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Meme was absolutely being used widely on the internet in the year 2000. Futurologist Robert Wright who wrote the book Nonzero in the late 90’s and wrote for slate.com in 1999 and 2000 used the word consistently. Wright, during the summer of 2000 repeatedly wrote about how we should be expecting a massive terror attack. He actually thought it would be a dirty bomb.
Additionally, I was a regular on the slashdot knock off site and reddit predecessor Plastic.com, run by Automatic Media’s Carl Steadman of Suck.com fame. I have limited archives from that site, and although they aren’t searchable, the term “meme” was in wide circulation in the early 00’s on that site.
So if you were a futurologist or someone on the cutting edge of technology as anyone making Deus Ex certainly would be, you would absolutely be swimming in circles were “French Meme War” would get a few light knowing chuckles.
I played Deus Ex back in the day and loved it. I specifically do remember the “French Meme War” bit, giving it a little laugh and thinking nothing of it. Good times.
Back in 2013 when people cared about the NSA stuff in the news, I remember lurking around on that other site and seeing someone post JC Denton talking to Morpheus. These days the first thought the video invokes out of me is of social media. Another five years and I bet it'll remind me of something else. Deus Ex is just kind of like that. A bunch of moments of foresight and "redpills" that anyone can draw the connection to, that evolve over time to relate to different current events. This has been happening as early as 2001, when the WTC towers went down and some people wondered why this game from 2000 just so happened to be missing two towers in the skyline present from the Ellis Island level (technical reasons, apparently, for some reason they couldn't get them to render in the background).
I remember the word "meme" in 2006 being one name of many names. In YTMND we would put repeating GIFs on a background with superimposed text and looping music. Those were called Sites, because they were hosted on their own subdomain. If a particular Site became popular enough that other Sites popped up copying/parodying it, it would be called a Fad. For other mediums you had Image Macros, Demotivationals, Flash Movies, Photoshops, etc. Labels for the emerging inexplicable sense of humor borne from Internet subcultures that the rest of the world couldn't understand. It really didn't all start to codify under a single unified term until ~2008-ish or so. The words "Internet Phenomena" were too long, so the old stuff like Snowy Owl, All Your Base, Caturday, and Numa Numa have all been retroactively labeled as "memes". And pretty much everything that's come after it. Try showing a friend of yours a standard toptext-image-bottomtext thingy today and call it an image macro. Chances are they'll have no idea what you're talking about, they might even try to correct you and call it a meme.
Point being, Meme didn't mean what it meant in 2000 as it does today. The word existed as an obscure neologism from Richard Dawkins made in 1976. But it didn't have quite the same context. So how'd the Deus Ex writers pick a phrase that managed to be spot-on relevant sixteen years later? It could have been that one of the developers chose the word "Meme" from Richard Dawkins works back in 2000 because it sounded weird and interesting, and it's all just a pure coincidence. Or it could be that they envisioned something similar to what the chain emails of the day were doing, and went through the same cognitive process of finding the right word to describe it all just as the world would later on.
Or maybe something else. I dunno, food for thought.
when the WTC towers went down and some people wondered why this game from 2000 just so happened to be missing two towers in the skyline present from the Ellis Island level (technical reasons, apparently, for some reason they couldn't get them to render in the background).
You mean the couldn't get them to render because the PLANES in the background were interfering?
The term "meme" was coined by Dawkins in his book The Selfish Gene (1976), to describe something which was mental but had "genetic properties" of transmission and evolution.
It is still very strange that a video game from that year would ever refer to this usage of the term. Internet meme, as a term, came much later, certainly several years after 2000. Not only that, but the idea of a "Meme War"?
It's the same definition. Many internet memes are ironic, and thus not entirely serious, scientific memes, but that's the humor. To suggest that they are.
I'd dispute that, and not so much that he is wrong in a comprehensive way. Just incomplete. He isn't 100% wrong, but that's precisely why the immutability of his conviction of being 100% right rubs me the wrong way. I can respect it to an extent because I think he perceive himself to be in a battle with a religious establishment, so on one level he needs to be convicted to fight the fight he thinks he's fighting.
On the other hand, Darwinism is almost certainly wrong in some fundamental ways. Again, doesn't make it a mistake. The mental power of Charles Darwin and some of the subsequent biologists and geneticists is fucking mind blowing. But I take it as the mark of any good scientist to recognize one of the key parts of scientific theory...you're always a little wrong. That is, time always finds a way to refine what we think we currently know. I think science would be a better thing if more of them today acted this way, instead of like priests of a new clerical establishment.
I think science would be a better thing if more of them today acted this way, instead of like priests of a new clerical establishment.
Amen. And what bothers me is I feel like real advancements at universities are "held back" if professors wish to steal credit or a superior idea contradicts their ideas (especially if the prof realizes they're wrong). I don't understand how universities every produce anything with the things I've seen. Near as I can tell, they're simply ramping up the volume of students and waiting for something to come along for free, rather than actually teaching well or otherwise trying to advance anything whatsoever.
It's all been co-opted by optics and marketing. The publish or perish paradigm is just a function to secure better endowments, more grant money, and attract more students to the university. The scientific theory has been overrun by the business model.
I think science would be a better thing if more of them today acted this way, instead of like priests of a new clerical establishment.
If you regularly admit fault in front of an audience while your opponents double down and never waver, the audience often goes for the confident fool because he seems less unsure.
Yes, I agree. It's a natural bias and a big pain in the ass. That's why I mentioned earlier that I have to respect it to an extent, because he is publicly debating religion.
That’s called predictive programming. They put content out that appears they predicted but in fact most major game developers are affiliated and believe in transhumanism. Bill Joy of Sun Microsystems wrote a piece in Wired mag titled: “Why the Future Doesn’t Need Us”. This group of globalists want no borders, they want world government. They also want mass depopulation and the end of the marriage of man and machine, to live forever. Their beliefs, not mine.
Many of the events you are witnessing have been planned. Implanting globalist ideology in music, TV, games, movies may be capable of creating acceptance of the idea allowing its fruition, rather than its resistance.
This is why the date September 11, 2001 was used for the expiration date of Neo’s drivers license, in the first Matrix. It’s why Fox’s show The Lone Gunman pilot episode plot was that of deepstate high jacking of an airliner that is flown into the World Trade Center towers in order to foment war for the military industrial complex. That episode aired BEFORE 9/11.
It’s also why the prop master of Batman changed the name of the southern island of Gotham to Sandy Hook, visible on the map in Batman The Dark Knight. The prop master also lived in Sandy Hook and died of a CIA heart attack.
Not everything is as it seems. Discernment is key.
t’s also why the prop master of Batman changed the name of the southern island of Gotham to Sandy Hook, visible on the map in Batman The Dark Knight. The prop master also lived in Sandy Hook and died of a CIA heart attack.
I think this one for sure means nothing. Renamed or not it doesn't have anything to do with a shooting or the specifics of it.
This is why the date September 11, 2001 was used for the expiration date of Neo’s drivers license
If there's no reference to the events at 9-11 then this is pretty much saying "9-11-2001, the date, was written somewhere in a movie".
YOU think it means nothing. But everything done in movies is planned ahead of time. The prop master was told to change the name. To a name that would be used to demonize gun owners and as we can see, go after Alex Jones. July 2012, a shooting at a movie theatre where the Batman The Dark knight Rises is playing. December 2012, a shooting at a school connected to the same Batman movie. This time the shooting occurs at a school with the same name as an island in Gotham city, which was changed specifically for that movie. Previous Batman Gotham maps do not show use “Sandy Hook”.
It’s called symbolism and they’ve been throwing shit like that in our faces for years. You’re just not paying attention. Rather, you disagree for the sake of being a punk.
The expiration date in the Matrix was years BEFORE the 9/11 event. Coincidence that a date in a movie just so happen to be the exact date of an event bigger than Pearl Harbor? Literally impossible to be a coincidence but very possible it was predictive programming.
Lmao. It must be mental gymnastics all day and night in your head.
You would be surprised, the open borders thing has been around pop culture since at least the 70s with the whole anti war why can't we all just get along movement.
You should look into TV shows from the 40s and 50s. Even going back that far, the anti white male propaganda was going strong. Obviously not directly related to open borders, but they do share the same (((origin)))
Yeah, you're right but it's the overarching theme of THE WORLD here, not merely talking about a communist nation dreaming of it happening elsewhere. So there's still something extra to it here - Deus Ex got it right and projected where the world was going to be in the future though.
I guess I don't know how communism was talked about in soviet russia or other communist nations like in asia.
Not to derail the conversation, but do you think those Asian places that went commie went commie because they were always communists and they were practicing it before it was modernized into what we know as communism?
In Marx's/Lenins writings it says that communism will only work if all of the world is subjugated to its rules. Soviet Union was always trying to spread, funding revolutionary groups all other the world. At one point they created organisation called "Comintern" which was meant to be like EU but for the whole world. Globalist capitalism does same thing by opening "free" markets abroad using organisations like IMF, WTO, UN, EU thus letting the flow of foreign cheap goods and workforce, and eventually walls crumble. Same goal, different approach.
Asians definitely have more collectivist and totalitarian tendencies. It was probably more easier for them to transition from absolute monarchy to communist totalitarianism. That being said, Commies in asia just like anywhere else were not direct extension of old monarchist system, they fought against them in civil wars. So it was not a straightforward transition by any means.
it was not a straightforward transition by any means.
I think this was only the case due to more advanced technology coming in and empowering people around the old system, which then meant that less powerful people could assume the throne, or at least had a shot at it (and they took it). Information travel was so slow back then (hell, even 70 years ago it wasn't fast enough IMO) even if the less powerful people were wrong, they were going to try anyways because they didn't know better.
I spent time in patriotic circles in my country when I was a teen. It was around 1999/2000. I learned about NWO, Kalergi, the whole history of Holocaust revisionism et cetera. I am sure the Protocols of the elders of Zion mentioned open borders and race-mixing as well, so the ideas have been out there for decades. The term meme defimitely meant an idea as a self-proliferating idea in 2000, but it was not in mainstream use, more of a fancy scientific term to throw around when philosophizing about information and culture.
Yeah, we are talking pre-9/11. These are ideas that would have "went over" at that time about as smoothly as rocks on white bread. Maybe the idea of a Communistic, globalist plot isn't as foreign for a bit of fiction as I'm thinking, but damn, I just couldn't have thought up our current reality back in 2000, even if I'd tried.
I was just trying to think of what could be considered the first real "internet meme". There was Starwars Kid, peanut butter jelly time. Those came to mind. I mean, we're talking Ebaums World era. But these still came well after the year 2000. In 2000, I don't think there was anyone, anywhere who'd voiced the idea of an "internet meme" yet. So if the game used that term, it's striking.
Yes, and that's what blew my mind here. Like it's described as the situation is today. I'll go take a sceenshot and post it in the OP for everyone to see. Check back there if you want to read it's actual text.
the people that first really started spreading the idea of 'meme wars' obtained their inspiration from deus ex.
thought of this today. however the word meme still needed to catch on (as i stated previously, i think 2006 was the earliest critical mass for usage of the word "meme"), AND then those people needed to refrain from calling things like board raids "meme wars" with having the term at the tip of their tongue. I was using the internet quite a bit back then and I don't recall a single use of the term "meme war"
I just played another session of Deus Ex and I'm in love with this game. I haven't played a game like this in a very long time, and I think I'm going to write up something about how gaming has changed. I don't see quality games like this coming out regularly (although I've largely fallen out of gaming), but even if they didm they'd probably have to get everything perfect and add in something that no one has thought of. And I mean no one. or very, very few people. Not even sure this is possible anymore as games "haven't changed that much" as people say.
But yeah, I'm going to thoroughly enjoy this game. I think I should make some videos or commentary on it, just in case someone else hasn't done a commentary like mine. We'll see.
No one is going to believe this story, but I swear to God it's true.
Back in the early days of the internet, I was the first person I know of to use the word "trolling" to describe what I did to have fun online. This was in the 90's AOL era. I chose the word "trolling" because it's a fishing term, and phishing was already a thing that people did. In fishing, the process of trolling is when you use a small outboard motor to move the boat around without firing up your main engine and scaring the fish. This small outboard is called a trolling motor. Since internet trolling is all about using clever ruses to get the best of people without them knowing your intent, I thought it worked. But none of the people I used the word on IRL ever responded to it. How bizarre that years later, trolling became a sort of pseudo-religion, and my original terminology for it somehow became the default. I chalk it up to the collective consciousness.
I believe your story, because I invented Strawberry-Kiwi as a flavor in the late 80s, watched it take off in the 90s, and nobody believes me.
I saw a strawberry floating in a container of kiwis at a salad bar, and started telling everyone it was a strawberry flavored kiwi, not a strawberry. A dude in nice clothes said it was a good idea and wrote it down.
Then it became the mystery flavor in Starburst, circa '93.
I believe it, had similar shit happen on multiple occasions.
If it's a good idea, and you use it long enough, it'll spread. The ideas that spread the fastest tend to be the ones that are obvious. It also helps if you convince others that the idea as theres all along.
And of course theres plato's "realm of the forms", where things exist as perfect abstractions, as universal ideas. The idea of the wheel. The idea of fire. Yes, it's all inventions, but why? Because the ideas, the forms, are useful in their application. I've long suspected the same is true of human personalities, each suiting the various roles people play in society. Like I wonder, is the idea of a napoleon like figure, hannibal, alexander the great, a recurring meme, an idea, a 'form', that arises because of circumstance and environment, over and over? If so, is it universal? Like, is it something so universal that other planets, other alien species have their own historic equivalent of bonaparte? It'd be the closest thing to reincarnation wouldn't it?
The ego dies, perhaps the id (or even the super ego) is forever.
Since internet trolling is all about using clever ruses to get the best of people without them knowing your intent
I've always thought the term meant to get a LARGE reaction out of the trollee(s), especially in relation to the effort by the troller, while taking little to no damage from the interaction.
Your definition might explain why everyone seems to call anything that simply gets an unfavorable response "trolling", even when it's not happening.
Someone a few days ago was using the word trolling to describe two people having a debate. I mean.... two people having a debate (where they obviously disagree) is as much trolling as is two people punching each other and landing blows on each other.... that's definitely not what trolling means, and this word's usage is all over the map. I swear most people use the word to be trendy, like they're socially cuing that they're "in" on the cool "internet stuff" if they say the word.
You used the word correctly, but I think the definition needs unpacking.
Anyways, more about the game. I was reading some more lore in the game, and it talks about borders among nations in the world being dissolved and anarchy ensuing. This was UNTHINKABLE in the year 2000, and, to my knowledge, the term "open borders" (the game didn't use this exact term btw) wasn't in mainstream usage until 2016 as well.
It's interesting to note that the bridge troll from the story "Three Billy Goats Gruff," which originates that concept, did not engage in what we would consider "trolling." Rather, he got trolled by the billy goats. The smallest goat begs him not to gobble him up, but rather to wait for the bigger brother, who in turn tells him to wait for his even bigger brother, who arrives and fucks the troll up. Knocks him off the bridge, and they never see him again.
Back in 2013 when people cared about NSA, I remember lurking around on that other site and seeing someone post JC Denton talking to Morpheus in Everett's house. These days the first thought it invokes out of me is of social media. Another five years and I bet it'll remind me of something else.
Deus Ex is just kind of like that. A bunch of moments of foresight and "redpills" that anyone can draw the connection to. I remember the word meme being one name of many names that we had to describe the inexplicable
It could have been that one of the developers chose the word meme back in 2000 . Or it could be
I read that as Eidos, the publisher, who are French Canadian but Ion Storm the designer was out of Texas.
All I'm asking is whether the writing in the game was talking about actual French happenings or fictional. People from outside of France can make statements about the French.
As far as that goes I don't know, I wasn't very interested in French politics back in the late 90's. I know they had a bunch of revolutions so that might have some play in it. I remember watching an interview with Warren Specter on ZDTV when the game came out discussing his research into real world conspiracy theories, so that might be referencing a real thing.
The word meme has been floating around the net since the 90's at least. For example there was the site memepool which shutdown in the late 90's or early 2000's. It was a fun site where users would submit interesting links.
Meme is any self replicating idea. It's just become more commonly used because of how quickly and widely things spread via the Internet. It's been a word for a long time.
It may have become more popular on the Internet more recently than 2000 (and with a slightly different meaning), but they no doubt were using it pretty much in its original form. It is not as though the word was never used or understood before the internet and chan culture.
It is not as though the word was never used or understood before the internet and chan culture.
Which is why a carefully phrased my post.
The term Meme War though came into popular usage in 2016 though, which is the main point here. They were advanced enough with memes to be using them as a political movement as late as 2000
A neurologist I know wrote a book way back in the 70's and dedicated it to his, "Viking memes".
I read it in the early 90's. Had to look up the term then. Once memeology became trendy, it was easy to see the deviation from the original definition. However, this does not diminish the effectiveness of this mode of communication; a sort of hieroglyphic abbreviation of complex ideas and emotions.
We've always known the power of symbols. Look at the McDonalds or Disney logo for example. Fedex. VW. You know exactly what I am talking about, as soon as I say it. Difference is, now we are wielding that power.
I'm not talking about it predicting the future. I'm saying that back in 2000 (regardless of the date in-game) they knew this concept, it's wording and it's application.
It wasn't common knowledge, but it wasn't completely unknown.
Again, the concept of "meme war" has to be dreamt up after getting used in that way. I've never even heard someone express a notion of such a thing other than describing other cultures' behaviors conflicting with others, and no one ever called that a "meme war", which is the point here since they're talking about posting pamphlets and using the INTERNET as their primary means of waging said meme war to propagate memes. Again, back in 2000 most people werne't using the internet hardly at all. Hell, most people weren't using the internet regularly until 2012 and I'd even argue as late as late 2013, early 2014.
hedgefundhog ago
Oh sweet summer child
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NotHereForPizza ago
The 100th monkey effect existed and was in use before any of us on the internet ever discovered it.
frankenmine ago
Richard Dawkins coined the term in 1974. It just became popular recently.
MyOnlyAccount ago
see other comments for response
TheKingAndTheLandR1 ago
the year 2000, when it wasn't even conceivable to me or anyone I knewlol classic science fiction would blow your mind.
sodasplash ago
Meme was absolutely being used widely on the internet in the year 2000. Futurologist Robert Wright who wrote the book Nonzero in the late 90’s and wrote for slate.com in 1999 and 2000 used the word consistently. Wright, during the summer of 2000 repeatedly wrote about how we should be expecting a massive terror attack. He actually thought it would be a dirty bomb.
Additionally, I was a regular on the slashdot knock off site and reddit predecessor Plastic.com, run by Automatic Media’s Carl Steadman of Suck.com fame. I have limited archives from that site, and although they aren’t searchable, the term “meme” was in wide circulation in the early 00’s on that site.
So if you were a futurologist or someone on the cutting edge of technology as anyone making Deus Ex certainly would be, you would absolutely be swimming in circles were “French Meme War” would get a few light knowing chuckles.
I played Deus Ex back in the day and loved it. I specifically do remember the “French Meme War” bit, giving it a little laugh and thinking nothing of it. Good times.
1Pac ago
Deus Ex was predictive programming. There's a ton of RL foreshadowing in the game.
J20 ago
The Deus Ex bit in question.
Back in 2013 when people cared about the NSA stuff in the news, I remember lurking around on that other site and seeing someone post JC Denton talking to Morpheus. These days the first thought the video invokes out of me is of social media. Another five years and I bet it'll remind me of something else. Deus Ex is just kind of like that. A bunch of moments of foresight and "redpills" that anyone can draw the connection to, that evolve over time to relate to different current events. This has been happening as early as 2001, when the WTC towers went down and some people wondered why this game from 2000 just so happened to be missing two towers in the skyline present from the Ellis Island level (technical reasons, apparently, for some reason they couldn't get them to render in the background).
I remember the word "meme" in 2006 being one name of many names. In YTMND we would put repeating GIFs on a background with superimposed text and looping music. Those were called Sites, because they were hosted on their own subdomain. If a particular Site became popular enough that other Sites popped up copying/parodying it, it would be called a Fad. For other mediums you had Image Macros, Demotivationals, Flash Movies, Photoshops, etc. Labels for the emerging inexplicable sense of humor borne from Internet subcultures that the rest of the world couldn't understand. It really didn't all start to codify under a single unified term until ~2008-ish or so. The words "Internet Phenomena" were too long, so the old stuff like Snowy Owl, All Your Base, Caturday, and Numa Numa have all been retroactively labeled as "memes". And pretty much everything that's come after it. Try showing a friend of yours a standard toptext-image-bottomtext thingy today and call it an image macro. Chances are they'll have no idea what you're talking about, they might even try to correct you and call it a meme.
Point being, Meme didn't mean what it meant in 2000 as it does today. The word existed as an obscure neologism from Richard Dawkins made in 1976. But it didn't have quite the same context. So how'd the Deus Ex writers pick a phrase that managed to be spot-on relevant sixteen years later? It could have been that one of the developers chose the word "Meme" from Richard Dawkins works back in 2000 because it sounded weird and interesting, and it's all just a pure coincidence. Or it could be that they envisioned something similar to what the chain emails of the day were doing, and went through the same cognitive process of finding the right word to describe it all just as the world would later on.
Or maybe something else. I dunno, food for thought.
MyOnlyAccount ago
You mean the couldn't get them to render because the PLANES in the background were interfering?
J20 ago
Goddammit you're right, Ion Storm were the Grandjews behind Mossad all along.
Everything I know is a lie.
jesus_is_lord ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp8NF4P_8j4 .
chirogonemd ago
The term "meme" was coined by Dawkins in his book The Selfish Gene (1976), to describe something which was mental but had "genetic properties" of transmission and evolution.
It is still very strange that a video game from that year would ever refer to this usage of the term. Internet meme, as a term, came much later, certainly several years after 2000. Not only that, but the idea of a "Meme War"?
AbjectSubstance ago
It's the same definition. Many internet memes are ironic, and thus not entirely serious, scientific memes, but that's the humor. To suggest that they are.
CrudOMatic ago
He was not wrong, anon. He might be pretentious, but that doesn't mean he was wrong.
chirogonemd ago
I'd dispute that, and not so much that he is wrong in a comprehensive way. Just incomplete. He isn't 100% wrong, but that's precisely why the immutability of his conviction of being 100% right rubs me the wrong way. I can respect it to an extent because I think he perceive himself to be in a battle with a religious establishment, so on one level he needs to be convicted to fight the fight he thinks he's fighting.
On the other hand, Darwinism is almost certainly wrong in some fundamental ways. Again, doesn't make it a mistake. The mental power of Charles Darwin and some of the subsequent biologists and geneticists is fucking mind blowing. But I take it as the mark of any good scientist to recognize one of the key parts of scientific theory...you're always a little wrong. That is, time always finds a way to refine what we think we currently know. I think science would be a better thing if more of them today acted this way, instead of like priests of a new clerical establishment.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Amen. And what bothers me is I feel like real advancements at universities are "held back" if professors wish to steal credit or a superior idea contradicts their ideas (especially if the prof realizes they're wrong). I don't understand how universities every produce anything with the things I've seen. Near as I can tell, they're simply ramping up the volume of students and waiting for something to come along for free, rather than actually teaching well or otherwise trying to advance anything whatsoever.
chirogonemd ago
It's all been co-opted by optics and marketing. The publish or perish paradigm is just a function to secure better endowments, more grant money, and attract more students to the university. The scientific theory has been overrun by the business model.
VoatVoyeur ago
If you regularly admit fault in front of an audience while your opponents double down and never waver, the audience often goes for the confident fool because he seems less unsure.
chirogonemd ago
Yes, I agree. It's a natural bias and a big pain in the ass. That's why I mentioned earlier that I have to respect it to an extent, because he is publicly debating religion.
VoatVoyeur ago
Thank you, sir. Respect.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Exactly.
ORACONX ago
That’s called predictive programming. They put content out that appears they predicted but in fact most major game developers are affiliated and believe in transhumanism. Bill Joy of Sun Microsystems wrote a piece in Wired mag titled: “Why the Future Doesn’t Need Us”. This group of globalists want no borders, they want world government. They also want mass depopulation and the end of the marriage of man and machine, to live forever. Their beliefs, not mine.
Many of the events you are witnessing have been planned. Implanting globalist ideology in music, TV, games, movies may be capable of creating acceptance of the idea allowing its fruition, rather than its resistance.
This is why the date September 11, 2001 was used for the expiration date of Neo’s drivers license, in the first Matrix. It’s why Fox’s show The Lone Gunman pilot episode plot was that of deepstate high jacking of an airliner that is flown into the World Trade Center towers in order to foment war for the military industrial complex. That episode aired BEFORE 9/11.
It’s also why the prop master of Batman changed the name of the southern island of Gotham to Sandy Hook, visible on the map in Batman The Dark Knight. The prop master also lived in Sandy Hook and died of a CIA heart attack.
Not everything is as it seems. Discernment is key.
MyOnlyAccount ago
I think this one for sure means nothing. Renamed or not it doesn't have anything to do with a shooting or the specifics of it.
If there's no reference to the events at 9-11 then this is pretty much saying "9-11-2001, the date, was written somewhere in a movie".
ORACONX ago
YOU think it means nothing. But everything done in movies is planned ahead of time. The prop master was told to change the name. To a name that would be used to demonize gun owners and as we can see, go after Alex Jones. July 2012, a shooting at a movie theatre where the Batman The Dark knight Rises is playing. December 2012, a shooting at a school connected to the same Batman movie. This time the shooting occurs at a school with the same name as an island in Gotham city, which was changed specifically for that movie. Previous Batman Gotham maps do not show use “Sandy Hook”.
It’s called symbolism and they’ve been throwing shit like that in our faces for years. You’re just not paying attention. Rather, you disagree for the sake of being a punk.
The expiration date in the Matrix was years BEFORE the 9/11 event. Coincidence that a date in a movie just so happen to be the exact date of an event bigger than Pearl Harbor? Literally impossible to be a coincidence but very possible it was predictive programming.
Lmao. It must be mental gymnastics all day and night in your head.
Hysterical ago
You would be surprised, the open borders thing has been around pop culture since at least the 70s with the whole anti war why can't we all just get along movement.
You should look into TV shows from the 40s and 50s. Even going back that far, the anti white male propaganda was going strong. Obviously not directly related to open borders, but they do share the same (((origin)))
DebGS54 ago
Also, very plainly, the song “Imagine”.....a lot said.
Truthsayer9000 ago
Thats like an old communist utopia, also EU
MyOnlyAccount ago
Yeah, you're right but it's the overarching theme of THE WORLD here, not merely talking about a communist nation dreaming of it happening elsewhere. So there's still something extra to it here - Deus Ex got it right and projected where the world was going to be in the future though.
I guess I don't know how communism was talked about in soviet russia or other communist nations like in asia.
Not to derail the conversation, but do you think those Asian places that went commie went commie because they were always communists and they were practicing it before it was modernized into what we know as communism?
Truthsayer9000 ago
In Marx's/Lenins writings it says that communism will only work if all of the world is subjugated to its rules. Soviet Union was always trying to spread, funding revolutionary groups all other the world. At one point they created organisation called "Comintern" which was meant to be like EU but for the whole world. Globalist capitalism does same thing by opening "free" markets abroad using organisations like IMF, WTO, UN, EU thus letting the flow of foreign cheap goods and workforce, and eventually walls crumble. Same goal, different approach.
Asians definitely have more collectivist and totalitarian tendencies. It was probably more easier for them to transition from absolute monarchy to communist totalitarianism. That being said, Commies in asia just like anywhere else were not direct extension of old monarchist system, they fought against them in civil wars. So it was not a straightforward transition by any means.
MyOnlyAccount ago
I think this was only the case due to more advanced technology coming in and empowering people around the old system, which then meant that less powerful people could assume the throne, or at least had a shot at it (and they took it). Information travel was so slow back then (hell, even 70 years ago it wasn't fast enough IMO) even if the less powerful people were wrong, they were going to try anyways because they didn't know better.
captainstrange ago
just because it doesn't occur to someone doesn't mean it's not a possibility.
Thats the nature of reality: it has the potential to be more absurd than fiction.
Iornukrum ago
I spent time in patriotic circles in my country when I was a teen. It was around 1999/2000. I learned about NWO, Kalergi, the whole history of Holocaust revisionism et cetera. I am sure the Protocols of the elders of Zion mentioned open borders and race-mixing as well, so the ideas have been out there for decades. The term meme defimitely meant an idea as a self-proliferating idea in 2000, but it was not in mainstream use, more of a fancy scientific term to throw around when philosophizing about information and culture.
chirogonemd ago
Did the game actually use the term "meme war"?
Yeah, we are talking pre-9/11. These are ideas that would have "went over" at that time about as smoothly as rocks on white bread. Maybe the idea of a Communistic, globalist plot isn't as foreign for a bit of fiction as I'm thinking, but damn, I just couldn't have thought up our current reality back in 2000, even if I'd tried.
I was just trying to think of what could be considered the first real "internet meme". There was Starwars Kid, peanut butter jelly time. Those came to mind. I mean, we're talking Ebaums World era. But these still came well after the year 2000. In 2000, I don't think there was anyone, anywhere who'd voiced the idea of an "internet meme" yet. So if the game used that term, it's striking.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Yes, and that's what blew my mind here. Like it's described as the situation is today. I'll go take a sceenshot and post it in the OP for everyone to see. Check back there if you want to read it's actual text.
captainstrange ago
Multiple possibilities here
someone predicted it
it was always going to be a widespread idea, the idea of 'memes' and 'meme war', and multiple people came up with it
the people that first really started spreading the idea of 'meme wars' obtained their inspiration from deus ex.
MyOnlyAccount ago
thought of this today. however the word meme still needed to catch on (as i stated previously, i think 2006 was the earliest critical mass for usage of the word "meme"), AND then those people needed to refrain from calling things like board raids "meme wars" with having the term at the tip of their tongue. I was using the internet quite a bit back then and I don't recall a single use of the term "meme war"
Laurentius_the_pyro ago
MyOnlyAccount ago
There is no prediction of anyone winning or losing a meme war in the game nor are there any predictions attached to the lore I mentioned in the game.
Laurentius_the_pyro ago
Stop ruining this.
MyOnlyAccount ago
I just played another session of Deus Ex and I'm in love with this game. I haven't played a game like this in a very long time, and I think I'm going to write up something about how gaming has changed. I don't see quality games like this coming out regularly (although I've largely fallen out of gaming), but even if they didm they'd probably have to get everything perfect and add in something that no one has thought of. And I mean no one. or very, very few people. Not even sure this is possible anymore as games "haven't changed that much" as people say.
But yeah, I'm going to thoroughly enjoy this game. I think I should make some videos or commentary on it, just in case someone else hasn't done a commentary like mine. We'll see.
Diarrhea_Van_Frank ago
Don’t focus on the wrong part of the story
Mylon ago
Ssh. Just let it happen.
SmokeyMeadow ago
No one is going to believe this story, but I swear to God it's true.
Back in the early days of the internet, I was the first person I know of to use the word "trolling" to describe what I did to have fun online. This was in the 90's AOL era. I chose the word "trolling" because it's a fishing term, and phishing was already a thing that people did. In fishing, the process of trolling is when you use a small outboard motor to move the boat around without firing up your main engine and scaring the fish. This small outboard is called a trolling motor. Since internet trolling is all about using clever ruses to get the best of people without them knowing your intent, I thought it worked. But none of the people I used the word on IRL ever responded to it. How bizarre that years later, trolling became a sort of pseudo-religion, and my original terminology for it somehow became the default. I chalk it up to the collective consciousness.
TheKingAndTheLandR1 ago
Got milk.
VoatVoyeur ago
I believe your story, because I invented Strawberry-Kiwi as a flavor in the late 80s, watched it take off in the 90s, and nobody believes me.
I saw a strawberry floating in a container of kiwis at a salad bar, and started telling everyone it was a strawberry flavored kiwi, not a strawberry. A dude in nice clothes said it was a good idea and wrote it down.
Then it became the mystery flavor in Starburst, circa '93.
frankenmine ago
You independently developed the same term the same way. Internet trolling derives from fishing, not fantasy.
captainstrange ago
I believe it, had similar shit happen on multiple occasions.
If it's a good idea, and you use it long enough, it'll spread. The ideas that spread the fastest tend to be the ones that are obvious. It also helps if you convince others that the idea as theres all along.
And of course theres plato's "realm of the forms", where things exist as perfect abstractions, as universal ideas. The idea of the wheel. The idea of fire. Yes, it's all inventions, but why? Because the ideas, the forms, are useful in their application. I've long suspected the same is true of human personalities, each suiting the various roles people play in society. Like I wonder, is the idea of a napoleon like figure, hannibal, alexander the great, a recurring meme, an idea, a 'form', that arises because of circumstance and environment, over and over? If so, is it universal? Like, is it something so universal that other planets, other alien species have their own historic equivalent of bonaparte? It'd be the closest thing to reincarnation wouldn't it?
The ego dies, perhaps the id (or even the super ego) is forever.
MyOnlyAccount ago
I've always thought the term meant to get a LARGE reaction out of the trollee(s), especially in relation to the effort by the troller, while taking little to no damage from the interaction.
Your definition might explain why everyone seems to call anything that simply gets an unfavorable response "trolling", even when it's not happening.
Someone a few days ago was using the word trolling to describe two people having a debate. I mean.... two people having a debate (where they obviously disagree) is as much trolling as is two people punching each other and landing blows on each other.... that's definitely not what trolling means, and this word's usage is all over the map. I swear most people use the word to be trendy, like they're socially cuing that they're "in" on the cool "internet stuff" if they say the word.
You used the word correctly, but I think the definition needs unpacking.
Anyways, more about the game. I was reading some more lore in the game, and it talks about borders among nations in the world being dissolved and anarchy ensuing. This was UNTHINKABLE in the year 2000, and, to my knowledge, the term "open borders" (the game didn't use this exact term btw) wasn't in mainstream usage until 2016 as well.
VoatVoyeur ago
At this point trolling is a generic term for fucking with people in any way, clever or not.
People also use it to get out if being accountable for things they say, "just trolling u bro lol chill"
MyOnlyAccount ago
Yes to all of that
Gladers ago
I could dump
unlimitedrulebook ago
I like your origin for it better. The troll that lives under the bridge doesn't really make any sense.
SmokeyMeadow ago
It's interesting to note that the bridge troll from the story "Three Billy Goats Gruff," which originates that concept, did not engage in what we would consider "trolling." Rather, he got trolled by the billy goats. The smallest goat begs him not to gobble him up, but rather to wait for the bigger brother, who in turn tells him to wait for his even bigger brother, who arrives and fucks the troll up. Knocks him off the bridge, and they never see him again.
J20 ago
Back in 2013 when people cared about NSA, I remember lurking around on that other site and seeing someone post JC Denton talking to Morpheus in Everett's house. These days the first thought it invokes out of me is of social media. Another five years and I bet it'll remind me of something else.
Deus Ex is just kind of like that. A bunch of moments of foresight and "redpills" that anyone can draw the connection to. I remember the word meme being one name of many names that we had to describe the inexplicable
It could have been that one of the developers chose the word meme back in 2000 . Or it could be
seidoken ago
Warren specter was a genius and the game was made in Texas not France.
DanijelStark ago
For those who do not know - Warren Specter also worked on all Steve Jackson tabletop games , including the so called "Illuminati Card Game" .
He also worked on many Ultima titles , Thief franchise , and System Shock franchise .
MyOnlyAccount ago
Why did you say this?
seidoken ago
I read that as Eidos, the publisher, who are French Canadian but Ion Storm the designer was out of Texas.
MyOnlyAccount ago
All I'm asking is whether the writing in the game was talking about actual French happenings or fictional. People from outside of France can make statements about the French.
seidoken ago
As far as that goes I don't know, I wasn't very interested in French politics back in the late 90's. I know they had a bunch of revolutions so that might have some play in it. I remember watching an interview with Warren Specter on ZDTV when the game came out discussing his research into real world conspiracy theories, so that might be referencing a real thing.
Fiyanggu ago
The word meme has been floating around the net since the 90's at least. For example there was the site memepool which shutdown in the late 90's or early 2000's. It was a fun site where users would submit interesting links.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Ok, thanks for the factoid.
sodasplash ago
Memepool was a major website in 2000.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Again, thanks. Got any cool factoids or background about the site?
enormousatom ago
Meme is any self replicating idea. It's just become more commonly used because of how quickly and widely things spread via the Internet. It's been a word for a long time.
Honkpiller ago
So because George was a name for a long time it wouldn't be weird to you if a book from 1940 had a George W bush in it? Meme Wars is a peculiar term
MyOnlyAccount ago
I wasn't arguing this and it's not even the point of the psot
matt ago
“self replicating idea”
TheKingAndTheLandR1 ago
Mind virus, like religion.
matt ago
language is a virus
VoatVoyeur ago
No, language is the structure of a mind.
What you place inside that structure is the virus.
Thisismyvoatusername ago
It may have become more popular on the Internet more recently than 2000 (and with a slightly different meaning), but they no doubt were using it pretty much in its original form. It is not as though the word was never used or understood before the internet and chan culture.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Which is why a carefully phrased my post.
The term Meme War though came into popular usage in 2016 though, which is the main point here. They were advanced enough with memes to be using them as a political movement as late as 2000
Corpse_washer ago
Memetics is ancient secret knowledge. Many still dont understand why give it away.
Dirty_Money ago
A neurologist I know wrote a book way back in the 70's and dedicated it to his, "Viking memes".
I read it in the early 90's. Had to look up the term then. Once memeology became trendy, it was easy to see the deviation from the original definition. However, this does not diminish the effectiveness of this mode of communication; a sort of hieroglyphic abbreviation of complex ideas and emotions.
TheSeer ago
We've always known the power of symbols. Look at the McDonalds or Disney logo for example. Fedex. VW. You know exactly what I am talking about, as soon as I say it. Difference is, now we are wielding that power.
Jungun ago
I fell down the kek/pepe rabbit hole. Some really fascinating takes on how things transpired during the 2016 election.
drakesdoom2 ago
Near future conspiracy is the unique thing of the whole series. It's hit or miss you just don't notice the misses.
MyOnlyAccount ago
I'm not talking about it predicting the future. I'm saying that back in 2000 (regardless of the date in-game) they knew this concept, it's wording and it's application.
WhitePaladin ago
Warren Specter was OD on redpills on 2000, the game is full of them.
drakesdoom2 ago
It wasn't common knowledge, but it wasn't completely unknown.
MyOnlyAccount ago
Again, the concept of "meme war" has to be dreamt up after getting used in that way. I've never even heard someone express a notion of such a thing other than describing other cultures' behaviors conflicting with others, and no one ever called that a "meme war", which is the point here since they're talking about posting pamphlets and using the INTERNET as their primary means of waging said meme war to propagate memes. Again, back in 2000 most people werne't using the internet hardly at all. Hell, most people weren't using the internet regularly until 2012 and I'd even argue as late as late 2013, early 2014.