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12065405? ago

After revisiting the complaints different people have in this thread (with respect to the votes; the rules feature is fine), these are my thoughts.

People lack faith in the ability of your system to resist alt abuse (the requirements, thresholds, and we haven't even begun testing the "user content contribution" requirements, which I think are most interesting).

The most interesting and legitimate complaints, I think, are those that reject the vote feature even assuming it functions perfectly, and with these people I can sympathize somewhat.

The votes are being created to solve the issue of centralized power, but the fact remains that virtually no one asked for this feature, and so the risk is that more people are likely to oppose it than vocally support it.

I would like to see Voat functioning more efficiently and less of a load on you, which I think you want as well, which is why you are doing this.

However I agree fundamentally with the hesitancy yo embrace full democracy. It does have the habit of ultimately limiting freedom. Look at our democratic societies and how they've been gamed to remove individual liberties again and again.

The fact remains that liberty is best defended by principled leaders with great power who are held to their principles by their people. Voat has stayed free because of your principles -- your refusal to censor or control narratives and your willingness to step in when power mods are destroying communities. Your strength and adherence to these principles is why I admire you so much. But it is a lot to place on one person who has other responsibilities; that is why you've been working on this vote system. But by decentralizing power too much we may lose everything we fought to preserve.

The polls aspect of the feature are perfect and can be used to gauge community opinion. The referenda may be too great a risk, even if requirements are set up perfectly so that account age and contribution are taken into account, the possibility remains that anti-freedom decisions will be made -- if not with the current userbase, then perhaps in a year's time.

But the issue of efficiency remains.

You said somewhere else in the thread that the database can handle volunteers now. Perhaps that is the best way to increase efficiency without decentralizing power and risking the destruction of what this platform stands for. Polls can be used in subverses to gauge opinion, helping mods to act in tough situations. Perhaps the referenda can find a place in a niche environment: large, non-@system, generically named subverses. (Consider /v/Chicago, /v/Canada, which are generically named subverses that are non-@system and corrupted with power mods). A fully implemented referendum feature could allow content producers and older accounts to oust those mods without risking fundamentally changing the core of Voat (@system subverses).

Meanwhile, volunteers who are somehow held to account (public action logs) could relieve some of the burden from you to help Voat run more smoothly. People like Cyna, if she were still around, or Owlchemy and NeedleStack; people who have proven to care about combating spam and keeping Voat usable. Subverse requests, spam removal, illegal content and dox content removal; these things could be spread out to active users who are held to account. I would recommend that you alone deal with moderator conflicts in @system subverses, since in this layout referenda would not apply to @system subverses or small subverses, just the niche cases I described, and people take the @system communities very seriously and probably wouldn't trust anyone buy you to handle issues in those communities. But other areas could be managed smoothly by volunteers.

To summarize:

  • I suggest you pass the rules code when it is done being tested (I don't think many here who undetstand that feature have objected to that)
  • Pass the votes feature; allow polls everywhere, but only allow referenda in non-@system, generically-named, large subverses.
  • Find active volunteers for subverse requests, spam / illegal content / dox removal, and anything else you could use help with, except for handling @system subverse drama and probably site wide bannings -- keep that power to yourself. Have all actions of these volunteers public so that if they abuse power you can replace them.
  • This essentially limits the non-dev work you have to do to bannings, @system drama, and volunteer management.

I realize this doesn't eliminate the fundamental and ultimate dependence on you, but unfortunately I don't think any functioning human community, online or offline, can do without a proper hierarchy. It does, however, eliminate the total dependence, increase efficiency, and refrain from jeopardizing this entire platform through the tyranny of the majority.

PuttItOut ago

The people who want Voat to remain the same won't have Voat in the near future if Voat doesn't innovate and distinguish itself. I understand change is scary, but survival is critical. Voat can't exist as a 'reddit clone.'

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes. Voat has to be a market leader or it won't last and we don't have much time to act.

The reality is Free Speech isn't important enough in and of itself to be a factor for growth, it's a liability that requires us to be creative.

I would give you reassurances but at this point I will just have to prove it... Again.

freshmeat ago

Voat has remained stagnate from a growth perspective for 2+ years and this won't change if nothing changes

There have been multiple waves of users come to this site only to be driven off, and PeaceSeeker him/herself said that "your group" isn't interested in growth, but rather keeping a small loyal base of donators.

Just what the flip is going on?

PuttItOut ago

There is no future I can see if Voat remains small. There is no purpose either. Voat has to have steady growth to remain viable else someone should just clone the repo and start a new Voat and then they can have their small site.

Voat's current attitude towards new members only inflicts self-harm, and as an owner of a site that has accepted groups I'd rather not have here, it pisses me off that these former people are less accepting than Voat was towards them. It's bullshit.

Womb_Raider ago

There is no purpose either.

Voat has landed its name on network news stations. It has been referenced by citizen investigators who look into some of the dregs of society and the most baser acts of the elite. Voat is very much a useful tool and what you are suggesting could compromise its effectiveness.

If anything, you should make a second platform, because what you are describing is wholly different in spirit than voat. It's an entirely different ballgame and, frankly, a farcry from what your original vision seems to have been. With every comment and announcement, you cement my worry that you were replaced during your unannounced 2 months of absence.

If the website is not financially stable, why do you not engage in merch drives or encourage donations? Your actions do not appear to mirror your rhetoric.

owner of a site that has accepted groups I'd rather not have here

It pains me to realize you likely throw me in with this group, but I genuinely care about the supposed ideals of this place - the ideals Atko held. I just hope you do also.

coopzy ago

They haven't accepted money, BTC, or done merch in so long. @puttitout where is the money coming from? Why won't you LET US GIVE YOU MONEY?

Setting up a software wallet takes all of 1 minute with Electrum. You're lead dev for a popelar website. If I can do it you can.

Womb_Raider ago

Something is shady about all this

WhiteRonin ago

Something is up! For sure.

Womb_Raider ago

I'm going to miss this place, dude. Three years I've spent here.

WhiteRonin ago

I hear yah. It’s been fun and I’d hate to see it go libtard.