First of all, Here is the link to yesterday's post, which only shows up in TOP https://voat.co/v/pizzagatewhatever/2030995
This post is an update from events of yesterday, and started as a response to Vindicator in PM, I felt that as long as I'd written it all out might as well just post it for everyone for transparency.
Vindicator was speculating on how the CCP 100 point change had been made. My response starts with that -
@Vindicator - The CCP change was done specifically by KevDude (he and I have discussed this in the past) at the time when he was given the forum to do a "makeover" on - that is when things were cleaned up, sidebar put in, rules voted on. It was about two months in? The community can answer that. More on that below. I don't believe you were active at that moment, but soon after. It might have been after that clean up and consolidation when you were tapped.
In the interests of transparency, I'd like to ask Vindicator regarding your history here-
1.) Why and by whom were you asked to mod? Was it because you knew someone at voat in real life? Or were an active commenter on another subverse and thus known? There is the perception you were brought in as a decision from top down, made a few comments, then were made a mod. Now is your chance to address that perception.
2.) I'd also like to ask you if when you made the sticky regarding the protests, you did that entirely of your own volition, or were you directed or asked to take that position on behalf of voat? I am not asking for the reasons why it would be done for voat, we already have seen those arguments. I am specifically asking if you were asked to take that position or directed to do so. Also, do you have any regrets regarding how that impacted the first protesters and the second protesters? I'd like to clear the air now about this since I came out with a positive message of support for you.
3.) In a PM to me, you said "@DarkMath and @2impendingdoom have been unbanned. Falcon did that on his own after a day or two time-out." However according to 2impendingdoom he is not. They just tried to comment. Could you address this?
Community Thread Results https://voat.co/v/pizzagatewhatever/2030995
FIRST - CCP rule change - To clear up any confusion I caused about what this would be, it would be a RETURN to a rule the subverse started with. 100 comment points are required before new accounts may MAKE SUBMISSIONS or DOWNVOAT. Since new accounts are created at voat without an email requirement, this subverse, called the most shilled place on the internet aside from 4chan, needs this fig leaf of protection.
Unlike the submission rules that at least were show-voted on, KevDude took away the 100 CCP points submission/downvoat requirement without telling anyone or a vote. It was probably just an admin thing in his view, so I am not saying it was done with intent to harm the subverse. However this was a top down decision that the community has wholeheartedly rejected. I asked him about it at another time (keep in mind EVERY TIME I have to deal with him, it ends up with him spewing a volley of racist violent rants at me) and through his insults he managed to convey that having that CCP requirement will keep the subverse off v/all which "hides" the subverse from the rest of voat. What this subverse gains from the 100 point rule far outweighs the negligible benefit of being visible on v/all. This is a must have change.
SECOND - @2impendingdoom The term “spam” must be officially defined and included as one of the posting rules so that we know what we’re being accused of when banned for it and ideally to avoid it in the first place. this is a reasonable request. Definitions form the basis of any logical argument. This is also a must have change.
THIRD - Ownership and Mods. Both VictorSteinerDavion who is long gone and made a public goodbye needs to be removed from ownership as well as KingKongWasWrong. Neither KevDude or Mil Falcon should be owners. This is also a must have change.
a) Vindicator has been suggested as owner and had a good amount of support for the community which wants to see a real change in this situation.
b) Millenial Falcon takes a lot of flak and I can't know what it is like to do the job he does. I can only report that many have called for him to step down. There are also some who support MF. This can be discussed. Personally, I don't think MF finds any joy at the PG subverse, and maybe he just needs a vacation Keep in mind that his name is on the sticky that is normally at the top of the subverse. If he ever goes, does his sticky go too? Or does that belong to the sub.
FOURTH - There have been a few good suggestions from our thread I'd like to highlight here -
a) permanent "How to Spot Shills" placed on sidebar and strong suggestion that newbs take note, plus permanent access to leaked psyop tactics document @The1stLantern. This seems like a no brainer but can be discussed.
b) A couple of people have suggested combining the pizzagate/pedogate subforums, to stop the time waste of determining the line between the two, and to stop losing cross referenced information relevant to both. Wouldn't this also cut down on mod duties, or at least consolidate it? This needs to be discussed by the community.
c) THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE NEW SUGGESTIONS - IT IS AN ANTI-SHILL MEASURE AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE I STRONGLY SUPPORT IT. A new subverse named PizzagateIntroductions will be made, in which new accounts must introduce themselves before they may comment on the main thread to start gaining their 100 points and submission/downvoat privileges. @GoodGodkirk The nature of what the intro is can be debated, but it may prevent some instant shilling.
d) Search Bar reinstated. This doesn't require any explanation.
e) A new rule against false flag baiting was suggested by @darkknight111. This could be discussed.
AngB23 ago
@VeiBleu makes valid points and great questions. There needs to be adjustment made bcuz the shilling has been nuts in the PG thread. I'm sick and tired is seeing REAL researchers writing very detailed info but break one stupid rule, gets deleted and a shill posts a link to some article without any info and it remains up.
I get mods have a life and can't devote all their time here, but seriously, the researchers threads seem to be deleted with in minutes and ironically, the shills threads are left up for days. My initial thought is all of the research moves to Pizzagatewhatever where it seems less controlled if the PG forum can't get a grip to truly help the kids.
VieBleu ago
You are correct, unfortunately. Nothing really acts like a real condem so to speak against an organized shill army. The 100 CCP points is a fig-leaf of protection at best. Nevertheless, a fig-leaf can be better than nothing and it worked well enough in the past that the vast majority of responders want it back.
Vindicator ago
One question I have for everyone regarding reinstating the 100 point requirement. Do you all care more about erecting shitpost barriers than having posts get to the front of v/all? I think that was the reason it was removed. Voaters are among the most easily red-pilled and most likely to spread the word about our findings. You'd have to give up being on v/all.
VieBleu ago
This has been brought up on the first thread already and is brought up in the update. Long story short - people want the CCP back, don't care a bit about /v/all, and think the benefit of it far outweighs the /v/all appearance.
Not only that, do not forget that pizzagaters are reminded constantly about how much they are reviled and despised by other goats, and have been since the begining. The connection has no particular upside , has not red-pilled other voaters (edit: we have never been told so anyway to my knowledge, but are OFTEN told the opposite), who generally condem this subverse precisely because it is a conspiracy subverse Even mods such as wecanhelp have made condescending comments about "how many conspiracy theorists" are on the subverse.
You've seen that the vast majority of commenters have said the CCP needs to be restored, many were upset that it was taken away without notice
Vindicator ago
Fair enough -- just wanted this clearly on the record so that when we go to the O's we can show knowledgeable popular acclaim for the idea. :-)
VieBleu ago
Yes - good to already have addressed this minor objection. Personally i feel it is a bogus argument, used more for obstruction than genuine concern for the subverse. Here's why, and 2 more arguments regarding it.
darkknight111 ago
Maybe some form of prerequiste amount of upvoats in order to upvoat comments? Maybe 25 upvoats.
We also need counter measures to "sock puppets" aka alt accounts run by the same person. Notorious shill AreWeSure has at least 3 known alts which he uses as sock puppets to give himself upvoats, so a minimum cpp to submit is not enough of a defense against guys like him. Antisemite shill DonKeyhote is starting to use alts too.
Proposed countermeasure to the "Sock Puppet" problem: Look at all the alternate accounts of the same person. Ban all but the one with the LOWEST CPP, forcing them to start over in their attempts to bypass anti shill defenses.
darkknight111 ago
Have another object for discussion: Our sub's guidelines regarding alerting the community about possible false flags.
This one's more about clarity. I've got something that I think is most definately real and a shit ton of lives may be in danger. Problem being I need some advice on posting such info in a way that complies with submission guidelines.
The situation in question is suspected to be occuring in St. Louis, MI on the day of the eclipse. All I have on this is a tweet from somebody I suspect (cannot confirm) to be a government insider and personal conjecture based on "flip the chessboard" thinking based on predicting how occultists/satanists think. St. Louis conclusion being based on that city being where the insterect of highest eclipse intensity and duration is.
Vindicator ago
If you can share the link to the tweet, that covers Rule 2. However, this isn't really the kind of thing that satisfies Rule 1. It's more appropriate to v/conspiracy. Even so, you can post it in v/pizzagatewhatever. You can then link to it in any and every posts' comment section. As long as you get in early on a post, most folks will see the comment. If you format it with a larger-typeface headline at the beginning of the comment, it will stand out.
VieBleu ago
I wrote you a PM but could you also post the tweet here? I'd like to see it.
Vindicator ago
I know no one at Voat in real life (at least that I'm aware of :-) ). I was asked to be a Janitor by Millennial_Falcon, because my submissions followed the guidelines, I encouraged other posters in comments and tried to help them understand the submission rules, and because I asked shitposters for evidence. I was made a mod a month or six weeks later by Crensch -- I think at MF's request. The difference between a J and an M is M's can make or remove new J's, and we needed more hands on deck at the time. We were getting hentai spam attacks in the middle of the night. Prior to the migration from Reddit, I had been an infrequent Reddit user. I got more heavily interested when I realized a charity I had supported in the past might be associated with Pizzagate. I have been watching for concrete evidence confirming this ever since; if it appears, I will be redpilling a whole lot of that charity's doners whom I know well.
No. I was asked by wecanhelp about an ad he was putting at the top of the sidebar and as I looked into it I became very concerned about events being manipulated by the disinfo purveryors who had been attacking abortionburger and a number of other good users. This was at the height of the Antifa crap. It was my idea to write the sticky; I took too long -- because I was documenting my specific concerns -- and wecanhelp put something up. I then finished my sticky and posted it.
I don't regret doings so, and given the available information in the time window I had, would do the same under the same circumstances today. I DO support public awareness campaigning and the ability to discuss it, plan it and organize it on v/pizzagate -- and pushed for a rule change to that end. When the O's, MF and wecanhelp made it clear rule changes were not happening, I made a sticky explaining how such posts would be allowed under the existing rules.
One of the most important parts of this job for me is keeping an eye on what the nefarious manipulators are up to and exposing it. I did this when someone was posting as Becki Percy here and on Twitter to discredit her. When abortionburger was witchhunted, intimidated, doxed and threatened. When DarkMath, OrwellKnew, VieBleu, IsThisGameofThrones and a number others were being targeted by ArmySeer with his fake shill-bans. And when Psychanaut became the target of witchhunting and intimidation. It was the silencing of the investigation and media collusion to suppress it that convinced me how real this is (on top of the Podesta emails) and I'll be damned if I will allow that shit here if I can prevent it.
For the record -- I don't think "Voat is compromised" or "mods are shills". I've spent a fair amount of time reading comments, watching how things operate, how people respond in various situations, and I think that is a shill narrative. I have never seen real evidence presented to support it. I don't always agree with how things are administered. I also don't agree with negativity and concern-trolling that effectively discourage folks. That is a huge red flag to me that a person does not have the well-being of this sub or the people we want to help at heart. People who build this place up -- with solid contributions, encouragement for others, creative publicity, willingness to call out fallacious bullshit or whatever -- get my respect.
I thought he had been. I unbanned him this evening when I saw he was still banned.
DarkMath ago
"I was asked to be a Janitor by Millennial_Falcon"
That was what I was afraid of. Millenial_Falcon is in charge. I was praying that you two were on the same level. MF in charge is fine but brings up the obvious question: Who watches the watcher? MF immediately dismissed my Ohio State Fair post about the "accident" there. But if you actually watch the video the woman who "passed out" from the "shock" of the whole thing literally has her hands frozen into position. That's impossible if she's uninjured and just fainted. People who faint go limp. Their hands don't lock up and make them look like a mannequin. Oh wait......... :-)
"a charity I had supported in the past"
The Clinton Foundation? Your story sounds like mine. I wrote a $500 check to the Clinton Foundation after the Haiti Earthquake thinking they wouldn't steal it. Boy was I wrong. Obviously they stole 95-98% of it depending on how you define "stealing".
"saw he was still banned."
Millenial_Falcon unbanned me.
Vindicator ago
No, it was not the Clinton Foundation. I wouldn't touch anything Clinton-associated. Yuck. I'm not going to dox myself by revealing which charity it was. But if the evidence ever does materialize, I will definitely cost them a great deal of donor money.
Vindicator ago
Technically, we are on the same level. Only and O can remove either of us -- we cannot remove each other. That said, he's been here longer than I have, and was modded by kingkongwaswrong, the original owner of v/pizzagate. Also, I respect his ability to spot disinfo and his commitment to keep the subverse on topic. It's harder to do that you think. Removing posts is hard to do. The interests of the folks here are as broad as v/conspiracy and people want to share and talk about things appropriate to that sub, here. It creates a constant dilemma about which posts are Rule 1 compliant, and which aren't. That dilemma is renewed whenever there is a new development in the Clinton investigation, such as Seth Rich, the Awans, whether Sessions is in or out, etc. Many of these leads are hypothetically related but not directly related. But it's a continuum -- almost ANYTHING can be interpreted to by hypothetically related. I lean toward flairing disinfo and letting voats decide the gray areas. Falcon leans the other way. We've both been told by ProtectVoat we can't leave posts up and ask for edits, unless we do it with all of them. That means a great number of posts are removed on technicalities. I usually leave a detailed comment to explain the technicality and ask for a repost. MF doesn't have time to do that with the giant morning pile.
I actually think it's best to NOT have total agreement on that subject among mods, so they can check-and-balance each other. He catches stuff I miss. I see connections he doesn't.
DarkMath ago
"I respect his ability to spot disinfo"
Evidence of organ harvesting and Smith-Mundt Specials isn't disinfo. It's the core of the entire story. Millenial_Falcon is a shill. There's no way around it. He's killing legitimate evidence. Worse is he won't listen to reason. After he deleted my post: https://voat.co/v/pizzagatewhatever/2034884 he wouldn't watch the video clearly showing the girl had frozen fingers because she's a mannequin. It's as clear as day.
MF is Deep State damage control. It's as simple as that.
Vindicator ago
DarkMath, I watched the video at MF's request. I did not feel it was high enough resolution to be able to tell what was going on.
DarkMath ago
You need to put the video on the slowest replay setting. At that speed the frozen hand position is visible for several seconds and impossible to miss.
Vindicator ago
I put it in the highest resolution and the slowest setting. I also watched the next video which showed a red part appearing out of nowhere between two frames and what could have been a guy leaping from one car to the next. Both videos lacked resolution and context. At least the ones I saw. I agree with MF's skepticism. And is assessment that it's too hypothetical for v/pizzagate. It's definitely v/pizzagatewhatever or v/conspiracy worthy though, as well as being interesting.
DarkMath ago
"the slowest setting"
I'm seeing at least 10 unique frames all showing the frozen hand position. By unique I mean the frame is different than the previous frame. I will get a better screen capture tool so I can produce those 10.
But that's not the issue really. The requirement for posts is they have to be related to Pizzagate not whether the post is "true". We gather evidence and then asses it for accuracy. Obviously nothing would get posted if it had to be proven "true" before it was posted on /v/pizzagate. In fact I'm a little worried you even said that.
"could have been a guy leaping from one car to the next."
I specifically referenced the example of a frozen hand position being clearly visible. I didn't mention the guy jumping from car to car because it's too blurry to mean anything. You're trying to dismiss the frozen hands with the blurriness of a guy jumping from one car to another. That's a little bit of a Straw Man. And again I'm surprised you'd bring that guy up because I didn't mention him in my post because I agree it's too blurry to make a call one way or the other.
So what's up Vindicator. What am I missing?
VieBleu ago
Thanks a lot Vindicator for taking the hot seat and answering questions. Appreciated. I think having an owner the subverse has gotten to know and who supports transparency would be a valuable step forward for v/pizzagate.
Vindicator ago
VictorSteinerDavion supports transparency and reads posts here fairly regularly. It's not his major interest, though. As I said to you before, I think it would be better to have an accountable, engaged O who has their finger on the pulse of the subverse. I am on the fence about whether I want to take that responsibility on, though. That's whole new level of expectations (and blame) I'm not sure I want. The place can be a shitshow at times! :-)
VieBleu ago
VSD is reasonably transparent, at least you can have a conversation with him (I did) but KKWW has no stake here. Understandable if you are not sure and need to think about it. At least you know it could be an option now on this side of the tracks.
2impendingdoom ago
https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1535178
I actually posted the shill handbook here and on v/pizzagate back on Jan 3, M_F let it stay, even though I acknowledged that it wasn't pizzagate related, its all there in the comments.
Vindicator ago
Jan 3 was before the existing subverse submission rules were put into effect, if I recall correctly.
I would argue shills are definitely pizzagate related -- they're what got the subverse banned from Reddit and almost shut down on Voat. They are a key part of pizzagate denial and censorship.
2impendingdoom ago
That was pretty much my reason for posting it in the first place. shills at pizzagate (sigh)
I should re-read that handbook....
2impendingdoom ago
I'm still banned.
Vindicator ago
I unbanned you.
2impendingdoom ago
thank you
VieBleu ago
Dark Math is unbanned. I would write a PM to Vindicator, tell her that you are still banned and ask if she can move to get you unbanned based on community response and also that she was told you were unbanned Let me know.
2impendingdoom ago
Okay, will do. thanks for your help in this regard.
VieBleu ago
I have been told this is the thread @DarkMath got banned for. https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/2028377
DarkMath ago
Yep, that's the one. I did finally get it published on /v/pizzagatewhatever:
https://voat.co/v/pizzagatewhatever/2029114
VieBleu ago
According to a statement by Vindicator to me you are not banned anymore - true?
DarkMath ago
Correct. Millenial_Falcon felt guilty about what he did and let me back in.
darkknight111 ago
As an adjuvant to 4a, I had a thread regarding the "Shill Handbook", which was like the Holy Grail for shills and trolls. This got posted around the time of the 1st week of July (incidentally enough the time of that false flag being set up against us).
Which is why I suggest the allowance of multiple stickies. Under such a system, the following would be stickys:
Executive Evidence Summary, grouped organized by nature of various topics (such as all topics regarding organizations, Elsagate, etc) Acts like a "Mega Thread" for newer users to check if their submission is "old news". Note: In serious need of an update.
The Shill Handbook.
To those concerned, The "false flag baiting" suggestion is NOT about suppressing free speech, its about protecting the community from evil intentions. Comes from the week long attack on v/pizzagate by shills designed to frame us for spreading anti semitism and endorsing violence. This rule may or may not have to extend to "false flag baiting" comments.
Aye on the suggestions presented here.
Vindicator ago
@sensitive and I went to great lengths to attempt to find a way to have more than one sticky, but the Voat software platform does not make this possible. I don't know if this will change once the .NET port is complete. That would be a question to post on v/voatdev.
darkknight111 ago
Thanks for the info. Good to know sites inner workings and how it relates to us.
VieBleu ago
Just so you know, I've asked for at least two stickies on the pg front page long long ago - first thing i asked for. i am used to sites with as many stickies as the community wants.
Guess what? CAN'T HAVE THEM. Only one sticky per subverse. The only answer I got was something garbled about it is not technically possible. At Voat of course, where a search bar is a shoot-for-the-moon idea.
(that is why I modified the suggestion for the anti-shill info to be a sidebar item.)