Sounds like a dumb question doesn't it?
Yet at /v/videos we find our selves under attack from some PV users because we refused to throw out the community chosen rules and replace them with stricter rules chosen by one guy.
Have I taken crazy pills?
They have even threatened that Atko would get involved. Are they on drugs? Atko was the one that told us to not be power-mongers.
We're doing what he asked; what the community wants.
I have long supported PV. But if this community has decided to abandon it's anti-power mod stance, then I'll have to reconsider.
I will not be a power-mod. I will not force arbitrary rules on a community that doesn't want them.
There is no team of mods on this site that is more open, transparent, and approachable than we are. What more do you expect?
If anyone is not happy with the current ruleset, all they need to do is start a community dialogue, and we will do as the community wishes.
If someone thinks they can force us to change rules, without consent from the community, by harassing or threatening us, they are wrong.
If PV is going to start supporting trolls who want arbitrary anti-community rules chosen by them alone, then we no longer value the PV communitys opinion.
I suggest you all review the sidebar here.
@kevdude - You've been silent on this. Enjoying the popcorn and show? How about weighing in.
InnocentBystander ago
He got banned for repeatedly and maliciously breaking the rules.
Phrasing that as "disobey orders" is dishonest.
InnocentBystander ago
Dude, come on. Don't play that game. You know I will deal straight with you if you stay honest.
Lets not go that route.
InnocentBystander ago
smail is a part of the sub. spamming it does affect the sub, and users, since it takes one of the very useful tools out of service. Users can talk back all they want, that doesn't break a rule.
That's right. So why tell us to change the rules?
We've stated many times our willingness to do as the community wishes. And told ya how to do it.
InnocentBystander ago
No, he did not ping us.
He spammed the smail.
InnocentBystander ago
A small voice manipulating people in order to get their way over the community is 'a reddit thing'.
Standing firm and telling them to get bent, is how we do things around here.
It is a bannable offence, it is spam. We have a community-approved rule that covers it. If anyone want us to change the rules, we are willing. But threats will not do it.
We couldn't possibly make it any clearer than we have. Community discussion is the way forward. All other paths will be a deadlock.
We've had the same ban policy for over a year. Break a rule, we ask them not to, break it again, we ask again and may threaten a temp ban, break it again, get a temp-ban.
We usually give more than just two warning first. That applies to all the rules.
We're not saying 'no'. We're saying 'talk to the boss'. (the community)
The idea that some around here are quick to shit on us for following rules that have been in place for a year, while at the same time saying nothing to the troll who is manipulating your sub in an effort to force heavy handed moderation that is against community wishes, boggles my mind.
This sub is losing credibility.
Any one of the people involved could have just made a neutral post in /v/whatever (or elsewhere) instead of attacking us.
If users agree that its an issue, then a sticky goes up, and the community makes the call.
But we do not change rules because someone has a temper-tantrum and demands it. We also don't put up a sticky for a couple people.
There are simple ways to deal with this in a civil manner. But nobody seems to want to go that route.
Encouraging trolls who are actively trying to remove community rule does not seem very PV-like.
Don't misunderstand me though, so far you've been dealing with it civilly, and I have no problem with discussing this and being questioned over it. But if change is going to happen, it is not going to be decided by me, and will not be done without community consultation.
InnocentBystander ago
Spamming the smail with false reports.
Here is a summary
InnocentBystander ago
Well, he was spamming, and we sometimes do ban others. Eg doxxing.
InnocentBystander ago
Aou has been trolling and manipulating this sub. Looks like he read your sidebar and did exactly what the users were warned about.
Doesn't seem like a few of the users, and mods read the sidebar.
I'll let you dig and form your own opinion, but regardless of how you feel about the banning, it has been handled very poorly here.
InnocentBystander ago
No, just you.
InnocentBystander ago
When I sift through your comment for a point, there's nothing there.
Just an unsubstantiated smear attempt.
Almost as if you had an axe to grind.
InnocentBystander ago
That was what I had assumed, but thanks for the clarification.
InnocentBystander ago
Aou is the troll, you're the one with the axe.
The amount of bullshit in this comment verifys that.
Anyone who looks into it will be able to see that for themselves.
InnocentBystander ago
Noted.
Thanks for the honest question, and stating you desire in a civil, non-hostile way.
This is the type of feedback and discussion we desire.
InnocentBystander ago
Same reason we don't ignore them everywhere. It Jams up the queue, resulting in more stuff slipping past, and less time for us to deal with real reports.
This wasn't just one or two false reports. He was flooding us.
Cynabuns ago
This unwillingness to start a dialogue with the community was the exact same behavior we had seen for months from v/News. The mods, rather than initiating the discussion for input, just sat on their hands until a user made a post.
With Atko's recent proclamation, we see how that turned out.
InnocentBystander ago
Relevent info on the banning
Standard responce when a user thinks the community chosen rules are wrong :
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
If you can't get a conversation started among the users, then you've got nothing.
It doesn't have to be a huge post. It just need to indicate that you're not alone and the community is interested in looking into it.
You listed 5 users you said had a problem. Two are users with a personal axe to grind that is unrelated, two are PV mods that we talked with and came to an understanding with.
That leaves 1 user. We don't make a sticky for that.
Cynabuns ago
I certainly would NOT be one of the PV mods with whom there has been any agreement or understanding arranged.
I am still of the opinion that The Ban should have NEVER happened and I reiterate my request that it be removed.
InnocentBystander ago
Understanding is the word I used.
I know it is not agreement.
You do understand our position don't you?
And do you feel that a sticky to adress a ban that is not being disputed by the banned user, or more than a couple others is really required?
Cynabuns ago
I too used "Understanding".
I "see" your thinking but no, I do not "understand" why you are taking this position on a Default Sub. It's wrong no matter how you look at it, period.
The user obviously has an issue with this---he made a post in PV!
Disappointed ago
I don't have an agreement on anything with anybody. The last post I made was asking if you mods and the user could come to an agreement on this but it seems like no.
I still think you mods should ask the users yourselves if this is the right thing to be doing and if 1 month isn't too long which I think it is. Personally when I've been spammed with reports I've ignored them and we have been spammed with reports a fair bit here on this sub.
InnocentBystander ago
Last we ended with you we had explained that this would be part of the next feedback post, his ban would be lifted if he agreed to stop spamming, and that we would make a sticky sooner if the community wanted one.
I had assumed that counts as an understanding, since you seemed to agree it was reasonable.
Disappointed ago
Well fair enough but I'd personally prefer you make a post asking about this specific banning now but like I said I want to see what others think first. I can see how you would think that is a deal though. You could always unban him and see what happens.
InnocentBystander ago
Your opinion has been heard, and it is being taken into consideration.
But that still only makes two, or three if we count @cynabuns.
If you think that it would be something others also want, make a neutral post and we will see.
We will follow it, and make a sticky if anything comes of it.
Slandering attack posts like what aou is doing does not help, and only makes it harder to determine what the community thinks.
Disappointed ago
I'd love it if a couple of you mods would take that 2-3 to 4-5 by virtue of you wanting to know yourselves. Anyway like I said I'll see what happens now that people might have had their fill of elections.
Cynabuns ago
You are counting the number, me and @Disappointed and whomever else, to rationalize whether to unban this guy or not??? I love you man, but you are reeeeeally not thinking clearly on this one.
TL;DR: You Banned A User For Pissing You Guys Off Behind The Scenes On A Default Subverse Because He Pressed The Report-Spam Button Too Much!!! @PuttitOut @Atko
InnocentBystander ago
No. That is not to decide on the ban.
It is to decide if there is community interest in having a sticky.
And your tldr is dishonest, we've spoken about that, so you know it's not true.
Cynabuns ago
IB, that is exactly the heart of the issue: You banned a user for hitting the report-spam button on a Default Sub, period. You three mods came to the agreement that it warranted a ban and executed it, and the length of the ban isn't even relevant frankly. The decision was just plain wrong. There doesn't need to be a post, there doesn't need to be more gyrations in here or anywhere else on the matter.
We all make mistakes and that is all this was---a bad decision executed out of frustration with a user that has been bugging the shit outta you guys. Just reverse the ban and this is done.
InnocentBystander ago
No.
We temp banned a malicious spammer that was abusing the sub in an effort to force his will against the community.
If you don't like the posted rules we use, talk to the community.
Trying to pressure us to do what you want goes against everything PV stands for. You are wrong, and should be ashamed.
Asking us to make a sticky to see what the community thinks would have been fair. Trying to push your own decision without community consultation is not.
I do not take orders from you. And you're being very arrogant if you think you alone speaks for all of Voat.
Cynabuns ago
He forced nothing on the community: the community does not have access to the Report-Spam feed, only mods.
I am not the only one talking with you here, IB, and I am proud not ashamed of being part of PV and the entire Voat community and the fact that I have the freedom here to render my opinions.
The "decision" is not mine alone and comments over multiple threads demonstrates that a mistake has been made.
I know you don't take orders from me, IB, and not once did I ever ask you to "follow my orders". I have tried very respectfully to point out that the decision you three made was just wrong. I have demonstrated no arrogance, only a love for Voat and the freedoms that the Admins have given us.
At this point, I think we are just going to have to agree that we disagree.
I want to be very clear on something here too: I still respect and like you very much for all that you have done for v/videos and for Voat, and I don't see that changing. The only thing that disappoints and honestly frustrates the snot out of me me that I cannot find the right words to show you is, the 'decision' that was made was not a good one, not you individually or the mod team.
InnocentBystander ago
You may have missed his stated purpose behind all this. He want us to drop the community definition for spam, and use his personal definition. He does not care what the community thinks and has no interest in discussing it with them.
He thought that spamming us, then whipping 'PV into a frenzy would force us to do what he wants.
You and others are being successfully manipulated.
You are telling us to drop the community rules without involving the community.
That is not what PV stands for.
A small number of users, including a troll, and a user with an axe to grind, counts for little.
I think we're up to four genuine users that have asked for it.
Getting closer, but still not enough.
If we put up a sticky every time someone was unhappy, there would be almost always a sticky that nobody cares about, and we would end up with less community involvement.
So we try to keep them spaced apart, except when something big comes up. This does not (yet) qualify.
No worries, I may get frustrated, but I do not hold a grudge for more than thirty seconds.
If I sound angry at all, I will be back to liking you again after a few moments.
I do respect you, and what you do.
What frustrates me is that you seem to say that as if it was a fact, and not just your opinion.
We do disagree. So who's right will be decided by the community.
InnocentBystander ago
Lies will get you nowhere.
We made no rules. We just inturpret them as best we can.
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
If you want change, you've got your answer on how to achieve it.
If you'd rather stir things up, than settle anything, I'm not going to play with you any more.
InnocentBystander ago
You're putting words in my mouth, and using dishonest arguments (ones that you know are not true, or that have already been addressed).
Doesn't seem like you're interested in constructive dialogue, and I'm not interested in going in circles, so I'm gonna go with the canned reply:
"If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
InnocentBystander ago
The community, to me, includes all of Voat.
That said, those who are prominent users of the sub will carry a bit more weight than users that I've never seen there, and that do seem to be operating on interests other than the sub.
I would not consider a post that contains lies in the title, and posted in PV in an attempt to create drama, to be representative of the community. It could have been enough to lead to a sticky if there had been significant interest, but there isn't.
A general post, to the wider Voat community, in /v/whatever, or elsewhere would carry a lot of weight though.
We try to look past anyone with an agenda. I'm not saying you do, but this environment is not conducive to honest conversation.
That would have been a great way to open the issue.
Though this:
Kinda sucks the sincerity out of it.
But in answer, since that makes about 3 to raise that issue, it is still too small for us to do a sticky over.
However, make a genuine post in a neutral location. If others agree (and it doesn't have to be in huge numbers). Then we would sticky it.
When one user doesn't like the rules, we take note, but not action. If a few-bunch of users doesn't like a rule, then we consult the community.
I'm having a real hard time understanding why you would have an issue with that.
InnocentBystander ago
There's a couple issues being a pushed together. AOU doesn't even have a problem with the ban. He wants us to increase the amount of removals we do, despite the community discussion where it was made clear to us that users want the edge cases to be handled with voats.
You may have missed some of the conversation then. Here is Violentlight summing it up well
If you've followed it that far, you must have seen us say that we are willing to make a sticky if the community is concerned. I've suggested many times : "If you would like to see changes in the rules, start a dialogue with the community. The mods do not make the decisions on rules here without community approval."
If users showed any interest, a sticky would go up.
At this point, it is only one troll, and some over-excited PV users. So no sticky needed. If that changes, one will go up. For now, the next planned feedback post will be in about a month.
"PV community" is a thing though.
When I've said that in past, it is when someone is responding to a user and calling that user PV. It is possible to talk about the community though. Not sure how clear I am being, but those are not the same thing.