Subverse Rules Feature (Beta 2) (voatdev)

submitted ago by PuttItOut

Subverse rules are a feature Voat is implementing to remove subjectivism from moderator actions such as comment and submission deletions as well as user bans. Currently a moderator simply has to provide a “reason” why they are performing such actions, and seeing that often times this reason is made up on the spot, we are not happy with this. Going forward when a moderator performs such actions they will be required to select a rule violation. This requirement will help to establish the validity of the action.

Rules can be created at a subverse level by a moderator and Voat has some basic global rules, both of which are available as a selection on these moderator action screens as well as all report dialogs (comment/submission reports).

Rules will also be used in all domain and user bans going forward.

This feature is now in beta on the preview site and any testing would be greatly appreciated.

What needs testing:

  1. Subverse Rule creation
  2. Reporting comment and submissions in a subverse (making sure they show up in the v/sub/about/reports page)
  3. Moderator user banning and unbanning (all this code has been changed)
  4. Moderator comment and submission deletions

Test site: https://preview.voat.co/

P.S. The Vote feature is nearly fully implemented on the preview site, meaning you can create them, vote on them, and then manually process them for full lifecycle testing. :)

You are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

12065405? ago

After revisiting the complaints different people have in this thread (with respect to the votes; the rules feature is fine), these are my thoughts.

People lack faith in the ability of your system to resist alt abuse (the requirements, thresholds, and we haven't even begun testing the "user content contribution" requirements, which I think are most interesting).

The most interesting and legitimate complaints, I think, are those that reject the vote feature even assuming it functions perfectly, and with these people I can sympathize somewhat.

The votes are being created to solve the issue of centralized power, but the fact remains that virtually no one asked for this feature, and so the risk is that more people are likely to oppose it than vocally support it.

I would like to see Voat functioning more efficiently and less of a load on you, which I think you want as well, which is why you are doing this.

However I agree fundamentally with the hesitancy yo embrace full democracy. It does have the habit of ultimately limiting freedom. Look at our democratic societies and how they've been gamed to remove individual liberties again and again.

The fact remains that liberty is best defended by principled leaders with great power who are held to their principles by their people. Voat has stayed free because of your principles -- your refusal to censor or control narratives and your willingness to step in when power mods are destroying communities. Your strength and adherence to these principles is why I admire you so much. But it is a lot to place on one person who has other responsibilities; that is why you've been working on this vote system. But by decentralizing power too much we may lose everything we fought to preserve.

The polls aspect of the feature are perfect and can be used to gauge community opinion. The referenda may be too great a risk, even if requirements are set up perfectly so that account age and contribution are taken into account, the possibility remains that anti-freedom decisions will be made -- if not with the current userbase, then perhaps in a year's time.

But the issue of efficiency remains.

You said somewhere else in the thread that the database can handle volunteers now. Perhaps that is the best way to increase efficiency without decentralizing power and risking the destruction of what this platform stands for. Polls can be used in subverses to gauge opinion, helping mods to act in tough situations. Perhaps the referenda can find a place in a niche environment: large, non-@system, generically named subverses. (Consider /v/Chicago, /v/Canada, which are generically named subverses that are non-@system and corrupted with power mods). A fully implemented referendum feature could allow content producers and older accounts to oust those mods without risking fundamentally changing the core of Voat (@system subverses).

Meanwhile, volunteers who are somehow held to account (public action logs) could relieve some of the burden from you to help Voat run more smoothly. People like Cyna, if she were still around, or Owlchemy and NeedleStack; people who have proven to care about combating spam and keeping Voat usable. Subverse requests, spam removal, illegal content and dox content removal; these things could be spread out to active users who are held to account. I would recommend that you alone deal with moderator conflicts in @system subverses, since in this layout referenda would not apply to @system subverses or small subverses, just the niche cases I described, and people take the @system communities very seriously and probably wouldn't trust anyone buy you to handle issues in those communities. But other areas could be managed smoothly by volunteers.

To summarize:

  • I suggest you pass the rules code when it is done being tested (I don't think many here who undetstand that feature have objected to that)
  • Pass the votes feature; allow polls everywhere, but only allow referenda in non-@system, generically-named, large subverses.
  • Find active volunteers for subverse requests, spam / illegal content / dox removal, and anything else you could use help with, except for handling @system subverse drama and probably site wide bannings -- keep that power to yourself. Have all actions of these volunteers public so that if they abuse power you can replace them.
  • This essentially limits the non-dev work you have to do to bannings, @system drama, and volunteer management.

I realize this doesn't eliminate the fundamental and ultimate dependence on you, but unfortunately I don't think any functioning human community, online or offline, can do without a proper hierarchy. It does, however, eliminate the total dependence, increase efficiency, and refrain from jeopardizing this entire platform through the tyranny of the majority.

PuttItOut ago

The people who want Voat to remain the same won't have Voat in the near future if Voat doesn't innovate and distinguish itself. I understand change is scary, but survival is critical. Voat can't exist as a 'reddit clone.'

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes. Voat has to be a market leader or it won't last and we don't have much time to act.

The reality is Free Speech isn't important enough in and of itself to be a factor for growth, it's a liability that requires us to be creative.

I would give you reassurances but at this point I will just have to prove it... Again.

12083419? ago

This sounds like some Barbara Spectre shit right here. "Voat will no longer be the monolithic society it once was, without this process voat will not survive."

BaneGhostiSwear ago

"free speech... is a liability" - @puttitout

hey voat, you have cancer here, and it's so closed minded it won't even meaningfully discuss the issues with you, the users.

BaneGhostiSwear ago

and by change you mean take out atif and replace all mods with SBBH criminal paid shills, harass away the main userbase, lie openly to the userbase, censor the entire userbase, and ultimately ruin the site, right?

because that's what you did already

Datfracture ago

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes. Voat has to be a market leader or it won't last and we don't have much time to act.

But you still have people posting things like this: https://voat.co/v/whatever/2426558 even after they read your posts here saying how bad a shape voat is in and getting massive upvotes on it. The people just don't know the truth of what you are saying or don't want to realize it.

PuttItOut ago

We might be having an uptick right now but our problem is retention. We have a way of running people off or burning them out.

Datfracture ago

You keep saying that but before anyone mentioned the sticky in v/introductions, I did here: https://voat.co/v/voatdev/2392790 That should be the first starting point. Most of the user base here are on the right but when did it get to the point where you had to be an extremist? People think that sticky is official Voat policy and its deliberately directing them to a changing list of subs he thinks are good. One user in introductions was told to kill themselves before breeding because they were half black. If you are serious about opening the site up to more people then why leave that up? None of the mods are active anymore to do it. @amyacker say it was tempory and it has changed a lot since then the 1.2 years its been there. I doubt it would have been stickied then. I asked if he would rotate the subs it leads to and got no response and have been put on a list of shills for it most likely. How many has it scared off? You gotta start somewhere and then the content producers will come back. Thats what will kill or save voat. We lost the content producers like LockeProposal and many more from subs that were targetted for pushing things the mob don't like, like Gaming and Linux and anything succesful that isnt extremist. Anyway thanks for the work on the site, I'll help test the mod bans, it's a good idea.

Crensch ago

People think that sticky is official Voat policy and its deliberately directing them to a changing list of subs he thinks are good.

Sophistry. Nobody has to be anything.

People think that sticky is official Voat policy and its deliberately directing them to a changing list of subs he thinks are good.

Those people are idiots. So are you for coddling them.

One user in introductions was told to kill themselves before breeding because they were half black.

And?

If you are serious about opening the site up to more people then why leave that up?

Because where the fuck else are people going to send new users? Who cares if it's stickied or not? It's a convenient way to direct people there.

None of the mods are active anymore to do it.

And replace it with what?

@amyacker said it was temporary and it has changed a lot since then the 1.2 years its been there.

Because it was written during the 2016 election hubbub, and when sli.mg was a thing. Keep whining about a post that is at least updated with the times, instead of an unchanging anachronism of a post.

I asked if he would rotate the subs it leads to and got no response and have been put on a list of shills for it most likely.

I don't know you, and I don't care about your opinion. Also, I don't recall ever getting asked to put something there that I didn't at least consider, which means you are lying. What list of shills are you on? More sophistry from you?

How many has it scared off?

Who cares? Nobody needs that level of snowflake that gets scared off over an old introduction to voat post.

You gotta start somewhere and then the content producers will come back.

Says someone that is very obviously NOT a content producer, while referencing someone that IS.

Thats what will kill or save voat.

Gonna need proof of that either way.

We lost the content producers like LockeProposal and many more from subs that were targetted for pushing things the mob don't like, like Gaming and Linux and anything succesful that isnt extremist.

Who? And who targeted them? What "mob" targeted them?

You really don't make a good argument at any resolution here. You wrote this FOUR days ago, when 22 days ago this comment was posted:

@PeaceSeeker writes:

If /v/introductions were not a @system sub I would not consider this a problem of any kind. However, as it is, I agree that the sticky in the subverse would be in better taste if it were apolitical. However, Voat is anything but apolitical, and so attempting to write a post like /u/Crensch did (a post to inform new users of what Voat is about) without commenting on political matters would be virtually impossible. Furthermore, beyond the political content is a great deal of information on Voat culture, which is, I think, the primary reason that post was stickied.

Updating it occasionally between when it was first posted and today only means new happenings, changes in culture, etc. can be added to the list.

Is there something in particular in that post to which you object?

And you responded with NOTHING. Which suggests to LITERALLY ANYONE PAYING ATTENTION that you're just a shitstirrer wanting to pile up bullshit on putt's plate for some anti-voat reason.

Datfracture ago

Check that thread again and you'll see I pinged Peaceseeker when I answered you. Right at the bottom here. It's quite clear. https://voat.co/v/voatdev/2392790/11915847 It's the same place I said this:

If it was going to stay up in v/introductions would you be willing to change the subs on suggestion every now and then.

Which you never replied to.

Crensch ago

If it was going to stay up in v/introductions would you be willing to change the subs on suggestion every now and then.

Notice how there's no question mark there?

And my being willing to consider it now depends on you answering every one of my questions above to the best of your ability.

Datfracture ago

Nothing else you said is worth answering. I wouldn't ask anything of you now anyway. You're in the bargaining stage right now of the Kubler-Ross model. Until you play this little drama of yours out, you have nothing of value to offer.

Crensch ago

Nothing else you said is worth answering.

Then same to you.

I wouldn't ask anything of you now anyway.

Sounds like butthurt.

You're in the bargaining stage right now of the Kubler-Ross model.

Thanks for the LARP, armchair-Freud.

Until you play this little drama of yours out, you have nothing of value to offer.

You never had anything of value in the first place, and some part of you is just now realizing that.

Crensch ago

If it was going to stay up in v/introductions would you be willing to change the subs on suggestion every now and then.

I'd be willing to consider it.

SexMachine ago

Boom.

This is what I've been hearing a lot of. Reddit wasn't a Digg clone. Facebook wasn't a MySpace clone.

Voat and Gab are basically clones of their predecessors with the only major difference being "freedom of speech".

BaneGhostiSwear ago

gab (ie andrew torbastein) removed that claim after i and others showed they were not, in fact, for free speech.

PuttItOut ago

I've always hated the clone term but it's more correct than not.

The biggest thing I've had issue with was that people often thought we were using their code. I mean what kind of person would clone their repo and then try to compete? That just seems low class to me.

freshmeat ago

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes

There have been multiple waves of users come to this site only to be driven off, and PeaceSeeker him/herself said that "your group" isn't interested in growth, but rather keeping a small loyal base of donators.

Just what the flip is going on?

PuttItOut ago

There is no future I can see if Voat remains small. There is no purpose either. Voat has to have steady growth to remain viable else someone should just clone the repo and start a new Voat and then they can have their small site.

Voat's current attitude towards new members only inflicts self-harm, and as an owner of a site that has accepted groups I'd rather not have here, it pisses me off that these former people are less accepting than Voat was towards them. It's bullshit.

voatHatesTheFirst ago

Says the biggest new comer hater of them all, the one that leads the charge to make new people feel unwelcome.

You alone are responsible for untold thousands of new comers showing up, making some contribution, then leaving in a short time never to return. You make it easy to downvoat a new account, or any account for that matter, into a state of unusableness. Censorship.

You have not integrity whatsoever, no principles, no ethics or morality. You are a lying piece of shit. You are incompetent. Your 'success' and popularity here (and only here) are via the many stupids and ill intending bottom of the barrel internet dweebs here.

You should kill your self, the level of deceit you have inflicted here.

BaneGhostiSwear ago

maybe focus on removing censorship.

Grifter42 ago

What you've done to this site is just continue it's steady creep towards being Reddit.

Your cult of personality only serves to manipulate the masses, I suspect, but if you're still in there somewhere, they're playing you for a fool.

You're playing word games to excuse broken rules and botting and brigades, and the abuses of the same people you trust to test your code. Beatle was the same man who spammed chat and yet, when I asked you about why you shut it down, you said,

"chat was dropped when we did the port because the socket libraries were not available. It will be back soon as their port is nearing completion."

Then, I pressed you about it, and you totally changed your tune, saying, "Chat was being raped.". But it was your people raping it. It was Beatle, and the SBBH collective raping it.

What happened to you during those two months you were gone now?

I've heard you're not even the same Putt that used to in charge of the account. I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

Koalemos_Grottesco ago

Well said, agree 100%

adhdferret ago

The user base is like that because of the numerous times you as well as us deal with the fucks.

Look at /niggers.

Let's say you don't agree with what is said there nor do you like it's message. Well that place has been fucked over 3 times since being here. The original content creators have all but left, and the mod there now is great, but you were about to shut it down.

I am glad you didn't because I support that subverse message and it's members.

Well we are very vocal to newer members because we know what triggers them, and what will make them leave. Free speech is great but you need to accept it and use it. Reddit refugees need that bitter spoon of medicine.

Just the way it is....but I bet that if you made a post and did a sticky asking for tolerance for new members and explain your position people would need the words.

That is how much you mean to us. Think about that for a moment.

The core base of this platform will honor your wishes and we will bring it up when others do it within the thread if people tried to use it against you.

We love you man and you love us.

Grifter42 ago

Jesus, can you stop slobbing on his fucking knob for a second and realize what this is?

Just another step from the Spez of Voat, towards Redditification.

Fuck this cult of personality shit. He ain't Jim Jones, this ain't Jonestown, and I ain't drinking the fucking kool-aid.

Womb_Raider ago

There is no purpose either.

Voat has landed its name on network news stations. It has been referenced by citizen investigators who look into some of the dregs of society and the most baser acts of the elite. Voat is very much a useful tool and what you are suggesting could compromise its effectiveness.

If anything, you should make a second platform, because what you are describing is wholly different in spirit than voat. It's an entirely different ballgame and, frankly, a farcry from what your original vision seems to have been. With every comment and announcement, you cement my worry that you were replaced during your unannounced 2 months of absence.

If the website is not financially stable, why do you not engage in merch drives or encourage donations? Your actions do not appear to mirror your rhetoric.

owner of a site that has accepted groups I'd rather not have here

It pains me to realize you likely throw me in with this group, but I genuinely care about the supposed ideals of this place - the ideals Atko held. I just hope you do also.

coopzy ago

They haven't accepted money, BTC, or done merch in so long. @puttitout where is the money coming from? Why won't you LET US GIVE YOU MONEY?

Setting up a software wallet takes all of 1 minute with Electrum. You're lead dev for a popelar website. If I can do it you can.

Grifter42 ago

Now you're asking the important questions. The truth is that this site's been sold out for a long time.

Womb_Raider ago

Something is shady about all this

WhiteRonin ago

Something is up! For sure.

Womb_Raider ago

I'm going to miss this place, dude. Three years I've spent here.

gabara ago

You've been saying you're leaving soon for a long time now. We're not buying it anymore, T'wilek

Womb_Raider ago

I've never said it before now. And I'm only leaving depending on how the voat voting nonsense goes.

gabara ago

Back in december, you were telling God @heygeorge you wouldn't be back,.

Womb_Raider ago

I did not.

gabara ago

Whatever. You're boring me now. I'm going to go pick on 9-11/freshmeat now. I found some dirt on him in a google cache from reddit. I just have to add a suitable border. Posting it real soon.

Womb_Raider ago

I'm not here to entertain you. I'm here to learn. I'm here to help others learn. You're here to farm salt.

gabara ago

Actually I'm here to learn AND harvest salt. Same as you, dude. Dude I'm not your enemy.

WhiteRonin ago

I hear yah. It’s been fun and I’d hate to see it go libtard.

coopzy ago

Very much so. Every time I've brought this up I've gotten radio silence. I know @teranNotTerran has offer to give a bunch of money but they don't want it

Ialwayssaythis ago

Agreed. I would pay 50 a month FOREVER

BaneGhostiSwear ago

@womb_raider @coopzy @grifter42

it's privately funded.

sincerely,

sanegoat.

oh, and @puttitout isn't justin chastain, it's a group of shills. enjoy!

coopzy ago

I'm starting to think you are just Atko trying to warn us about this. You took your payoff and ran but now are having major guilt.

BaneGhostiSwear ago

i am not. if i was atif colo, i'd have run this site better and never let SJW shills take it over.

Womb_Raider ago

Things he's saying aren't adding up, that much I will agree with. He is claiming we're broke and making no effort to change that. I want to donate $50 right now, but I can't. I feel like Putt isn't being honest with us.

BaneGhostiSwear ago

aye. nigger isn't being straight with the community. it stinks as hard as when he banned 100s of users for upvoting me (to the tune of 12,000 ccp), but didn't ban a single user for downvote brigading me (to the tune of 20,000 ccp)

adhdferret ago

It has remained stagnate because the only one with teeth is also the one who is least likely to use them. The internet hasn't progressed to a point where it can be let off a chain. Just won't happen anytime soon.

These people have no consequence for the things they do. So they will act accordingly. These people have done nothing but make accounts and sit on them until they burn one. Then switch to another.

Spam is actually less of a bother than trolls who can game the system over and over. They see this as a challenge when he does something to the code.

I say we purge accounts that have been inactive for 6months. Were if you don't comment, you lose it. You want to lurk? Do so,. But without an account. Votes shouldn't count as participating.

Be part of the discussion. Want to vote make a comment....earn your stripes here because let's face it this is how they have false relevance. It can allow you to see when vote farms are created as well.

Make new accounts invite only. That way you can track and see where these are coming from. Allow one invite a day and it be sent to an email. It will show you trends over time too.

Put says he wants Voat to grow? Well it is going to take man power and accountability to see shit to the end.

Womb_Raider ago

I agree. I feel like you're thinly referencing SBBH and... well I don't know if you see it, but I think he is friends with them. I really do.

lordbeatlejuicethe1 ago

sbbh > rPV

Womb_Raider ago

Maybe in Putt's playpen, but not elsewhere.

lordbeatlejuicethe1 ago

i am fighting to keep you from bein benned and then you make outrageous claims.

Womb_Raider ago

No, you are not. https://archive.fo/1zmgg

This is also you: https://voat.co/v/MindShare/2426126

Mickgoestojail ago

Most of us are willing to wait and see. You've stepped in when it counted in the past.