It was pretty easy to jump on the band wagon and become a holocaust denier, because it seemed so obvious. Not to mention them darned Jews, right? But something never sat right with me, something along the lines of if it was so obvious why are deniers a minority.
So I did a bunch of research independent of any forums, because let's face it any one on a forum already has an axe to grind.
In the end I really did have to agree that:
-
Deniers cherrypick. I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of war related documentation there is available and deniers only ever seem to use the few bits that suit their purpose, and then they beat that like a kettle drum.
-
Overwhelming evidence about the gas chambers NOT being gas chambers turned out to not be so overwhelming afterall. Again deniers seem to only use evidence or methodology that suited their objectives.
So either the Jewish conspiracy is so huge and well funded that they are able to perpetuate a hoax of a scale grander than I can even imagine. Or there actually is a lot of truth there. I do remain open to any new information on or approaches to the subject however.
Anyhow, am I the only one?
Tallest_Skil ago
JEWISH CENSORSHIP: BYPASSED
Fucking unacceptable bullshit sockpuppets.
Yeah, facts will do that to you.
About the holocaust.
Not an argument. Appeal to authority. Appeal to majority. Appeal to popularity. Do you know anything about continental drift?
Such as purchasing a 1947 Encyclopedia Britannica to see that it makes absolutely no mention whatsoever of any holocaust, any genocide, and only says “thousands died in Nazi work camps”?
Oh, no, you didn’t do that.
Truth is not a matter of agreement. No one cares what you agreed with.
Doesn’t happen. Fuck off.
So overwhelmed, in fact, that you likely didn’t read any of it. You didn’t read the Bletchley Park Decryptions* which show that there was no genocide planned, ordered, or carried out by any Germans anywhere, much less in the camps, and also shows that only 60,000 died at Auschwitz of typhus and malnutrition. You also didn’t read the post-Cold War German documents captured by the Soviets that were released, which show the same.
No, you’re thinking of jews. Such as when the Shoah Foundation only publicized the interviews that said it happened, and hid all the ones where the jews talk about “wow the beer we could buy was so watery” and “oy vey I had to draw the musical notation lines onto the paper they gave me because they didn’t have special musical paper already made!”
Except, you know, for the forensic evidence that proves they didn’t exist. And the physical impossibility of moving the gas in that fashion. And the physical impossibility of venting the room. And the physical impossibility of burning the bodies before they rotted. And the physical impossibility of burning that many bodies in the timeframe allotted. And the physical impossibility of burning ANY bodies WITHOUT FUEL, THAT ALLIED SPY RAIDS SHOW NEVER EXISTED.
Isn’t it funny how you refuse to substantiate any of your claims here?
YES. THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING. You are saying “HURR DURR I TOO SMART TO BE FOOLED (because i say so) THEREFORE IT NO HAPPEN HURRRRRRRR” and thinking yourself a literal fucking god. You’re a solipsist of the highest degree. “I am the smartest being in the universe and anything which contradicts my experiences is not real. I cannot possibly imagine anything other than this, therefore nothing other than this could ever be real.” Divorce yourself of this thinking before the race war starts or you won’t last a week.
There is no truth to any aspect of the holocaust narrative. “The camps existed and jews were put there” isn’t part of the narrative, because that has nothing to do with “a holocaust.” You know that words have definitions, right? “Holocaust” is a biblical term. Specifically, a Torahic one. Noah offered a holocaust unto the Lord when he got off the boat. Says it right in the Bible. Now what the fuck do you think THAT means, kiddo? Noah killed 6 million of his fellow kikes right then and there? But I thought that there weren’t too many left? Hmm… Maybe it means “A SACRIFICE BY FIRE”, as the jews did with animals millennia ago, and with Christian children today.
So “the holocaust” narrative means “being put into ovens and burned.” But we know that didn’t happen. So the holocaust didn’t happen.
Post something of substance if you’re not a coward or paid shill, so that we can set you straight.
Where’s your substance, dipshit? You posted nothing; you expected us to reply to it? I posted substance; where’s your refutation of it?
Fuck you, jewish shill. You deign to perpetuate my genocide.
So go take another one. The building is right there.
How about you read the 30 handbooks of forensic evidence and get back to us, then? The answer is right there.
How about that. Just like the jews; always nebulous, never settling on anything definite.
Why should we believe you ever changed in the first place?
Bletchley Park was the place in Britain where the transmissions were intercepted/recorded.
Funny how they never show up in the actual transmissions, then, huh?
The truth. People don’t matter, dipshit. There is no reference to “death camps”, “genocide”, or any number of deaths greater than 250,000 for any reason other than wartime maladies in the actual decryptions themselves.
You are INHERENTLY doing this by shilling a lie.
Just like jews. Too bad for you, then.
That’s clear.
YOU’RE STILL FUCKING APPEALING TO AUTHORITY WHEN YOU, PERSONALLY, ARE BEING ASKED?! HOW JEWISH ARE YOU?
… THAT’S WHY YOU’RE BEING ASKED.
The problem is with YOUR PERSONAL COMPREHENSION, not with reality. The reality is that the holocaust did not happen in any form, period.
So… no. There is no “larger perspective”, there is no cherry picking, and you can’t even cite your claim. THE REALITY IS AS FOLLOWS:
That is the reason for “the holocaust.” Period. There is no other reason. It’s an invention. This is the “larger perspective.”
That’s clear.
Why would they?
More like you never denied it in the first place.
This is proven false by the jews’ own admission. This is proven false by the number of jews living in Nazi-occupied Europe. You have absolutely fucking nothing to go on.
Zero of them were, in fact.
“HURRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRR MUH HORSHOFEEREE”
You’re fucking done. You’re clinically insane.
Skyrock ago
People generally go through three phases in understanding history:
(1) the simplified school version, i.e. "The Nazis have put Jews into death camps and gassed them."
(2) the edgelord version that shines light on things that the highly simplified school curriculum didn't touch, but in order to be contrarian rather than to get the whole picture, i.e. "There were also labour camps whose inhabitants died through supply shortages, not industrial murder, and there were even some leisurely camps like Theresienstadt, and the holocaust didn't happen."
(3) the enlightened whole picture, i.e. "Not all camps were death camps, some even were relatively pleasant, and not all Jews dying in camps died through the Holocaust - but yes, the nazis gassed 6 millions."
Most people only reach (1), never question it and view it as an annoying hurdle they need to take for a good grade, without ever developing a real interest into the subject. People who reach stage (2) are like those annoying teenagers who think that they are woke, that they have all figured it out and that the sheeple need to wake up. People who reach stage (3) are like the based, weary and disillusioned dads who have figured out that things aren't easy and obvious as they thought in their edgy teenage years, and that there is a reason why things are the way they are.
Congratulations for reaching Stage 3, stay critical and question everything. There are many other areas of your knowledge where you have never made it past stage 1 or stage 2. I know because everyone does, including me.
benjitsu ago
Is stage 4 when you realize that the 6 million number is far older than WW2 and that there weren't even that many documented jews available to wipe out had they wanted to
Gringojones ago
You have found evidence that supports 6 million?
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Only that the official narrative -- ie. 6 mill give or take -- seems well supported, certainly better supported than the opposing view that's it's only 300K or whatever. If I'm being lied to I have no way of knowing, but that applies to both sides.
benjitsu ago
Can you give a really brief over view of "supported"? The best I have heard is that a Russian general gave the number directly out of his ass
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
At the risk of being skewered r/history has a shit tonne of holocaust readmes that are mostly very readable. The nbrs there pretty much mirror other 'official sources' that I generally found less accessable, so for simplicity's sake just go to reddit.
FWIW r/history doesn't accept any denialism whatsoever; as far as they're concerned the issue is settled well beyond any reasonable doubt. But at least they go to lengths to defend their position. Whether you believe them or not is up to you of course, but that doesn't mean the info there isn't worth reading.
benjitsu ago
To be honest I think the total ban on questioning the narrative is what makes the kooks come out more. To pretend like history isn't written by the winners and is without bias is dangerous, as we are seeing. We have people fighting "nazis" in the street calling themselves antifa when the communist ideals they are espousing killed 20 million under Stalin (more than three times Hitler's jew count if we grant that number). The main point is that it would be easier to find more honest, middle ground if there wasn't a weird lobby about this genocide in particular.
Gringojones ago
Seems well supported.
Do you even know why it had to be 6 million?
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Yeah I've heard the 6 million number thing before. I really don't know what to think of it. If someone wants to claim that it's just more proof that the Holocaust is a hoax then power to them, but I'm no longer prepared to do that.
CheeseboogersGhost ago
This seems jewy. The holohoax is a hoax. Period. Its why it is illegal to investigate it or deny it DUH
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Agreed. Criminalising a dissenting POV is wrong, though apparently not uncommon. This is not the point of my post however.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
Are you talking about the idea of Jews being put into concentration camps?
Or specifically "6 million Jews died from gas chambers"?
There are a lot of claims. The sheer volume of people supposedly gassed and cremated is beyond physics, and the Jewish censuses from before and after WWII don't support such high numbers of deaths.
Definitely many did die, and Jews were specifically targetted (along with many others). But the thing that seems to always get missed is nearly all holocaust deaths were Polish civilians and Soviet POWs, and only half were Jewish. We would expect lots of deaths when a country gets invaded, from many causes. These deaths seem to be lumped together as a specific targeted extermination, though. Forcing Germany to pay reparations would certainly encourage that.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Interestingly your points pretty much echo what I saw when doing research. As well that there's a tendency, probably largely due to movies and such, for people to think of The Holocaust as a single large event with 6 million Jews being marched into the ovens (well not actually but you know what I mean). The reality was much more complex and unclear. Are the Nazis responsible for 6 million dead? Yeah, in some way or another pretty much so.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
The Nazis are responsible for specifically targeting Jews (and others), unquestioned fact. They openly stated this and explained their reasons.
The Soviets are responsible for millions of deaths, too. They specifically targeted their own ethnic minorities (like Ukranians) and Christians.
Slaughtering millions or causing intentional famines to slowly starve the "undesirable elements" is horrible. But why do we only talk about the crime committed primarily against Jews instead of the equally atrocious crime, committed in the same time period, committed primarily by Jews?
These are more questions that aren't even holocaust denial, but that gets you the same label of "antisemitic holocaust denier", this is illegal, put him in jail....
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Pretty much how I see it too.
aileron_ron ago
People should take a trip to Auschwitz and see the prisoner cafeteria, store,theater,opera house, heated pool, library and soccer field. They should see how close the "gas chamber" is the the nazi officers quarters building (down wind) and then watch or read the Auschwitz survivor's admitting to lying. Yes the holocaust was real but not as described.
Tallest_Skil ago
“The holocaust” is a phrase which has a meaning. “Holocaust” is a word with a very specific meaning. No, the holocaust was not real. Germans did the exact same thing as Americans. We didn’t have “a holocaust” of Japanese.
benjitsu ago
Are you talking about internment camps or the bomb?
Tallest_Skil ago
The camps.
benjitsu ago
I wasn't sure because even if you don't assume any malice (which isn't really reasonable) a LOT more people died in the German camps than American ones (and many of the deaths in Germany were more related to the Allies gaining ground and Germany running out of food to feed them.)
aileron_ron ago
https://i.imgur.com/brStbXK.gifv
Simpleusername ago
Quite the contrary. The Germans kept impeccable records and even tattooed their prisoners to keep an accurate catalogue. During the Nuremberg trials, those records were used against the awful Germans. 635,000 jews were interned. 60,000est were "slaughtered" with at least half dying of malnutrition when the efficient German machine was stopped. Prison guards left their post and the timid jew sat starving until rescued by the benevolent white man. Keep doing research...or get a better script. Your shit is weak and wrong.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Yes these are the numbers deniers trot out, but other sources say otherwise. My point is that it's no longer a slam dunk for me. The death camps in Poland is where the bulk of the killing is claimed to have taken place and there is literally tonnes of supporting evidence. Beyond claiming, without proof that I can see, that the Jews and their cronies planted it all how do you discount it?
benjitsu ago
My understanding is that a lot of the output for the German war machine was outsourced to camps in Eastern Europe...I don't see how a work slash deathcamp can operate very effectively.
bb22 ago
“Other sources say otherwise.” Why is there such a difference in the first place? Don’t you think that’s odd? Kind of two completely different stories told by the data, isn’t it?
What’s your alternative theory to explain that, if you think the Holocaust may have been real? Perhaps you think some Nazis survived and forged and inserted fake evidence into the record without detection, instead of the Jews doing it?
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Saying that I don't know what the truth is is NOT the same as saying the Jews are behind it. I mean I previously had been prepared to accept that it was mostly the result of Jew lies and manipulation, but when I saw even a small portion of the amount of supporting evidence it really made me re-think my position. And no I didn't 'see' it, but rather had to go off the word of several experts. Call me a fool if you must but it was compelling enough to make me doubt, that's all.
And no I don't think it's odd that two different 'realities' come from the same data. It's all about interpretation afterall. This is why science is so easy to fake and why independent verification is important. If only it was so simple for history. But 10,000 reasoned historians vs. 1000 deniers who, frankly, have a tendency to be combative and cherry pick is a strong argument though (pulled those nbrs out of my ass, have no idea what they are in reality but my point stands)
bb22 ago
My major is in history. There are more historian holocaust “deniers” than you apparently realize. It’s just not easy to be vocal for obvious reasons of academic censorship. Professors tend to use coded terms and winks and nods. No one who has honestly studied the primary sources can come away confident of 6 million anything.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
This is the sort of thing I tried to find but was unsuccessful AKA dissenting views that don't come across as the rantings of lunatics. I get that it's difficult but if you can provide any of these sources I'd appreciate it. Cheers!
bb22 ago
Look at the people they've taken to court in the UK and Canada. One guy went to Germany and secretly took samples from the buildings and returned to Canada to do tests on it, if I remember correctly, and they took him to court. I think Germany wanted him extradited so they could try him. A couple of searches should turn these guys up and the work they've published.
Everyone has their own angle on it, and focuses on one item or another at the expense of everything else. I don't know of any encyclopedic takes on the subject.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
That guy's (forget the name) analysis is kinda famous and one of the linchpins in denier's toolbox. There's a video on it. Anyhow it seems pretty convincing except that a deeper look at the methodology used calls the results into question. But again we have nothing but 2nd and 3th hand versions of the events to go from so what the actual truth is is any one's guess.
But as you allude it should be child's play to run the tests again and this time 'do it right', but good luck with that because of how hard it it to question the narrative. TBH the more time I spend thinking about the holocaust the more I'm inclined to turn my back on the whole mess.
Tallest_Skil ago
Sorry @Crensch but this dipshit needs to be put in his place, and I don’t seem to have your standard disproof link anymore.
Yeah, facts will do that to you.
About the holocaust.
Not an argument. Appeal to authority. Appeal to majority. Appeal to popularity. Do you know anything about continental drift?
Such as purchasing a 1947 Encyclopedia Britannica to see that it makes absolutely no mention whatsoever of any holocaust, any genocide, and only says “thousands died in Nazi work camps”?
Oh, no, you didn’t do that.
Truth is not a matter of agreement. No one cares what you agreed with.
Doesn’t happen. Fuck off.
So overwhelmed, in fact, that you likely didn’t read any of it. You didn’t read the Bletchley Park Decryptions* which show that there was no genocide planned, ordered, or carried out by any Germans anywhere, much less in the camps, and also shows that only 60,000 died at Auschwitz of typhus and malnutrition. You also didn’t read the post-Cold War German documents captured by the Soviets that were released, which show the same.
No, you’re thinking of jews. Such as when the Shoah Foundation only publicized the interviews that said it happened, and hid all the ones where the jews talk about “wow the beer we could buy was so watery” and “oy vey I had to draw the musical notation lines onto the paper they gave me because they didn’t have special musical paper already made!”
Except, you know, for the forensic evidence that proves they didn’t exist. And the physical impossibility of moving the gas in that fashion. And the physical impossibility of venting the room. And the physical impossibility of burning the bodies before they rotted. And the physical impossibility of burning that many bodies in the timeframe allotted. And the physical impossibility of burning ANY bodies WITHOUT FUEL, THAT ALLIED SPY RAIDS SHOW NEVER EXISTED.
Isn’t it funny how you refuse to substantiate any of your claims here?
YES. THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING. You are saying “HURR DURR I TOO SMART TO BE FOOLED (because i say so) THEREFORE IT NO HAPPEN HURRRRRRRR” and thinking yourself a literal fucking god. You’re a solipsist of the highest degree. “I am the smartest being in the universe and anything which contradicts my experiences is not real.”
There is no truth to any aspect of the holocaust narrative. “The camps existed and jews were put there” isn’t part of the narrative, because that has nothing to do with “a holocaust.” You know that words have definitions, right? “Holocaust” is a biblical term. Specifically, a Torahic one. Noah offered a holocaust unto the Lord when he got off the boat. Says it right in the Bible. Now what the fuck do you think THAT means, kiddo? Noah killed 6 million of his fellow kikes right then and there? But I thought that there weren’t too many left? Hmm… Maybe it means “A SACRIFICE BY FIRE”, as the jews did with animals millennia ago, and with Christian children today.
So “the holocaust” narrative means “being put into ovens and burned.” But we know that didn’t happen. So the holocaust didn’t happen.
Post something of substance if you’re not a coward or paid shill, so that we can set you straight.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Yeah this pretty much sums up deniers for me: attitude before substance. I'm not saying you do, or don't for that matter, have anything of value to say but it comes across as Fuck You Fight Me.
Something substantive: Okay, the researcher who found veery low amounts of CN in the concrete taken from the wall of the 'gas chamber' at I forget where. Okay, except that the lab that did the testing was given no instructions beyond what the CN content, and they pulverised the sample diluting it significantly. So is that a complete fabrication or does it in fact draw his conclusion into question?
And no I didn't make any claims, on purpose. My post was only ot ask if I the only one to change his mind back. I remain open to new info on both sides.
I never heard of Bletchley Park Decryptions per se, though I assume you mean the Enimga cypher which the Allies figured out and according to what I read indicates they knew about the death camps early on. You would indicate it's a different story however. So who do I believe?
I'm not shilling for the Jews; rather I'm no longer shilling for deniers.
Tallest_Skil ago
Where’s your substance, dipshit? You posted nothing; you expected us to reply to it? I posted substance; where’s your refutation of it?
Fuck you, jewish shill. You deign to perpetuate my genocide.
So go take another one. The building is right there.
How about you read the 30 handbooks of forensic evidence and get back to us, then? The answer is right there.
How about that. Just like the jews; always nebulous, never settling on anything definite.
Why should we believe you ever changed in the first place?
Bletchley Park was the place in Britain where the transmissions were intercepted/recorded.
Funny how they never show up in the actual transmissions, then, huh?
The truth. People don’t matter, dipshit. There is no reference to “death camps”, “genocide”, or any number of deaths greater than 250,000 for any reason other than wartime maladies in the actual decryptions themselves.
You are INHERENTLY doing this by shilling a lie.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
This may come as a surprise but you're not helping. 'Course that's exactly what a shill would say, right?
Tallest_Skil ago
Still not an argument. Why can’t you reply to what’s being discussed? Why can’t you answer my questions? Why can’t you account for any of your claims?
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
To be clear I never wanted to debate the issue -- re-read my original post because you clearly think otherwise. I don't really have any reply to your questions because #1 I cannot speak to them with any sort of authority, and 2. I no longer necessarily believe many claims made by deniers. I read through that link you posted and everything sounded 100% air tight. But I've also read alternative versions of the situation at Auschwitz-Birkenau that not only also sounded 100% but looks at it from a larger perspective, which speaks to my earlier comments about cherry picking. But to be clear I am not trying to make an argument here, never have. I just was interested if anyone else had stepped away from holocaust denial, as I had. That's it. Period.
There is no doubt in my mind that some very shady shit has happened in the name of Holocaust, and continues to do so. The question is, of course, but what exactly.
Did 6 million-ish die as a result of Nazis? Yeah it was probably something like that. Were they all done in gas chambers? Nope, definitely not. And, always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Tallest_Skil ago
Just like jews. Too bad for you, then.
That’s clear.
YOU’RE STILL FUCKING APPEALING TO AUTHORITY WHEN YOU, PERSONALLY, ARE BEING ASKED?! HOW JEWISH ARE YOU?
… THAT’S WHY YOU’RE BEING ASKED.
The problem is with YOUR PERSONAL COMPREHENSION, not with reality. The reality is that the holocaust did not happen in any form, period.
So… no. There is no “larger perspective”, there is no cherry picking, and you can’t even cite your claim. THE REALITY IS AS FOLLOWS:
That is the reason for “the holocaust.” Period. There is no other reason. It’s an invention. This is the “larger perspective.”
That’s clear.
Why would they?
More like you never denied it in the first place.
This is proven false by the jews’ own admission. This is proven false by the number of jews living in Nazi-occupied Europe. You have absolutely fucking nothing to go on.
Zero of them were, in fact.
“HURRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRR MUH HORSHOFEEREE”
You’re fucking done. You’re clinically insane.
Syndicalism ago
I feel like the evidence that the holocaust is at least misrepresented is pretty compelling. Its hard to get straight facts from that era though. The gas chambers were likely delousing chambers. Most deaths in the camps can be attributed to famine and disease from intense allied bombing. Only the camps that were not allowed to be inspected by post-war counsel were deemed death camps. Archeological evidence the camps were altered to appear like death camps after the war. These are all things I've at least read about, but who knows?
The most damning evidence to me is modern day consequences for challenging the narrative. If the ideas countering the holocaust narrative are so benign and easily defeated then why must we persecute 90 year-olds who espouse such ideas? Why not let them compete in public forum and be trounced with logic? This is my crux with the holocaust narrative.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Yeah I'm pretty much at the same place. Will we ever know the truth? Probably not, for one it's so incredibly complex. And as you point out there are many interests and agendas at play, and since all of our information is 2nd hand, or 3rd 4th..., it's no longer possible to have anything but opinions.
bb22 ago
There are too many coincidences to ignore, starting with the “6 million” mantra going all the way back to the 1800s.
They had an exhibit of what the Nazis allegedly did soon after the war, and included shrunken heads from Africa that were later admitted not to have been made by the Germans. Why lie? Why put that shrunken head there and misrepresent if actually atrocities took place?
Fake documents from that era are easy to forge, but the swimming pool and movie theater at Auschwitz are hard to write out of history when they are still standing to this day.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Auschwitz-Berkenau was a work camp and a death camp, the only one actually (the rest were one or the other -- or so I've read). So from a simplistic understanding the presence of a swimming pool and theatre could make sense. Not a slam dunk but you do have to wonder. Or not, it's your call.
I have no comment on you other points, no idea what they mean.
Tallest_Skil ago
Nothing you’ve said is true. Just leave and don’t come back.
dellcos ago
No. Same as with Ron Paul. No one has ever said, "I USED to support Ron Paul."
Ideas come to through legit thought and research aren't easily swayed.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Are you saying that deniers have come to their position through legit thought and research? I'm not arguing with you, just not clear on your meaning.
dellcos ago
Yes. Any amount of real research will get you "denying" major claims of the holocaust simply by the fact that they are blatantly untrue. And any amount of questioning makes you a "denier." So...
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Fair enough. It's the real research part that the stickler for me though.
dellcos ago
Depends on your definition. But it doesn't take much to see that they are lying about certain things. Then you are in the rabbithole.
For context, I read a book a week, REAL BOOKS, and take notes the whole way. I look at the footnotes and I will actually attempt to assess the sources presented.
Tallest_Skil ago
Libertarians are leftists. Virtually everyone who is actually right-wing supported (past tense) libertarianism at one point, and then they realized that jews exist and races are separate species, and then understood that until the whole world is white libertarianism will never work.
dellcos ago
No one mentioned anything about libertarians. But I generally agree with your comment.
Hard to be leftist though when you are totally against collectivism. So, everything but the first sentence makes sense.
GoddammitMrNoodle ago
Agreed, though I'm at a bit of a loss what it has to do with my post except in the broader discussion of left & right.