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12065405? ago

After revisiting the complaints different people have in this thread (with respect to the votes; the rules feature is fine), these are my thoughts.

People lack faith in the ability of your system to resist alt abuse (the requirements, thresholds, and we haven't even begun testing the "user content contribution" requirements, which I think are most interesting).

The most interesting and legitimate complaints, I think, are those that reject the vote feature even assuming it functions perfectly, and with these people I can sympathize somewhat.

The votes are being created to solve the issue of centralized power, but the fact remains that virtually no one asked for this feature, and so the risk is that more people are likely to oppose it than vocally support it.

I would like to see Voat functioning more efficiently and less of a load on you, which I think you want as well, which is why you are doing this.

However I agree fundamentally with the hesitancy yo embrace full democracy. It does have the habit of ultimately limiting freedom. Look at our democratic societies and how they've been gamed to remove individual liberties again and again.

The fact remains that liberty is best defended by principled leaders with great power who are held to their principles by their people. Voat has stayed free because of your principles -- your refusal to censor or control narratives and your willingness to step in when power mods are destroying communities. Your strength and adherence to these principles is why I admire you so much. But it is a lot to place on one person who has other responsibilities; that is why you've been working on this vote system. But by decentralizing power too much we may lose everything we fought to preserve.

The polls aspect of the feature are perfect and can be used to gauge community opinion. The referenda may be too great a risk, even if requirements are set up perfectly so that account age and contribution are taken into account, the possibility remains that anti-freedom decisions will be made -- if not with the current userbase, then perhaps in a year's time.

But the issue of efficiency remains.

You said somewhere else in the thread that the database can handle volunteers now. Perhaps that is the best way to increase efficiency without decentralizing power and risking the destruction of what this platform stands for. Polls can be used in subverses to gauge opinion, helping mods to act in tough situations. Perhaps the referenda can find a place in a niche environment: large, non-@system, generically named subverses. (Consider /v/Chicago, /v/Canada, which are generically named subverses that are non-@system and corrupted with power mods). A fully implemented referendum feature could allow content producers and older accounts to oust those mods without risking fundamentally changing the core of Voat (@system subverses).

Meanwhile, volunteers who are somehow held to account (public action logs) could relieve some of the burden from you to help Voat run more smoothly. People like Cyna, if she were still around, or Owlchemy and NeedleStack; people who have proven to care about combating spam and keeping Voat usable. Subverse requests, spam removal, illegal content and dox content removal; these things could be spread out to active users who are held to account. I would recommend that you alone deal with moderator conflicts in @system subverses, since in this layout referenda would not apply to @system subverses or small subverses, just the niche cases I described, and people take the @system communities very seriously and probably wouldn't trust anyone buy you to handle issues in those communities. But other areas could be managed smoothly by volunteers.

To summarize:

  • I suggest you pass the rules code when it is done being tested (I don't think many here who undetstand that feature have objected to that)
  • Pass the votes feature; allow polls everywhere, but only allow referenda in non-@system, generically-named, large subverses.
  • Find active volunteers for subverse requests, spam / illegal content / dox removal, and anything else you could use help with, except for handling @system subverse drama and probably site wide bannings -- keep that power to yourself. Have all actions of these volunteers public so that if they abuse power you can replace them.
  • This essentially limits the non-dev work you have to do to bannings, @system drama, and volunteer management.

I realize this doesn't eliminate the fundamental and ultimate dependence on you, but unfortunately I don't think any functioning human community, online or offline, can do without a proper hierarchy. It does, however, eliminate the total dependence, increase efficiency, and refrain from jeopardizing this entire platform through the tyranny of the majority.

PuttItOut ago

The people who want Voat to remain the same won't have Voat in the near future if Voat doesn't innovate and distinguish itself. I understand change is scary, but survival is critical. Voat can't exist as a 'reddit clone.'

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes. Voat has to be a market leader or it won't last and we don't have much time to act.

The reality is Free Speech isn't important enough in and of itself to be a factor for growth, it's a liability that requires us to be creative.

I would give you reassurances but at this point I will just have to prove it... Again.

freshmeat ago

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes

There have been multiple waves of users come to this site only to be driven off, and PeaceSeeker him/herself said that "your group" isn't interested in growth, but rather keeping a small loyal base of donators.

Just what the flip is going on?

PuttItOut ago

There is no future I can see if Voat remains small. There is no purpose either. Voat has to have steady growth to remain viable else someone should just clone the repo and start a new Voat and then they can have their small site.

Voat's current attitude towards new members only inflicts self-harm, and as an owner of a site that has accepted groups I'd rather not have here, it pisses me off that these former people are less accepting than Voat was towards them. It's bullshit.

Grifter42 ago

What you've done to this site is just continue it's steady creep towards being Reddit.

Your cult of personality only serves to manipulate the masses, I suspect, but if you're still in there somewhere, they're playing you for a fool.

You're playing word games to excuse broken rules and botting and brigades, and the abuses of the same people you trust to test your code. Beatle was the same man who spammed chat and yet, when I asked you about why you shut it down, you said,

"chat was dropped when we did the port because the socket libraries were not available. It will be back soon as their port is nearing completion."

Then, I pressed you about it, and you totally changed your tune, saying, "Chat was being raped.". But it was your people raping it. It was Beatle, and the SBBH collective raping it.

What happened to you during those two months you were gone now?

I've heard you're not even the same Putt that used to in charge of the account. I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.