to the community. We had recently had a sticky that had no response. The sticky asked v/videos to let us know any issues. Not even issues, just talk to us. About anything. But no one did.
I think @THC mentioned it earlier that the community wanted us to deal with spammers with permanent bans. We actually tweaked that a little with the 1 month temp ban to create some leniency.
I'm sorry, I really was mis-understanding you before. But I get that the issue your concerned with is that AOU got banned for the misuse of the spam report button. So I'm just wondering why AOU gets no accountability? Why are we treating him like a child that can scream to get his way. We didn't surprise him with this. We worked hard to help him understand that it was a community decision that we are simply enforcing. We told him straight up that continued misuse of the button would lead to a 1 month ban. He continued. So I'm a little confused how that becomes our fault? We are not springing this on him like a surprise. He knew exactly what he was doing. We provided his options to bring this issue to the community.
I totally get what your saying about the issue not getting viability without a sticky. But we are not going to create a sticky so soon after the (very empty) one we just had because one single user is freaking out. We certainly heard his complaints. It certainly was going to be brought up in the next sticky. But he just had to wait till the next sticky. I get that he thinks its spam and should removed. The community disagrees and we have to function off of the communities wishes.
But ultimately, I just don't understand why we are taking personal responsibility away from AOU.
I'm not trying to dodge your questions. I honestly just mis-heard(read... understood?) your point. So please let me know if I'm still missing your point entirely still.
No you got it right this time I am focused completely on the 1 month ban in THIS PARTICUlAR situation and if it should carry the same punishment you deal out to spammers of the sub who fit in to the traditional definition of a spammer on Voat or not. I'm not convinced yet either if a sticky on v/videos would be appropriate and I think this discussion might be enough. I did want to hear whether or not you would sticky one if made though. People are also focused on the election and its just been a few of us in here despite the high amount of posts. I would like to see more input from others on this and I doubt we'll get that given the timing and your post has provided a bit more background information as well. Let me think on it some more. @InnocentBystander@THC
I did want to hear whether or not you would sticky one if made though.
At this point no.
But if more users were concerned, we would.
We're not going to put up a sticky when 1-3 users are upset over something, we try to keep the number of stickys down. It is a video sub. Stickys also get less attention where there is always one up, people stop paying attention to it.
It is definitely something we will bring up in the next feedback post, but not something that merits a new sticky now.
If that changes, so will our stance.
@AOU are you willing to stop making reports about the users like evrocot at least until next month when the mods of v/videos make a sticky and people/you can bring up those those specific posts to the users of the sub? I'd assume that the mods wouldn't mind if you still reported the traditional spammers in that time if you were unbanned like they said you would be if you made a deal to stop the multiple reports until the users address it. @THC@InnocentBystander@Violentlight correct me if I've misinterpreted anything you've said regarding this. @AOU in this way you'll get your opportunity to address the situation in a way where you might get a resolution and more eyes on what you see as a problem highlighted. With the election going on and if the user and the mods can agree here then this might be the best resolution we get. How about it guys?
Slight modification to the wording:
If he agrees to not make reports on any posts that do not fit the subs definition of spam.
If he agrees to that, we would probably remove it. But I would have to discuss that with the other mods first.
I doubt he will though. This is the only thing he has to hold against us. He's drama whoring.
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Disappointed ago
I don't have much time to comment, I'm at work and busy but regardless of whether they are spammers or not, a 1 month ban is ridiculous. I suggest @THC @InnocentBystander @Violentlight @Atko And @PuttItOut you all need to have a chat about this and see if heavy handed, punitive bans on defaults for genuine users is going to be the way forward.
Disappointed is disappointed.
InnocentBystander ago
Heavy-handed?
We gave many, many warnings. And enforce only community supported rules.
What he did was spamming.
I will say to you what I've said to him:
If you want to see the rules change, start a community dialogue. If the community wants changes made, it will happen.
But that is the only way it will happen.
We don't cater to whiners who feel the communitys wishes should be ignored because they know best.
A one month ban is not excessive. We perma-ban most spammers, so it is soft.
On top of that, he could easily get it removed if he agreed to stop.
He wont though because he is using that as an excuse to play you for a fool.
You are being used as a tool for his harassment.
Disappointed ago
I do think a 1 month ban for this offence is excessive and I think its been handed out in a situation where you cannot remain objective. I agree with others that it is a seperate issue to spamming the sub. The problem with you saying people are welcome to post a meta thread about the issue is that is useless unless it is stickied. Are you willing to sticky a thread asking the users about this specific situation? @Violentlight @THC please see my reply here.
Violentlight ago
Well thats the part thats confusing me. We have mentioned a few times that this issue was already discussed. We explained that to AOU many times. So your asking for a sticky to discuss something that we have already discussed. AOU is mad at a community decision on how to handle these types of posts.
But certainly, after his 1 month ban, we will be making another sticky. As with all the stickies, it will allow people to talk about any issues or topics they want to bring to our attention. But we will be sure to point out this one specifically as well.
But again, we are currently acting on the last sticky where this specific issue was discussed. When I say specific, I mean down to the user. Evrocot specifically was brought up in that discussion. We were told to let the Voats decide it.
This is all stuff we made many attempts to explain to AOU.
So we have no problem discussing it. But since we just had an empty sticky (no one responded with issues) 2 months ago, we will hold another one in 1 month. Then AOU can be active in this discussion. He can make his arguments as to what he wants spam to be defined as for v/videos.
@InnocentBystander @THC
Disappointed ago
Discussed by you 3 but not by the community, if I'm mistaken and you have discussed a scenario where someone is spamming the mod queue with users before in a sticky then I apologize but I think rather you are using a previous discussion where most users would see a "spammer" as someone spamming the actual sub. You are extrapolating that and expanding the spammer definition to cover this scenario yourselves. So your answer is you are unwilling to sticky anything that asks the users about this specific scenario until you deem this user has served "justice"? You and I both know an unstickied discussion will be buried. I am not asking whether evrocot is deemed spammer on your sub, I think I've made that more than clear.
Violentlight ago
Oh I see. Ya, so you want to talk about how to handle if someone is misusing the spam report button?
Here is how I see the misuse of the spam report button. This thread has gotten pretty large, so I can't remember who said it. But someone said that AOU is a monkey on crack, but that we should just ignore it.
I find the spam report button is a tool. One that is very, very helpful. It allows the community to get stuff to our attention quickly. I love it. I can't wait till they add notifications back to it. Because I just love the damn thing. But to say that we should just ignore people who misuse it, is taking personal responsibility away from the user. We didn't see him report 6 posts and then ban him. He reported a bunch of posts, we explained why they were not considered spam. He reported the same type of posts, we explained why its not spam. He started to just ramp up the reports as we continued to try and explain that the community does not want us to delete it. The same treatment happens with all the reports of spam we get when someone had their feelings hurt and wanted us to step in. We tell them that is not what we do. We tell them to not abuse the report spam button.
We explained it as much as we could until AOU made it clear he had no intention of using the button to actually help us. But to use the button to make a point. So then we gave him a final warning, letting him know that the next time would be a 1 month ban. We made it very clear. Next day another 6 reports of the same stuff that we cannot do anything about. So he got a 1 month ban.
I'm just confused why personal responsibility is being removed from AOU. We had told him many times to bring his concerns to the next community discussion. Because we cannot make changes to the rules without the community telling us to. So AOU could have collected his data. Worked on his argument, and then brought it to the community. We had recently had a sticky that had no response. The sticky asked v/videos to let us know any issues. Not even issues, just talk to us. About anything. But no one did.
I think @THC mentioned it earlier that the community wanted us to deal with spammers with permanent bans. We actually tweaked that a little with the 1 month temp ban to create some leniency.
I'm sorry, I really was mis-understanding you before. But I get that the issue your concerned with is that AOU got banned for the misuse of the spam report button. So I'm just wondering why AOU gets no accountability? Why are we treating him like a child that can scream to get his way. We didn't surprise him with this. We worked hard to help him understand that it was a community decision that we are simply enforcing. We told him straight up that continued misuse of the button would lead to a 1 month ban. He continued. So I'm a little confused how that becomes our fault? We are not springing this on him like a surprise. He knew exactly what he was doing. We provided his options to bring this issue to the community.
I totally get what your saying about the issue not getting viability without a sticky. But we are not going to create a sticky so soon after the (very empty) one we just had because one single user is freaking out. We certainly heard his complaints. It certainly was going to be brought up in the next sticky. But he just had to wait till the next sticky. I get that he thinks its spam and should removed. The community disagrees and we have to function off of the communities wishes.
But ultimately, I just don't understand why we are taking personal responsibility away from AOU.
I'm not trying to dodge your questions. I honestly just mis-heard(read... understood?) your point. So please let me know if I'm still missing your point entirely still.
@InnocentBystander
Disappointed ago
No you got it right this time I am focused completely on the 1 month ban in THIS PARTICUlAR situation and if it should carry the same punishment you deal out to spammers of the sub who fit in to the traditional definition of a spammer on Voat or not. I'm not convinced yet either if a sticky on v/videos would be appropriate and I think this discussion might be enough. I did want to hear whether or not you would sticky one if made though. People are also focused on the election and its just been a few of us in here despite the high amount of posts. I would like to see more input from others on this and I doubt we'll get that given the timing and your post has provided a bit more background information as well. Let me think on it some more. @InnocentBystander @THC
InnocentBystander ago
At this point no.
But if more users were concerned, we would.
We're not going to put up a sticky when 1-3 users are upset over something, we try to keep the number of stickys down. It is a video sub. Stickys also get less attention where there is always one up, people stop paying attention to it.
It is definitely something we will bring up in the next feedback post, but not something that merits a new sticky now.
If that changes, so will our stance.
Disappointed ago
@AOU are you willing to stop making reports about the users like evrocot at least until next month when the mods of v/videos make a sticky and people/you can bring up those those specific posts to the users of the sub? I'd assume that the mods wouldn't mind if you still reported the traditional spammers in that time if you were unbanned like they said you would be if you made a deal to stop the multiple reports until the users address it. @THC @InnocentBystander @Violentlight correct me if I've misinterpreted anything you've said regarding this. @AOU in this way you'll get your opportunity to address the situation in a way where you might get a resolution and more eyes on what you see as a problem highlighted. With the election going on and if the user and the mods can agree here then this might be the best resolution we get. How about it guys?
InnocentBystander ago
Slight modification to the wording:
If he agrees to not make reports on any posts that do not fit the subs definition of spam.
If he agrees to that, we would probably remove it. But I would have to discuss that with the other mods first.
I doubt he will though. This is the only thing he has to hold against us. He's drama whoring.