Pizzagate is an inherently political topic. It's not a clear line like a cat pic in v/sports. This is an escalation of censorship. As we have seen many times in the past, the concern or lack thereof is directly related to the point of view of the questionable content. {sigh}
A censored Pizzagate is viewpoint censorship by its very nature. If you don't agree with the pedophile ring at the conclusion, then you are may not be invited to discuss it.
Apparently, someone has the permission of the admins to apply strict censorship there, and as we know, HenryCorp has been permitted to censor in his places. So I guess there is a general acceptance of censorship at Voat in subverses that are just a tiny bit removed from "defaults."
Listen up escapees and new immigrants! This is freedom of speech land, stop deleting shit, whining about deleting shit, and trying to delete more shit. There is a simple solution that does not involve giving anyone censorship power.
The voat style "freedom solution" is simple, move your "approved, verified, popular, certifiednotbullshit" post links to either a sticky or a "vetted research forum". Allow the people to vote up what is popular, and then move\include those posts in the new "vetted research" forum.
There is no reason to delete shit here. Simply form a group to verify and link quality vetted research in their own sub, and disregard all the unavoidable noise.
In a sub called "pizzagate" about discovering things about the pedophile ring, submissions not about the pedophile ring are being removed.
Thanks to the many parties wanting to COINTEL this shit under the rug, leaving it to votes really won't work like it does here in PV or other places where $people$ have no interest. (see the recent posts here about the bot-voted content)
Consider this sub to be more like /v/fatpeoplehate or /v/niggers. As long as the issue isn't "ad hominem" because a mod is butthurt, we don't have a problem.
I'm not taking part in the sub at all, but if shit is irrelevant then let the up/down votes sort it out. Why would people upvoat in the first place? The reason heavy handed mod activity is opposed is not because we don't believe the reasons given for deleting shit, but because it isn't the mods duty or right to control the narrative. The community decides.
I don't agree with the comparison to hate cj subs at all, because pg claims to be conducting an investigation. An honest investigation goes where the evidence points. The community should be allowed to collaborate and have discussions about where the evidence is pointing without being squashed by any personal bias from a mod. To say "it will be fruitless to discuss whether there is a racial or religious component" is not legitimate grounds to ban those discussions. Besides, there are plenty of examples of people engaging in horrific crimes while seeking out professions and affiliations that let them wear a mantle of morality that they feel protects them from suspicion and prosecution. (see: Catholic church ). What if the mod was deleting posts based on the politics of the accused?
I'd recommend, if it hasn't happened, discussing removal rules with your sub, and putting them on the sidebar. That's the ONLY issue Voaters should have now with what's going on. It's obvious your sub is meant as an investigative forum, not a race-illuminati-ancient connecting shitfest.
Edit:
"Posts not about PIZZAGATE specifically will be removed. Unfounded, outlandish connections will be removed. EVERY new claim needs a valid, clear source. While some hypothesis and guesses are good to have, things about races, religions, (besides possibly satanic stuff,) and other unfounded or non-useful generalizations are not relevant to this investigation."
And maybe make a sub FOR that kind of crap. "pizzagatehangout" or something where people that came over because of pizzagate but don't want to investigate can shitpost or whatever.
Let me know if I'm wrong here. Actually that goes for anyone - by all means give me a good reason that things shouldn't happen this way in an investigation subreddit.
Edit:
To the people downvoating here, thanks for the confirmation that I'm right. I ask specifically for good reasons why I'm wrong and all you have is your downvoats.
I disagree. The rules as they are posted are contradictory and leave themselves open for censorship. That and it's been openly stated that censorship is in part the intent. They think there are too many "the jews are responsible" posts. So what happens when the Jew-hating faction of the site decides to join their ranks, start looking through their troves of who-knows-what, and starts making some legitimate findings? Will those findings be deleted because they don't comply with rule 4?
I feel like the proposed rules #1 and #3 should be sufficient to keep the subverse moving in the right direction, and set very clearly what that direction is. Rules #2 and #4 are more open to interpretation and open our entire site to abuses.
They think there are too many "the jews are responsible" posts.
Yeah, and while that may be the case, posting about it over and over does nothing to help further the investigation.
So what happens when the Jew-hating faction of the site decides to join their ranks, start looking through their troves of who-knows-what, and starts making some legitimate findings?
Findings backed by sources will be left alone.
Will those findings be deleted because they don't comply with rule 4?
If legitimate findings are removed, you let me know.
I feel like the proposed rules #1 and #3 should be sufficient to keep the subverse moving in the right direction, and set very clearly what that direction is. Rules #2 and #4 are more open to interpretation and open our entire site to abuses.
I don't agree. If the mods delete something they shouldn't, they will need to answer for it. As of the last time I checked, nothing at all was wrong with the removals. @kingkongwaswrong has gone out of his way to both help his subverse assimilate and keep the trolls and paid shills from mucking it up.
Having looked at it from the various posts that abound, I've come to agree with your position.
Specific topic subs have a responsibility to maintain focus and prevent forum slide
There is a need for those mods to put in the subverse rules/sidebar about the removal policy and how it pertains to maintaining quality information on that specific topic
For anyone that disagrees with those rules, we are all free to create as many subverse as we like and apply reasonable rules in a similar manner
I normally prefer allowing votes as a demonstrator of community focus, but given the vote manipulation recently, non system subs will need strong, defensable rules to curb 'distraction of the masses' forum manipulaiton
Thank you for your response. It's not a decision I came to lightly, and I'm not thrilled with what it means for non-system subs - really for any subs, thanks to the massive upvoting of shit-tier posts.
Have any thoughts on the current state of the pizzagate sub? Any recommendations for them?
The pizzagate folks will have a hard enough time working against the shills and incredulous non-believers.
The filthy pedo ring goes waaaay back into old Europe with more recent events happening in the Netherlands in the 90’s, continuing today.
The only recommendation I can offer is perseverance, focus and diligence are the only things that will help them work through the onslaught of pressure they’ll face from many sides.
It's a niche subverse, so while I may not care for their deletion policy, they aren't a Default and are free to set their own rules. Seems to me that the sub's owner is working very hard to assimilate the Voat ways of doing things while still keeping the sub neat and on-topic.
You have a heaping amount on your plate dude and you still have a long road ahead to get stuff straightened out. Transitioning to a new host, learning the written and unwritten rules of our site, keeping your peeps on topic and trying to educate them on all the ins-and-outs here at Voat. You've already done some amazing things helping to get your mods all on the same page; keep up the great work!
Yeah, it's a pretty big catch-22 situation. The guy seems to legitimately want to assimilate and keep everyone happy, but spinning plates and all that.
He already cracked down on a mod removing something for "ad hominem" which is a patently absurd criteria, but IMO if the criteria is "not relevant to investigation" I can get behind that.
The community is also asking for more strict censorship. That sub is honestly a lost cause, they all want extreme rules and to censor speech they don't agree with.
I don't typically say this, but they're a bunch of cucks.
There is something wrong with flairs. We set up our flair categories but cant seem to add flairs to a post. We don;t know how to report bugs, please let me know if you find out
trust me i had the same opinion when I started modding but the sub literally went to shit, no investigation, lazy posts, 'muh antisemitism' everywhere. If you want to just post anything, go to a sub that's for that. Pizzagate is about investigating pizzagate, and contributing to that. People were getting really frustrated and I'm just responding to the community.
Also, 9 moderators? For what actually. No sub needs that many mods. Downvotes decide submissions, and removing CP is understandable. Not 9 fucking mods worth of shit.
Here's the submission log, and their huge fucking list of deletions.
Redditors come to Voat to get away from censorship, only to turn a slice of Voat right back into reddit. I would say to make a new subverse, but half the faggots on that subverse want stricter rules so it wouldn't do anything.
Plus a stream of endless, hours old, and no activity user accounts are doing subrequests. Geez, might want to hang out for a few weeks and figure us out, don.t ya think, before taking control of subs with a Reddit mindset here.
Also in response to your actual thread, we removed all the 'OMG ANTISEMITISM' concern trolls. I'm happy for people to talk about any connections they find relating to jews etc and not going to censor on those grounds. But I'm not interested in the sub just devolving into a conversation between pro-free speech and 'muh antisemitism' posters.
The stricter moderation is in response to the community getting frustrated with the content. I have openly asked for feedback both on the new rules, as well as the deletions I've made.
I honestly believe shills are flooding the subverse with spam and looking to illegitimise the subverse, or get us called out for censorship. We're between a rock and a hard place but after seeing how leaving the sub to its own devices led to a frustrated user base, we're experimenting with being a bit more defined in our modding and rules.
As always, welcome feedback and thoughts on this.
Also in response to your actual thread, we removed all the 'OMG ANTISEMITISM' concern trolls. I'm happy for people to talk about any connections they find relating to jews etc and not going to censor on those grounds. But I'm not interested in the sub just devolving into a conversation between pro-free speech and 'muh antisemitism' posters.
Pizzagate should be considered a default equivalent.
First, it comes directly from a well-known popular subReddit.
Second, it is an across-the-board term to describe the topic.
Arguments that posts are "off topic" do not cut it in any other default equivalent. Pizzagate is asking for special treatment.
REDDIT banned the community. This means that the entire topic would be shut down if the main supporters of Pizzagate try to return there with a new subReddit. But here at Voat, the topic is not banned, and probably never will be.
The best answer to a situation like this, rather than block anyone who might have a different view, is to create another subverse where the "serious" team can maintain a tightly regulated space. You could even put the more serious curated subverse in the sidebar of the original Pizzagate for exposure.
That's fair. :)
What else is fair? The same thing applies to many of the subverses where HenryCorp moderates.
Why is this submission already marked "not abuse" @Kevdude?
flyawayhigh ago
Too late. I did it. :P
flyawayhigh ago
Let me hit you with this first...
the n-word subverse is viewpoint-specific by its name, as is fatpeoplehate. I don't see Pizzagate the same way.
flyawayhigh ago
I see lots of posts not about Jews removed there.
Pizzagate is an inherently political topic. It's not a clear line like a cat pic in v/sports. This is an escalation of censorship. As we have seen many times in the past, the concern or lack thereof is directly related to the point of view of the questionable content. {sigh}
A censored Pizzagate is viewpoint censorship by its very nature. If you don't agree with the pedophile ring at the conclusion, then you are may not be invited to discuss it.
Apparently, someone has the permission of the admins to apply strict censorship there, and as we know, HenryCorp has been permitted to censor in his places. So I guess there is a general acceptance of censorship at Voat in subverses that are just a tiny bit removed from "defaults."
arrggg ago
Listen up escapees and new immigrants! This is freedom of speech land, stop deleting shit, whining about deleting shit, and trying to delete more shit. There is a simple solution that does not involve giving anyone censorship power.
The voat style "freedom solution" is simple, move your "approved, verified, popular, certifiednotbullshit" post links to either a sticky or a "vetted research forum". Allow the people to vote up what is popular, and then move\include those posts in the new "vetted research" forum.
There is no reason to delete shit here. Simply form a group to verify and link quality vetted research in their own sub, and disregard all the unavoidable noise.
Crensch ago
In a sub called "pizzagate" about discovering things about the pedophile ring, submissions not about the pedophile ring are being removed.
Thanks to the many parties wanting to COINTEL this shit under the rug, leaving it to votes really won't work like it does here in PV or other places where $people$ have no interest. (see the recent posts here about the bot-voted content)
Consider this sub to be more like /v/fatpeoplehate or /v/niggers. As long as the issue isn't "ad hominem" because a mod is butthurt, we don't have a problem.
https://archive.is/ROL7Z
Deletions in order:
Given this, I'm more than happy to have the pizzagate mods to remove posts as long as they really are this level of shit-tier.
Let's be honest, if it's not about the investigation into pizzagate, it doesn't belong there.
PM_ME_UR_NOODZ ago
I'm not taking part in the sub at all, but if shit is irrelevant then let the up/down votes sort it out. Why would people upvoat in the first place? The reason heavy handed mod activity is opposed is not because we don't believe the reasons given for deleting shit, but because it isn't the mods duty or right to control the narrative. The community decides.
I don't agree with the comparison to hate cj subs at all, because pg claims to be conducting an investigation. An honest investigation goes where the evidence points. The community should be allowed to collaborate and have discussions about where the evidence is pointing without being squashed by any personal bias from a mod. To say "it will be fruitless to discuss whether there is a racial or religious component" is not legitimate grounds to ban those discussions. Besides, there are plenty of examples of people engaging in horrific crimes while seeking out professions and affiliations that let them wear a mantle of morality that they feel protects them from suspicion and prosecution. (see: Catholic church ). What if the mod was deleting posts based on the politics of the accused?
Crensch ago
@kingkongwaswrong
I'd recommend, if it hasn't happened, discussing removal rules with your sub, and putting them on the sidebar. That's the ONLY issue Voaters should have now with what's going on. It's obvious your sub is meant as an investigative forum, not a race-illuminati-ancient connecting shitfest.
Edit:
"Posts not about PIZZAGATE specifically will be removed. Unfounded, outlandish connections will be removed. EVERY new claim needs a valid, clear source. While some hypothesis and guesses are good to have, things about races, religions, (besides possibly satanic stuff,) and other unfounded or non-useful generalizations are not relevant to this investigation."
And maybe make a sub FOR that kind of crap. "pizzagatehangout" or something where people that came over because of pizzagate but don't want to investigate can shitpost or whatever.
Crensch ago
@kevdude @disappointed @cynoclast @cynabuns
Let me know if I'm wrong here. Actually that goes for anyone - by all means give me a good reason that things shouldn't happen this way in an investigation subreddit.
Edit:
To the people downvoating here, thanks for the confirmation that I'm right. I ask specifically for good reasons why I'm wrong and all you have is your downvoats.
philomath ago
I disagree. The rules as they are posted are contradictory and leave themselves open for censorship. That and it's been openly stated that censorship is in part the intent. They think there are too many "the jews are responsible" posts. So what happens when the Jew-hating faction of the site decides to join their ranks, start looking through their troves of who-knows-what, and starts making some legitimate findings? Will those findings be deleted because they don't comply with rule 4?
I feel like the proposed rules #1 and #3 should be sufficient to keep the subverse moving in the right direction, and set very clearly what that direction is. Rules #2 and #4 are more open to interpretation and open our entire site to abuses.
Crensch ago
Yeah, and while that may be the case, posting about it over and over does nothing to help further the investigation.
Findings backed by sources will be left alone.
If legitimate findings are removed, you let me know.
I don't agree. If the mods delete something they shouldn't, they will need to answer for it. As of the last time I checked, nothing at all was wrong with the removals. @kingkongwaswrong has gone out of his way to both help his subverse assimilate and keep the trolls and paid shills from mucking it up.
philomath ago
Clearly i'm in the minority here.... Time will tell.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Having looked at it from the various posts that abound, I've come to agree with your position.
Specific topic subs have a responsibility to maintain focus and prevent forum slide
There is a need for those mods to put in the subverse rules/sidebar about the removal policy and how it pertains to maintaining quality information on that specific topic
For anyone that disagrees with those rules, we are all free to create as many subverse as we like and apply reasonable rules in a similar manner
I normally prefer allowing votes as a demonstrator of community focus, but given the vote manipulation recently, non system subs will need strong, defensable rules to curb 'distraction of the masses' forum manipulaiton
Crensch ago
Thank you for your response. It's not a decision I came to lightly, and I'm not thrilled with what it means for non-system subs - really for any subs, thanks to the massive upvoting of shit-tier posts.
Have any thoughts on the current state of the pizzagate sub? Any recommendations for them?
VictorSteinerDavion ago
The pizzagate folks will have a hard enough time working against the shills and incredulous non-believers.
The filthy pedo ring goes waaaay back into old Europe with more recent events happening in the Netherlands in the 90’s, continuing today.
The only recommendation I can offer is perseverance, focus and diligence are the only things that will help them work through the onslaught of pressure they’ll face from many sides.
Cynabuns ago
Thanks for the ping.
It's a niche subverse, so while I may not care for their deletion policy, they aren't a Default and are free to set their own rules. Seems to me that the sub's owner is working very hard to assimilate the Voat ways of doing things while still keeping the sub neat and on-topic.
kingkongwaswrong ago
cries thank you
Cynabuns ago
You popping in here speaks volumes, thank you.
You have a heaping amount on your plate dude and you still have a long road ahead to get stuff straightened out. Transitioning to a new host, learning the written and unwritten rules of our site, keeping your peeps on topic and trying to educate them on all the ins-and-outs here at Voat. You've already done some amazing things helping to get your mods all on the same page; keep up the great work!
Crensch ago
Yeah, it's a pretty big catch-22 situation. The guy seems to legitimately want to assimilate and keep everyone happy, but spinning plates and all that.
He already cracked down on a mod removing something for "ad hominem" which is a patently absurd criteria, but IMO if the criteria is "not relevant to investigation" I can get behind that.
kingkongwaswrong ago
this is great, thanks for this. I will add this to our discussion sticky about new mod rules
Crensch ago
Sure, I've edited it a couple times. The last one might be the key to fixing everything.
Then again, maybe a "pizzagateinvestigation" sub would be better - depending on whoever's most likely to move their base of operations.
Le_Squish ago
A sticky was posted asking for commentary and announcing that post were going to be deleted.
Massive concern shilling and content sliding is hitting the sub right now.
I do agree that there are too many unvetted moderators.
@thepower aren't you the faggot that pissed off Lockeproposal spamming Jew conspiracy shit?
kingkongwaswrong ago
ok what about if I made a thread for concerns?
kingkongwaswrong ago
but honestly, what if the sub has a lot of shills?
kingkongwaswrong ago
you're right, but I am genuinely scared of people losing interest in the investigation because their is too much dilution and meta content.
Please go through the deleted threads and point out some you think I should have left, so I can get a sense of your position.
Apathy ago
You mean mods not admins.
SergeantSlother ago
The community is also asking for more strict censorship. That sub is honestly a lost cause, they all want extreme rules and to censor speech they don't agree with.
I don't typically say this, but they're a bunch of cucks.
Crensch ago
Normally I'd agree, but this is a sub specifically for investigation of the pedophile ring. There's no reason to entertain trolling or shitposting.
kingkongwaswrong ago
There is something wrong with flairs. We set up our flair categories but cant seem to add flairs to a post. We don;t know how to report bugs, please let me know if you find out
kingkongwaswrong ago
thanks for the feedback, good point
kingkongwaswrong ago
trust me i had the same opinion when I started modding but the sub literally went to shit, no investigation, lazy posts, 'muh antisemitism' everywhere. If you want to just post anything, go to a sub that's for that. Pizzagate is about investigating pizzagate, and contributing to that. People were getting really frustrated and I'm just responding to the community.
SergeantSlother ago
Also, 9 moderators? For what actually. No sub needs that many mods. Downvotes decide submissions, and removing CP is understandable. Not 9 fucking mods worth of shit.
Here's the submission log, and their huge fucking list of deletions.
Redditors come to Voat to get away from censorship, only to turn a slice of Voat right back into reddit. I would say to make a new subverse, but half the faggots on that subverse want stricter rules so it wouldn't do anything.
Fuck these new reddit faggots.
Owlchemy ago
Plus a stream of endless, hours old, and no activity user accounts are doing subrequests. Geez, might want to hang out for a few weeks and figure us out, don.t ya think, before taking control of subs with a Reddit mindset here.
Crensch ago
https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/1438543/6941681
kingkongwaswrong ago
one day you'll be modding a shill-heavy sub. When that day comes please lets chat again
kingkongwaswrong ago
kingkongwaswrong ago
Please review my sticky (https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1438391)) which I posted pre-deletions, as well as the deletions & reasons.
The stricter moderation is in response to the community getting frustrated with the content. I have openly asked for feedback both on the new rules, as well as the deletions I've made.
I honestly believe shills are flooding the subverse with spam and looking to illegitimise the subverse, or get us called out for censorship. We're between a rock and a hard place but after seeing how leaving the sub to its own devices led to a frustrated user base, we're experimenting with being a bit more defined in our modding and rules.
As always, welcome feedback and thoughts on this.
Also in response to your actual thread, we removed all the 'OMG ANTISEMITISM' concern trolls. I'm happy for people to talk about any connections they find relating to jews etc and not going to censor on those grounds. But I'm not interested in the sub just devolving into a conversation between pro-free speech and 'muh antisemitism' posters.
flyawayhigh ago
Pizzagate should be considered a default equivalent.
First, it comes directly from a well-known popular subReddit.
Second, it is an across-the-board term to describe the topic.
Arguments that posts are "off topic" do not cut it in any other default equivalent. Pizzagate is asking for special treatment.
REDDIT banned the community. This means that the entire topic would be shut down if the main supporters of Pizzagate try to return there with a new subReddit. But here at Voat, the topic is not banned, and probably never will be.
The best answer to a situation like this, rather than block anyone who might have a different view, is to create another subverse where the "serious" team can maintain a tightly regulated space. You could even put the more serious curated subverse in the sidebar of the original Pizzagate for exposure.
That's fair. :)
What else is fair? The same thing applies to many of the subverses where HenryCorp moderates.
Why is this submission already marked "not abuse" @Kevdude?