No, we're a restoration of the church that Jesus Christ set up during His ministry. It was necessary to restore that church because humanity had corrupted Christianity to such an extent.
If Freemasonry stole some symbols from the primitive church, it's logical that such symbols would be restored to their rightful place in Christ's restored church.
I would have more respect for the LDS if only they would stop lying to people and themselves that they are the “restored church of Jesus Christ.” The whole thing is a facade to trick people into joining the church and then little by little indoctrinate them into something that is nothing near true Christianity. Joseph Smith was a known charlatan who on numerous occasions would tell stories about the supposed early Israelites after the evening meal as entertainment for his family. Even a church bishop admitted that the Book of Mormon was a false document after researching it, but placed his faith in the Doctrine and Covenants because he didn’t want to admit Mormonism is a made up religion just as Scientology is.
Well to say otherwise would be the lie, because that's what we believe. Just because it runs counter to your beliefs doesn't make it a lie.
The rest of your comment is not true. Except maybe the bishop part, I don't know about that. There are tens of thousands of bishops and more former bishops. Wouldn't surprise me if you could find one who found issue with the Book of Mormon. But the Book of Mormon continues to withstand academic scrutiny, so I suspect this individual's viewpoints could be readily addressed.
I’m trying to find the book he wrote. It was back in the late 1800’s. There hasn’t been any third-party academic scrutiny that I’m aware of that supports the BoM. Only biased research coming from within the LDS Church itself.
Why is such research invalid? If it's academically rigorous it's every bit as valid as quality research originating outside the Church. Would you expect LDS academics to simply sit back and let the world prove their case for them? Just because it contradicts your viewpoint doesn't make it biased.
All that said, the veracity of the Book of Mormon is best evaluated by reading it with a sincere heart then asking God if it's true. Once you have that witness from God, all the academic arguments are reduced to mere curiosities. I have received that witness.
The truth of the Book of Mormon proves the divinity of Joseph Smith's calling as a modern prophet.
The divinity of Joseph's calling proves the authenticity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Many people do not want to go down that road, so they try to discredit the Book of Mormon any way they can, including with intellectually disingenuous arguments. It's only wise to counter such efforts.
I said it is biased. There is a vested interest in proving the BoM to be true, so any research done by the LDS is skewed towards that end rather than being objective. If all academic arguments are reduced to curiosities, then why bother doing anything to prove the Book of Mormon at all? Your argument is circular. When confronted with facts it’s common to discount it and cling to faith because faith, by its very nature, cannot be proven. So anything can be believed. Belief doesn’t make it fact. The Book of Mormon does not prove Joseph Smith’s divinity. L. Ron Hubbard wrote “Dianetics” and founded the Church of Scientology. Does that make him divine as well? What makes him any different than Joseph Smith? They both claim to be visited by someone who gave them instructions to follow. I’m not going to change your mind about any of this so this conversation is rather moot. If you’re told not to question something, but follow it blindly and trust your feelings (which the LDS do), then you are not using the intellect and wisdom that God gave you to evaluate things objectively to discover the truth. You are nothing more than a programmed drone.
How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus is your Savior? If an atheist demands you prove it academically, how do you respond? You might even entertain an academic argument, but in the end you KNOW what you know. This is how testimony of God works. To you and me, our belief in God and Christ are facts because God has provided us each the evidence of this truth, personally. We cannot transmit that proof to others because that's not how spiritual knowledge works.
The same principles can be applied to knowledge of the truth of the Book of Mormon, or any other source of higher truth. I don't have to give you evidence when God is perfectly capable and willing to give you that evidence Himself, if you ask for it in sincerity.
The only question you need to answer within yourself is whether you are a truth-seeker. If you're not, God won't force you into it. If you are... well, there is so much more available.
My belief is anything but blind. I have been to the dark side and back. I know this stuff because I have lived it in vivid technicolor. I understand the Gospel of Christ because I have been cleansed by the blood of the Son. I have been remolded and transformed by the Savior into a different person. Does blind faith and false belief have this power? Can the source of such power be false or evil?
I'll let you in on a little secret. /r/IAmVerySmart. Best I can measure it, my IQ's 138, which is above the 98th percentile, and I have a Mensa card to prove it. I'm a software developer by trade and am accustomed to building systems which require intricate and complex abstract thought. I have thought this stuff through very deeply, because I have that capacity.
And as grateful as I am for my intellectual gifts, it wasn't until I started listening to spiritual guidance - what you dismiss as "feelings" - that I began making any progress in my relationship with Christ. Oh, demand intellectual rigor all you like. Seek it out if that's what interests you. But in the end it won't avail you anything if you don't listen to that small, quiet voice of the Holy Spirit.
I hope this helps you understand how I KNOW that the Book of Mormon is true and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's true and living church. I've lived it, I've analyzed it, I've sought and searched, and most importantly, God told me. You will not shake me; only God could do that.
We don't, because God directed us to stop. But you need to dig in to your Bible a bit more; the great patriarchs were all polygamous. Did this make Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, among many other holy men, evil?
The pertinent part comes from an address by President Woodruff:
"The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for … any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people...
… I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me."
In other words, President Woodruff was quite willing to obey the Lord's prior commandments and keep the practice going in defiance of the government's actions. The Lord showed him that the consequences of this course for His church would be calamitous, and it was therefore within God's wisdom to discontinue the practice. We obeyed.
This is why a living prophet of God is required on the Earth. The Gospel of Christ does not change, but its application must be continually adapted to a changing world. A primary role of a living prophet is to guide that adaptation.
The Kimballs and the Clintons are tied to trafficking in DR. Those orphans that Laura Silsby had? Headed to DREAM Center sponsored by the Mormon family, the Kimballs. BEFORE THAT, they were killing time at a place rented to them by a catholic priest who would watch over them until their new place was built.
The Pace Memorandum shows the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused IN CHURCH FACILITIES. Dozens of children across multiple states spoke to the same thing.
I just read the Pace memorandum. It shows no such thing.
He was raising an alarm bell that the Deep State stuff we know about - MK Ultra, RSA, etc. had infiltrated the Church. He attempted to quantify it, buy by no means did he say anything approaching "the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused." You're blatantly misrepresenting the document.
We have our share of scumbags, and I'm certain we've been infiltrated to some degree by Satanists, just as has every other major organization in the world. But we have no cultural tolerance for such bad actors and root them out as quickly as possible once discovered.
You moved the goal posts from 'does not say anything like that" to "was not a state wide cover up" which could only have happened after the memorandum was written.
The state of Utah conducted a 30-month investigation.
Maybe do some fact checking. 60 kids report the same type of child abuse across multiple states and the state of Utah investigated for 30 months and found nothing. found nothing.
I can't speak to that. Corruption is everywhere, and we know these monsters cover for each other. But you're using that to condemn an entire population.
It's analogous to saying that America IS the Great Satan because we've been infiltrated by the Cabal. Is it fair? Or is it hyperbole and overgeneralization to the point of insult?
you're using that to condemn an entire population.
I'm not. I'm stating that it is clear the church has been infiltrated for a long time.
If you want to wax intellectual on culpability well... is a Catholic supporting pedophilia by paying an organization that is industrial scale child rape?
"I just read the Pace memorandum. It shows no such thing."
Read it again.
Top officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are investigating reports from members that, as children, they witnessed human sacrifices and suffered ''satanic abuse'' at the hands of renegade Mormon-affiliated cliques.
Glenn L. Pace, a member of the church`s three-man presiding bishopric, reported in a memorandum dated July 19, 1990, and made public last week that an internal church investigation detailed 60 cases in which Mormons described undergoing ritualized abuse in Utah, Idaho, California, Mexico and other locations.
Basically, you're wrong. Also, the additional documents referenced are the what the cover up is trying to protect.
High level Mormons are Luciferian, of course the actual Christians who fall for the nicer aspects of Mormonism don't do the research into the real history of how the cult was created. Their prophet was an evil piece of shit who compulsively lied, cheated, and stealed. A cult like that obviously attracts psychopaths hungry for power.
Any Mormon whose gone through the Temple is defacto Luciferian. They just don't know it, nor are taught that the concept of being a God is defacto Luciferianism. The most blind and naive group one will ever meet.
They are not allowed to even read their own history, and if they do, it MUST be from ONLY church approved sources.
What an awful thing to say. Have you listened to one of their conferences? They’re all about serving one another and inspiring to do good. Nothing could be further from the truth than your accusation.
I know many of them and they’re the kindest, warmest people I know. They serve in demanding calling without compensation and they spend time trying to help others.
This is true, most people don't realize that Mormonism is setup like a masonic sect, the higher up you go, the more "theology" you get revealed to you.
The very fact that Mormonism added to the KJB when that is explicitly warned against in Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
I'm not a biblical scholar but when "The Book of Revelation" was written the Bible hadn't been compiled into a single book and The Bible has had books added to and subtracted from ' The Apocryphal Texts" as well so the Bible has been altered plenty of times!
It has and each of those decisions should be scrutinized. Some books were omitted in KJB, were any of them significant? It matters even if it is impossible to ever know the exact intent of God for holy scripture. Even the words chosen from the original Greek should be scrutinized, if for no other reason than to learn about how a translation can shape an understanding.
Revelation 22:18 refers to modifications to Revelation. This is proven by the fact that John wrote more of the Bible AFTER he wrote Revelation, and also by the fact that the Bible didn't exist when Revelation was written as it was compiled many years later.
Now that this misconception is cleared up, I challenge you to point to where God has ever said He's done speaking to His children.
After John wrote revelation, an angel would appear to another person at a much later date and cause him to add to a book that was itself a politically motivated form of the scripture (King Henry VIII wanted his divorce)?
Not only is the book of Mormon added to Revelation, it is added to Protestantism itself, and the whims of John Henry Smith and King Henry VIII.
As KJB says, by their fruits you shall no them. Well, people reject polygamy but the founder of Mormonism took wives. Now compare his life to that of John the prophet of Revelation, who witnessed the crucifixion even as the others fled.
Divinely revealed text is not a simply a matter of God talking, it is the living word, it is part of God himself. The consequences of getting this wrong are too great to shrug of the strangeness of John Henry Smith's account of his private revelation or his subsequent life of polygamy which is no longer practiced by most of Mormonism.
The expression of marriage is paramount to the identity of Christianity, this is not a secondary issue. Either John Henry Smith's life is exemplary or Mormonism is false, and the revelation of Christ, as the bride groom, informs us that the age of the patriarchs, and the permission for multiple wives has ended, as also expressed by Christ himself to the divorce happy Pharisees in Mark 10:2-8:
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” “What did Moses command you?” he replied. They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.” “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’
Two become one. The expression of marriage is paramount to the Christian identity and manifestly different in the life of the prophet of Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon is not added to Protestantism; we reject Protestantism entirely. A core claim of ours is that Christianity had lost its way through apostasy, in spite of the well-meaning efforts of reformers such as Luther and Calvin, and that a wholesale restoration was necessary.
Likewise, parts of the Bible had been lost through corruption and with them key parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, new revelation was required to restore these truths in preparation for the End Times. This is why God inspired the creation of the Book of Mormon - a project which started around 600 BC, by the way.
The great patriarchs were all polygamists. Were they not holy men? Did they not practice it before the advent of the Law of Moses? Therefore, the idea of polygamy under God's direction is not in and of itself evil. We no longer practice it because God directed us to stop.
Frankly, I don't fully understand the reasons behind polygamy, other than what the Lord Himself told Jacob in the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2):
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
So I don't pretend to understand the apparent contradiction. But it's alright, I know that Jesus is my Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him. All other understanding will come in time. But He does say that He will command polygamy from time to time if it is His purpose to "raise up seed." This explains why He authorized it for the patriarchs, and I can only likewise assume that it was the Lord's will to build up the early Church quickly in order to advance His purposes.
My question is, my misnomer aside, why, centuries after Christ, centuries of a monogamous marriage why reintroduce the time of the patriarchs?
This is a matter of eternal salvation. And marriage is intrinsic to the Christian (read post-patriarchal) identity. If the founder of Mormonism got polygamy wrong, that is not inconsequential. Is that not fair? Marriage expresses the absolute truth of God's desire for his creature, as Christ is the bride groom to his church.
Anyways, I don't mean any rudeness. I wrote my response very late and I apologize if I am coming across as rude to you personally.
I will review my Mormon history so I can speak more accurately on the matter.
Well, like I said I don't understand polygamy fully. I think I would personally have a very hard time living it. But when God commands, you obey.
The best explanation I can offer is the one above in Jacob 2:30. Other more erudite members may be able to do better.
If you read the contemporary histories, you find that Joseph himself had a terrible time accepting the commandment. He did NOT like the idea. He reports that he had to be commanded four separate times over several years. In the end, he records, the Lord finally sent an angel with an ultimatum - accept the commandment or the angel was commanded to slay him.
A test of faith? Abraham was commanded to kill his son. A means to "raise seed" in preparation for the Lord's kingdom? The House of Israel's influence and promises spread across the globe and have reverberated throughout history. I don't know the purpose of the commandment. But I reiterate that I know Jesus is my Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him. That faith in the Savior is my guide star and demonstrates to me that the Church cannot be evil, for no evil thing leads to Christ. All other understanding will come in time.
I guess my only point is that God's ways are higher than our ways, and sometimes we're expected to obey without understanding.
Bill Schnoebelen has a lot of lectures about his time in the Mormon church. He describes it as being a Masonic Luciferian organization. Take it with a grain of salt though.
They play word games to obscure the fact that they don't believe Jesus is God, but they don't believe Jesus is God.
They also trick you by plastering pics of Jesus all over their marketing materials...but thats just so they can try to recruit ignorant Christians.
There's room for SOME disagreements on details among Christians....but to be considered a Christian, shouldn't you have to at least believe Jesus is God?
Your following false teachings friend, I would suggest converting to Christianity & repenting. Straight from Christ himself: "For I am God, and there is no other." Isa 43:10-11 "Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me." So we should understand God is not making other gods with a small g. Anyone who comes along and says you too will be as god is saying exactly what the Devil said to Eve. May God bless you friend & shine his light on you. Godspeed on your journey.
Thanks, but I'm already a Christian. Jesus is my Savior and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him.
Your concern is appreciated but unnecessary. I enjoy a daily walk with Christ.
I'll pose a counterpoint to you: What exactly is the Bible talking about when it speaks of inheriting the Kingdom of God? We happen to take that promise literally. How could this happen if not for the possibility to choose a path that leads us to becoming like our Father?
Fair enough. I will leave you with a single passage from the Holy Bible, this again is Lord Christ Jesus's speaking. And what he is speaking of is false Messiahs, friend ask yourself one question could there be more Jesus?...
Mark 13:6
"Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many."
Jesus is the Son of God and God. Jesus was NOT created, as the Mormons believe. He always was, same as the Father and Holy Spirit....In fact, Jesus --as taught in the KJV-- created the world.
Straight from Jesus himself: "For I am God, and there is no other." Isa 43:10-11 "Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me." So we should understand God is not making other gods with a small g. Anyone who comes along and says you too will be as god is saying exactly what the Devil said to Eve.
And yet all you Christians have different interpretations of the same Jesus from the same bible. So many different Gods from one book. How do you know which one is right?//////
I didn't say they don't "believe in Jesus". I said they don't believe He's God.
And it matters WAY more than your too-casual "you just believe different things about Jesus". When the "different" is the Mormon doesn't believe Jesus is God and the Christian--pretty much by definition--believes Jesus IS God? You worship a different God than Christians do.
TWO weasel-worded dishonest statements, calculated to mislead. Again, thanks for the demonstration.
The mormon believes Jesus is the son of God, acting as the God of this world on his behalf. They believe in three Gods. Father, son, holy ghost. So I guess different, but they believe in the same bible, the same Jesus in the bible. They just interpret him differently than most christian religions. But honestly, it seems to me that all Christian religions have their own version of this Jesus from the same bible anyway. That is all I'm saying.
And in response to your assumption that I believe in a different God than Christians. I don't believe in Gods.
You are claiming now to NOT be a Mormon, I'll take you at your word....but you seem to have struck upon some of their favorite misdirections in hiding their actual beliefs about Jesus from potential recruits....
Look, "they" believe Jesus was CREATED. By God. They believe that Satan is Jesus' BROTHER.
That would make Satan "God" too, wouldn't it? No definition of God that I've ever seen defines Him as a CREATED being. If Jesus is created, who is He in relation to His "Creator"? A "created" God is --conceptually-- a contradiction in terms.
Okay... seems like you're using word play now. No, I'm not a mormon. Mormon beliefs are a bit ridiculous IMO, but I feel that way about all versions of God I have studied.
Mormon's believe Jesus and you and every other human is a son or daughter of God. But Jesus was the only "perfect" child, given the powers of God on earth. Mormons believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. That God gave him power to act as his proxy and created the earth as he was commanded by God to do so and God gave him dominion over it. They believe God sent him to earth (New Testament) to die for the sins of mankind. Mormons believe satan was also a son of God that was cast out. They view him more as a God of hell, who has no power over God. In reference to "created" yeah, they believe Jesus and all other sons daughters were created by God.
Probably what makes so many Christians so mad about the way mormons view God, Jesus, whatever, is they believe good humans can some day progress to the status of a God and do exactly the same thing God did. They think it is all a cycle.
You may have large differences in what you believe about Jesus, but that's the same with all Christian religions IMO. It is the same bible you read. The same Jesus in it. You just all interpret him different. So claiming mormons don't believe in Jesus, when it Jesus is literally a part of every belief system they have, and the their only way to God, is just word play.
What we believe about Jesus is THE determinant factor ....we believe He is GOD. You keep saying that Mormons "believe in Jesus", as if thats akin to believing He is God. Its also "How to trick Christians into believing Mormons are also Christians 101".....those slick lies are TAUGHT to Mormons as recruiting agitprop to use against unsophisticated Christians.
You use way too much of that agitprop...I've changed my mind again....this "I'm not a Mormon myself, but I can tell that they're the same as any Christian denomination" routine is more obvious than you imagine.
You imagine you know me or my history. You fool yourself into such thinking. I just call bullshit when I see it. You christians, mormons, whatever, love to divide. I am an atheist who cares not what you or others believe. I just hate division and that is what all of you seem to do. US vs. THEM. It accomplishes nothing, but division. Nice try though.
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15894090? ago
They are luciferian.
Mormons they aren’t. Please don’t spead misinformation. Mormons are very loving and peaceful.
The Romneys will rot in hell.
15895746? ago
Mormons are a combination of Free Masonry and Judaism
15903551? ago
Yes.
15896550? ago
No, we're a restoration of the church that Jesus Christ set up during His ministry. It was necessary to restore that church because humanity had corrupted Christianity to such an extent.
If Freemasonry stole some symbols from the primitive church, it's logical that such symbols would be restored to their rightful place in Christ's restored church.
15901164? ago
I would have more respect for the LDS if only they would stop lying to people and themselves that they are the “restored church of Jesus Christ.” The whole thing is a facade to trick people into joining the church and then little by little indoctrinate them into something that is nothing near true Christianity. Joseph Smith was a known charlatan who on numerous occasions would tell stories about the supposed early Israelites after the evening meal as entertainment for his family. Even a church bishop admitted that the Book of Mormon was a false document after researching it, but placed his faith in the Doctrine and Covenants because he didn’t want to admit Mormonism is a made up religion just as Scientology is.
15903114? ago
Well to say otherwise would be the lie, because that's what we believe. Just because it runs counter to your beliefs doesn't make it a lie.
The rest of your comment is not true. Except maybe the bishop part, I don't know about that. There are tens of thousands of bishops and more former bishops. Wouldn't surprise me if you could find one who found issue with the Book of Mormon. But the Book of Mormon continues to withstand academic scrutiny, so I suspect this individual's viewpoints could be readily addressed.
15905647? ago
I’m trying to find the book he wrote. It was back in the late 1800’s. There hasn’t been any third-party academic scrutiny that I’m aware of that supports the BoM. Only biased research coming from within the LDS Church itself.
15905956? ago
Why is such research invalid? If it's academically rigorous it's every bit as valid as quality research originating outside the Church. Would you expect LDS academics to simply sit back and let the world prove their case for them? Just because it contradicts your viewpoint doesn't make it biased.
Here's a good place to start if one wanted to dig into LDS-affiliated academic efforts regarding the Book of Mormon: https://www.fairmormon.org/evidences/Category:Book_of_Mormon
All that said, the veracity of the Book of Mormon is best evaluated by reading it with a sincere heart then asking God if it's true. Once you have that witness from God, all the academic arguments are reduced to mere curiosities. I have received that witness.
The truth of the Book of Mormon proves the divinity of Joseph Smith's calling as a modern prophet.
The divinity of Joseph's calling proves the authenticity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Many people do not want to go down that road, so they try to discredit the Book of Mormon any way they can, including with intellectually disingenuous arguments. It's only wise to counter such efforts.
15907902? ago
I said it is biased. There is a vested interest in proving the BoM to be true, so any research done by the LDS is skewed towards that end rather than being objective. If all academic arguments are reduced to curiosities, then why bother doing anything to prove the Book of Mormon at all? Your argument is circular. When confronted with facts it’s common to discount it and cling to faith because faith, by its very nature, cannot be proven. So anything can be believed. Belief doesn’t make it fact. The Book of Mormon does not prove Joseph Smith’s divinity. L. Ron Hubbard wrote “Dianetics” and founded the Church of Scientology. Does that make him divine as well? What makes him any different than Joseph Smith? They both claim to be visited by someone who gave them instructions to follow. I’m not going to change your mind about any of this so this conversation is rather moot. If you’re told not to question something, but follow it blindly and trust your feelings (which the LDS do), then you are not using the intellect and wisdom that God gave you to evaluate things objectively to discover the truth. You are nothing more than a programmed drone.
15909065? ago
How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus is your Savior? If an atheist demands you prove it academically, how do you respond? You might even entertain an academic argument, but in the end you KNOW what you know. This is how testimony of God works. To you and me, our belief in God and Christ are facts because God has provided us each the evidence of this truth, personally. We cannot transmit that proof to others because that's not how spiritual knowledge works.
The same principles can be applied to knowledge of the truth of the Book of Mormon, or any other source of higher truth. I don't have to give you evidence when God is perfectly capable and willing to give you that evidence Himself, if you ask for it in sincerity.
The only question you need to answer within yourself is whether you are a truth-seeker. If you're not, God won't force you into it. If you are... well, there is so much more available.
My belief is anything but blind. I have been to the dark side and back. I know this stuff because I have lived it in vivid technicolor. I understand the Gospel of Christ because I have been cleansed by the blood of the Son. I have been remolded and transformed by the Savior into a different person. Does blind faith and false belief have this power? Can the source of such power be false or evil?
I'll let you in on a little secret. /r/IAmVerySmart. Best I can measure it, my IQ's 138, which is above the 98th percentile, and I have a Mensa card to prove it. I'm a software developer by trade and am accustomed to building systems which require intricate and complex abstract thought. I have thought this stuff through very deeply, because I have that capacity.
And as grateful as I am for my intellectual gifts, it wasn't until I started listening to spiritual guidance - what you dismiss as "feelings" - that I began making any progress in my relationship with Christ. Oh, demand intellectual rigor all you like. Seek it out if that's what interests you. But in the end it won't avail you anything if you don't listen to that small, quiet voice of the Holy Spirit.
I hope this helps you understand how I KNOW that the Book of Mormon is true and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's true and living church. I've lived it, I've analyzed it, I've sought and searched, and most importantly, God told me. You will not shake me; only God could do that.
15894946? ago
Mormons believe in polygamy. Fuck your Mormon love and peace!
15896518? ago
We don't, because God directed us to stop. But you need to dig in to your Bible a bit more; the great patriarchs were all polygamous. Did this make Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, among many other holy men, evil?
15898221? ago
Yeah, God directed you to stop right after the government made it illegal. Kek.
15898279? ago
Yeah, pretty much. Here's the official Church declaration on the topic: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng
The pertinent part comes from an address by President Woodruff:
In other words, President Woodruff was quite willing to obey the Lord's prior commandments and keep the practice going in defiance of the government's actions. The Lord showed him that the consequences of this course for His church would be calamitous, and it was therefore within God's wisdom to discontinue the practice. We obeyed.
This is why a living prophet of God is required on the Earth. The Gospel of Christ does not change, but its application must be continually adapted to a changing world. A primary role of a living prophet is to guide that adaptation.
15895485? ago
Dude that's so old it isn't even funny. Mormon's are all about the USA and family. I'm not a Mormon, but dated one years ago. Cool people.
Do you play with snakes? Because some Christians do. Educate yourself.
15894854? ago
PLEASE: Read about the Pace Memorandum
The Kimballs and the Clintons are tied to trafficking in DR. Those orphans that Laura Silsby had? Headed to DREAM Center sponsored by the Mormon family, the Kimballs. BEFORE THAT, they were killing time at a place rented to them by a catholic priest who would watch over them until their new place was built.
The Pace Memorandum shows the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused IN CHURCH FACILITIES. Dozens of children across multiple states spoke to the same thing.
15897986? ago
I just read the Pace memorandum. It shows no such thing.
He was raising an alarm bell that the Deep State stuff we know about - MK Ultra, RSA, etc. had infiltrated the Church. He attempted to quantify it, buy by no means did he say anything approaching "the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused." You're blatantly misrepresenting the document.
We have our share of scumbags, and I'm certain we've been infiltrated to some degree by Satanists, just as has every other major organization in the world. But we have no cultural tolerance for such bad actors and root them out as quickly as possible once discovered.
15905379? ago
What kind of fucking loser are you?
http://magaimg.net/img/6yrv.png
Re-read the edit and have a look at this TEXT FROM THE PACE MEMO THAT YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE READ.
15906021? ago
The excerpt above says nothing approaching "the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused."
I am the best kind of loser: One who proves my case without resorting to insults.
15906320? ago
Switched the goal posts, you did.
How would a cover up of the Pace Memorandum have been initiated while it was being written?
15906652? ago
I did not move the goal posts. I've quoted you throughout: "the entire state of Utah was covering up children being ritually abused"
You have yet to show where the Pace memorandum suggests what you state. Therefore, you are misrepresenting the content.
Now YOU'RE moving the goalposts by switching to the idea of a cover-up. Sorry, I'm tired of playing this game with you.
15916828? ago
You moved the goal posts from 'does not say anything like that" to "was not a state wide cover up" which could only have happened after the memorandum was written.
Maybe do some fact checking. 60 kids report the same type of child abuse across multiple states and the state of Utah investigated for 30 months and found nothing. found nothing.
15922033? ago
I can't speak to that. Corruption is everywhere, and we know these monsters cover for each other. But you're using that to condemn an entire population.
It's analogous to saying that America IS the Great Satan because we've been infiltrated by the Cabal. Is it fair? Or is it hyperbole and overgeneralization to the point of insult?
15925411? ago
I'm not. I'm stating that it is clear the church has been infiltrated for a long time.
If you want to wax intellectual on culpability well... is a Catholic supporting pedophilia by paying an organization that is industrial scale child rape?
15927217? ago
The difference is that the Catholic Church has developed a culture that tolerates bad actors. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has not.
15905206? ago
Read it again.
Basically, you're wrong. Also, the additional documents referenced are the what the cover up is trying to protect.
15895312? ago
^This guy knows.
15897990? ago
No, he doesn't. He misrepresented what the memorandum said. Source: I just read it.
15894175? ago
High level Mormons are Luciferian, of course the actual Christians who fall for the nicer aspects of Mormonism don't do the research into the real history of how the cult was created. Their prophet was an evil piece of shit who compulsively lied, cheated, and stealed. A cult like that obviously attracts psychopaths hungry for power.
15917298? ago
Any Mormon whose gone through the Temple is defacto Luciferian. They just don't know it, nor are taught that the concept of being a God is defacto Luciferianism. The most blind and naive group one will ever meet.
They are not allowed to even read their own history, and if they do, it MUST be from ONLY church approved sources.
15897875? ago
What an awful thing to say. Have you listened to one of their conferences? They’re all about serving one another and inspiring to do good. Nothing could be further from the truth than your accusation.
I know many of them and they’re the kindest, warmest people I know. They serve in demanding calling without compensation and they spend time trying to help others.
“By their fruits shall ya know them.”
15897955? ago
Thank you for speaking up, Anon.
We have our share of scumbags. But most of us really do try to be disciples of Christ.
15895185? ago
This is true, most people don't realize that Mormonism is setup like a masonic sect, the higher up you go, the more "theology" you get revealed to you.
The very fact that Mormonism added to the KJB when that is explicitly warned against in Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
Scripture is closed. Mormonism added to it.
15900002? ago
I'm not a biblical scholar but when "The Book of Revelation" was written the Bible hadn't been compiled into a single book and The Bible has had books added to and subtracted from ' The Apocryphal Texts" as well so the Bible has been altered plenty of times!
15900277? ago
It has and each of those decisions should be scrutinized. Some books were omitted in KJB, were any of them significant? It matters even if it is impossible to ever know the exact intent of God for holy scripture. Even the words chosen from the original Greek should be scrutinized, if for no other reason than to learn about how a translation can shape an understanding.
15900324? ago
Agreed! The only thing I was pointing out was that the Book of Revelation was a separate book when the oft quoted scripture was written!
15896445? ago
Revelation 22:18 refers to modifications to Revelation. This is proven by the fact that John wrote more of the Bible AFTER he wrote Revelation, and also by the fact that the Bible didn't exist when Revelation was written as it was compiled many years later.
Now that this misconception is cleared up, I challenge you to point to where God has ever said He's done speaking to His children.
15898053? ago
Reread what you just wrote.
After John wrote revelation, an angel would appear to another person at a much later date and cause him to add to a book that was itself a politically motivated form of the scripture (King Henry VIII wanted his divorce)?
Not only is the book of Mormon added to Revelation, it is added to Protestantism itself, and the whims of John Henry Smith and King Henry VIII.
As KJB says, by their fruits you shall no them. Well, people reject polygamy but the founder of Mormonism took wives. Now compare his life to that of John the prophet of Revelation, who witnessed the crucifixion even as the others fled.
Divinely revealed text is not a simply a matter of God talking, it is the living word, it is part of God himself. The consequences of getting this wrong are too great to shrug of the strangeness of John Henry Smith's account of his private revelation or his subsequent life of polygamy which is no longer practiced by most of Mormonism.
The expression of marriage is paramount to the identity of Christianity, this is not a secondary issue. Either John Henry Smith's life is exemplary or Mormonism is false, and the revelation of Christ, as the bride groom, informs us that the age of the patriarchs, and the permission for multiple wives has ended, as also expressed by Christ himself to the divorce happy Pharisees in Mark 10:2-8:
Two become one. The expression of marriage is paramount to the Christian identity and manifestly different in the life of the prophet of Mormonism.
15898142? ago
The Book of Mormon is not added to Protestantism; we reject Protestantism entirely. A core claim of ours is that Christianity had lost its way through apostasy, in spite of the well-meaning efforts of reformers such as Luther and Calvin, and that a wholesale restoration was necessary.
Likewise, parts of the Bible had been lost through corruption and with them key parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, new revelation was required to restore these truths in preparation for the End Times. This is why God inspired the creation of the Book of Mormon - a project which started around 600 BC, by the way.
The great patriarchs were all polygamists. Were they not holy men? Did they not practice it before the advent of the Law of Moses? Therefore, the idea of polygamy under God's direction is not in and of itself evil. We no longer practice it because God directed us to stop.
Frankly, I don't fully understand the reasons behind polygamy, other than what the Lord Himself told Jacob in the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2):
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
So I don't pretend to understand the apparent contradiction. But it's alright, I know that Jesus is my Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him. All other understanding will come in time. But He does say that He will command polygamy from time to time if it is His purpose to "raise up seed." This explains why He authorized it for the patriarchs, and I can only likewise assume that it was the Lord's will to build up the early Church quickly in order to advance His purposes.
Who is this John Henry Smith of whom you speak?
15900228? ago
True, that should read Joseph Smith. John Henry Smith came later. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Smith
My question is, my misnomer aside, why, centuries after Christ, centuries of a monogamous marriage why reintroduce the time of the patriarchs?
This is a matter of eternal salvation. And marriage is intrinsic to the Christian (read post-patriarchal) identity. If the founder of Mormonism got polygamy wrong, that is not inconsequential. Is that not fair? Marriage expresses the absolute truth of God's desire for his creature, as Christ is the bride groom to his church.
Anyways, I don't mean any rudeness. I wrote my response very late and I apologize if I am coming across as rude to you personally.
I will review my Mormon history so I can speak more accurately on the matter.
Peace
15903412? ago
Well, like I said I don't understand polygamy fully. I think I would personally have a very hard time living it. But when God commands, you obey.
The best explanation I can offer is the one above in Jacob 2:30. Other more erudite members may be able to do better.
If you read the contemporary histories, you find that Joseph himself had a terrible time accepting the commandment. He did NOT like the idea. He reports that he had to be commanded four separate times over several years. In the end, he records, the Lord finally sent an angel with an ultimatum - accept the commandment or the angel was commanded to slay him.
A test of faith? Abraham was commanded to kill his son. A means to "raise seed" in preparation for the Lord's kingdom? The House of Israel's influence and promises spread across the globe and have reverberated throughout history. I don't know the purpose of the commandment. But I reiterate that I know Jesus is my Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him. That faith in the Savior is my guide star and demonstrates to me that the Church cannot be evil, for no evil thing leads to Christ. All other understanding will come in time.
I guess my only point is that God's ways are higher than our ways, and sometimes we're expected to obey without understanding.
No rudeness was perceived. God bless!
15895461? ago
Bill Schnoebelen has a lot of lectures about his time in the Mormon church. He describes it as being a Masonic Luciferian organization. Take it with a grain of salt though.
15896465? ago
A dumptruck-sized block of salt would be necessary. The whole video is a string of lies and half-truths.
Going to an anti-Mormon for the truth about us is like going to the MSM for the truth about Trump.
15894961? ago
They're NOT actual Christians.
THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD.
They play word games to obscure the fact that they don't believe Jesus is God, but they don't believe Jesus is God. They also trick you by plastering pics of Jesus all over their marketing materials...but thats just so they can try to recruit ignorant Christians.
There's room for SOME disagreements on details among Christians....but to be considered a Christian, shouldn't you have to at least believe Jesus is God?
15895528? ago
They also are tought they too can become gods themselves.
15898888? ago
Yes, and be gods of their very own planets in the afterlife.
15896385? ago
Sure. There's got to be some purpose to this life. How about seeing if God's children can actually grow up to be like Him?
The choices you make demonstrate whether you actually want that.
15906161? ago
Your following false teachings friend, I would suggest converting to Christianity & repenting. Straight from Christ himself: "For I am God, and there is no other." Isa 43:10-11 "Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me." So we should understand God is not making other gods with a small g. Anyone who comes along and says you too will be as god is saying exactly what the Devil said to Eve. May God bless you friend & shine his light on you. Godspeed on your journey.
15906390? ago
Thanks, but I'm already a Christian. Jesus is my Savior and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints led me to Him.
Your concern is appreciated but unnecessary. I enjoy a daily walk with Christ.
I'll pose a counterpoint to you: What exactly is the Bible talking about when it speaks of inheriting the Kingdom of God? We happen to take that promise literally. How could this happen if not for the possibility to choose a path that leads us to becoming like our Father?
15909569? ago
Fair enough. I will leave you with a single passage from the Holy Bible, this again is Lord Christ Jesus's speaking. And what he is speaking of is false Messiahs, friend ask yourself one question could there be more Jesus?...
Mark 13:6 "Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many."
15910232? ago
Indeed. That's why one must go directly to God for confirmation of the truth.
15896637? ago
It’s so funny Mormons are so quick to jump on any other cult.... but so fast to defend their beloved church .
15896750? ago
I don't know what you mean by "jump on any other cult". Of course we defend, it stands to reason. We think it's true.
15895450? ago
Jesus is the son of God, not God.
15900645? ago
Jesus is the Son of God and God. Jesus was NOT created, as the Mormons believe. He always was, same as the Father and Holy Spirit....In fact, Jesus --as taught in the KJV-- created the world.
15898903? ago
Christians believe both. It’s convoluted.
15895045? ago
They do believe in Jesus. You just believe different things about Jesus. All christians play word games. My god your god... blah, blah.
15906219? ago
Straight from Jesus himself: "For I am God, and there is no other." Isa 43:10-11 "Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me." So we should understand God is not making other gods with a small g. Anyone who comes along and says you too will be as god is saying exactly what the Devil said to Eve.
15912770? ago
And yet all you Christians have different interpretations of the same Jesus from the same bible. So many different Gods from one book. How do you know which one is right?//////
15895345? ago
Word game alert. Thanks for the demonstration.
I didn't say they don't "believe in Jesus". I said they don't believe He's God.
And it matters WAY more than your too-casual "you just believe different things about Jesus". When the "different" is the Mormon doesn't believe Jesus is God and the Christian--pretty much by definition--believes Jesus IS God? You worship a different God than Christians do.
TWO weasel-worded dishonest statements, calculated to mislead. Again, thanks for the demonstration.
15896403? ago
True, we worship the Christ as described in the Bible; most Christian denominations worship the Christ as defined by creeds and humanistic philosophy.
There's a reason we're classified as "restorationists."
15895672? ago
The mormon believes Jesus is the son of God, acting as the God of this world on his behalf. They believe in three Gods. Father, son, holy ghost. So I guess different, but they believe in the same bible, the same Jesus in the bible. They just interpret him differently than most christian religions. But honestly, it seems to me that all Christian religions have their own version of this Jesus from the same bible anyway. That is all I'm saying.
And in response to your assumption that I believe in a different God than Christians. I don't believe in Gods.
15900894? ago
You are claiming now to NOT be a Mormon, I'll take you at your word....but you seem to have struck upon some of their favorite misdirections in hiding their actual beliefs about Jesus from potential recruits....
Look, "they" believe Jesus was CREATED. By God. They believe that Satan is Jesus' BROTHER. That would make Satan "God" too, wouldn't it? No definition of God that I've ever seen defines Him as a CREATED being. If Jesus is created, who is He in relation to His "Creator"? A "created" God is --conceptually-- a contradiction in terms.
15903569? ago
Okay... seems like you're using word play now. No, I'm not a mormon. Mormon beliefs are a bit ridiculous IMO, but I feel that way about all versions of God I have studied.
Mormon's believe Jesus and you and every other human is a son or daughter of God. But Jesus was the only "perfect" child, given the powers of God on earth. Mormons believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. That God gave him power to act as his proxy and created the earth as he was commanded by God to do so and God gave him dominion over it. They believe God sent him to earth (New Testament) to die for the sins of mankind. Mormons believe satan was also a son of God that was cast out. They view him more as a God of hell, who has no power over God. In reference to "created" yeah, they believe Jesus and all other sons daughters were created by God.
Probably what makes so many Christians so mad about the way mormons view God, Jesus, whatever, is they believe good humans can some day progress to the status of a God and do exactly the same thing God did. They think it is all a cycle.
You may have large differences in what you believe about Jesus, but that's the same with all Christian religions IMO. It is the same bible you read. The same Jesus in it. You just all interpret him different. So claiming mormons don't believe in Jesus, when it Jesus is literally a part of every belief system they have, and the their only way to God, is just word play.
15903822? ago
You don't understand "word games"
What we believe about Jesus is THE determinant factor ....we believe He is GOD. You keep saying that Mormons "believe in Jesus", as if thats akin to believing He is God. Its also "How to trick Christians into believing Mormons are also Christians 101".....those slick lies are TAUGHT to Mormons as recruiting agitprop to use against unsophisticated Christians.
You use way too much of that agitprop...I've changed my mind again....this "I'm not a Mormon myself, but I can tell that they're the same as any Christian denomination" routine is more obvious than you imagine.
15912816? ago
You imagine you know me or my history. You fool yourself into such thinking. I just call bullshit when I see it. You christians, mormons, whatever, love to divide. I am an atheist who cares not what you or others believe. I just hate division and that is what all of you seem to do. US vs. THEM. It accomplishes nothing, but division. Nice try though.
15913923? ago
Uh-huh. Prolly still mad about the Inquisitions, too.
Of course, the officially atheist governments of the 20th Century managed to slaughter over 100 million ....why don't you go nag them?
15915789? ago
I said nothing of any of those things. Continue with your assumptions about others though. Just shows your close-mindedness.