Sad to see Carl Jung's name tainted in this article here because of his early association with Freud. They were two very different psychoanalysts. Jung split from Freud because of Freud's obsession with sex and insistence with filtering all human experience through that lens. He developed a more spiritual approach to psychology as well as the concepts of the collective unconscious distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He argued that the collective unconscious had profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences.. There is a vast chasm between Freudian and Jungian psychotherapists and psychoanalysts which lasts to this day.
Jung's close collaboration with Freud lasted until 1913. Jung had become increasingly critical of Freud's exclusively sexual definition of libido and incest. The publication of Jung's Wandlungen und Symbole der Libido (known in English as The Psychology of the Unconscious) led to a final break.
From Wikipedia :
Critics of the collective unconscious concept
They mean Freudians
have called it unscientific and fatalistic, or otherwise very difficult to test scientifically (due to the mythical aspect of the collective unconscious) for those faith-based scientists.[2] Proponents suggest that it is borne out by findings of psychology, neuroscience, and anthropology.
Meaning: can no longer hide the fact that neuroscience and other scientific disciplines are corroborating Jung's theories.
The world of psychology is still largely dominated by Freudian disciples. Please don't get the two men and their work confused. It would be a huge disservice to Jung.
I was a fan of Jung before I researched this. I don't think he was the monster Freud was, but his connections to Tavistock and Esalen do need to be looked into.
I am aware of the difference between Jung and Freud -- I have always liked Jung. However, Jung also describes having had an alter personality as a child, and described his mother similarly. So I cannot ignore these types of things while researching this area. I think I wrote in the article that he would be as much a victim as perpetrator, if the indications from childhood are correct.
eg: "Jung was a solitary and introverted child. From childhood, he believed that, like his mother,[11] he had two personalities—a modern Swiss citizen and a personality more suited to the 18th century.[12] "Personality Number 1", as he termed it, was a typical schoolboy living in the era of the time. "Personality Number 2" was a dignified, authoritative and influential man from the past."
You will realize from my posts that I am a big fan of Jung. I regard him as one of the great minds of the 20th Century. He was also deeply spiritual. He was not connected to Esalen. Esalen was founded in 1962. They have taken some of his teachings because he was so influential and his concepts extremely powerful in terms of the human psyche. Freud on the other hand seems to have been a pervert and some of that has been hidden in the writing of his history. His family line is still influential in London - with Tavistock and other psychological institutions. Most psychology textbooks are heavily Freudian. Jung was too spiritual and somewhat more complex for materialists. However as we as a society become more complex we can see Jung's influence in companies like Disney and Marvel comics, for example, who use his ideas on archetypes to create characters that are deeply influential to young people. And we see some of these ideas played out ever more crudely in pop culture.
I mostly agree with everything you've said here. I think it is unwise to allow our personal respect for anyone to negate research around them.
Seriously. This entire series of posts mentioned Jung in brief in one part of a much longer investigation into a related topic, but is not and was not intended to unfairly mar Jung. And since he is listed in association with Tavistock directly, it is not unfair to think that he warrants further research.
"Many well-known psychologists and psychiatrists have passed through the Tavistock Institute over the years, and it became known as the focal point in Britain for psychoanalysis and the psychodynamic theories of Sigmund Freud and his followers. Other names associated with the Tavistock are Melanie Klein, Carl Gustav Jung, J. A. Hadfield, Beckett, Charles Rycroft, Wilfred Bion, and R. D. Laing."
Here's what I wrote about him:
"Before stumbling upon this area of research, I had believed Jung to have been a genuinely positive influence in developing therapuetic methods. After researching his connections to Tavistock, and Esalen, it is clear to me that despite my previous assumptions, Jung was most likely involved in similar studies of trauma based mind control. His life is haunting when viewed from this perspective. He acknowledged that in childhood he perceived himself and his mother to have had alternate personalities."
"His interest in primitive cultures and ritual is also significant in understanding Esalen and associated group's near-obsession with these same cultures.Jung's artistic expression in works like the Red Book might be viewed as much as the inner work of a DID sufferer, as that of a person involved with the research and perpetuation of abuses by military intelligence groups."
I feel this was at once truthful and sympathetic to Jung. No where did I call him a monster.
This link is more food for thought on Jung's behaviour; I am not intending to smear OR support him. Only point out that this is all worth more research, that is all.
I would ask you to please read the entire articles I posted, which are much larger in scope than an argument around Jung, and I think are very important in regards to ritual abuse.
After researching his connections to Tavistock, and Esalen, it is clear to me that despite my previous assumptions, Jung was most likely involved in similar studies of trauma based mind control.
You need to back up that statement. Where's the evidence to qualify that statement?
Also, you are apparently ignoring the fact that Jung slept with a mentally ill patient. When he dumped her, she stabbed him. This was the catalyst for the Red Book.
Are you going to tell me that he was a cool guy so him sleeping with a patient is ok? I do not go for covering up the reality of abuse. Ever.
Not intending to mar. I just want people to look into this. I am not here to argue about the good or bad of Jung's personality or his work individually. I am here to try to explain how ritual abuse is tied to "hippy" retreat centers that had military intelligence ties, including to the Finders.
i was told by my own "RA Anon" that it's all very, very compartmentalized and often the people involved don't know the full story or the extent of what they're working on. i personally believe Jung probably didn't know the exact significance of his work for them if he was involved.
yeah i agree with you on this. we have to remember that it's always a smaller handful of people that are actually aware of & involved with issues like trafficking and SRA.
although there probably does exist various connections that the writer of the article lays out, i just don't jive with his perspective and also the conclusions that he jumps to. i'm actually quite interested in consciousness studies myself, at least at one point i was doing some reading about that.
they co-opt everything real and valuable and turn it into shit. they're like reverse alchemists. (within my spiritual frame of reference they literally are reverse alchemists; turning value into shit, manifestation into void, life into death, etc)
it would be painful and baffling if literally every person who ever wondered about higher truths or spiritual growth was secretly in on it for the MK Ultra lulz, so i just can't believe that's the case. Jung had some really valuable ideas and i genuinely don't think he was "in on it."
This pisses me off. Just about every fan of the videogame series "Persona" are gonna be pissed about this tainting of Jung's name, for Jungian Psychology is the center piece of the entire series.
I'm not into videogames myself so I just had a quick look and I'm quite impressed with the deep use of Jungian psychology. Do you think something like that could be used to mess with people's heads and 're-program them', so to speak?
Depends on context and how its used. Many things can be used for both good and evil, except the things that are inherently evil.
A "shadow" self isn't nessecarily evil as it represents what exists in a person's subconsious. The road to self improvement requires a person to understand and accept their shadow. Or at least that's how it works for a decent person. In an evil person, a shadow is what they subconsciously hide not from themselves, but what they actively hide from others to keep appearances.
Persona is thoroughly about the POSITIVE side of Jungian Psychology in its "Social Link" quests, namely the part about self improvement, facing the deeper truths of yourself and the world.
Persona 5 is actually a big time "Red Pill Game" for those who understand its deeper truths.
The final arc is a massive allegory for the Deep State and its dirty tactics. Due to his MO, the main villain is an allegory to Hillary Clinton. One of the game's party members is an allegory for 4chan possibly /pol due to her weaponized autism (she is believed to have Aspergers).
As someone steeped in Jungian psychology I certainly don't see a 'shadow self' as evil. Video games can be used for good or bad or neither. As I have not played Persona I just wondered what you thought of it. Thanks for the feedback and introducing me to it.
The Persona series (3 and beyond) are widely considered gaming masterpieces, and thus have my highest recommendation.
Persona 5 (the red pill game) is already being considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time despite only being about 4.5 months old (US, 11 months old in Japan). Easily the best game in the series.
One of 5's party members requires a basic understanding of Jungian psychology to understand half of what he's talking about.
I'm with you on that....Jung provided a very useful framework for understanding this shit show we are in....and rejected the purely materialistic approach to the mind that got us here in the first place....
That said his ideas also do seem to have been taken up by the shady mind controlly end of new age which brought us pizzagate
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cantsleepawink ago
Sad to see Carl Jung's name tainted in this article here because of his early association with Freud. They were two very different psychoanalysts. Jung split from Freud because of Freud's obsession with sex and insistence with filtering all human experience through that lens. He developed a more spiritual approach to psychology as well as the concepts of the collective unconscious distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He argued that the collective unconscious had profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences.. There is a vast chasm between Freudian and Jungian psychotherapists and psychoanalysts which lasts to this day.
Here is a link with a very simple summary about the two men https://www.simplypsychology.org/psychodynamic.html
From Wikipedia :
They mean Freudians
Meaning: can no longer hide the fact that neuroscience and other scientific disciplines are corroborating Jung's theories.
The world of psychology is still largely dominated by Freudian disciples. Please don't get the two men and their work confused. It would be a huge disservice to Jung.
9217 ago
I was a fan of Jung before I researched this. I don't think he was the monster Freud was, but his connections to Tavistock and Esalen do need to be looked into.
I am aware of the difference between Jung and Freud -- I have always liked Jung. However, Jung also describes having had an alter personality as a child, and described his mother similarly. So I cannot ignore these types of things while researching this area. I think I wrote in the article that he would be as much a victim as perpetrator, if the indications from childhood are correct.
eg: "Jung was a solitary and introverted child. From childhood, he believed that, like his mother,[11] he had two personalities—a modern Swiss citizen and a personality more suited to the 18th century.[12] "Personality Number 1", as he termed it, was a typical schoolboy living in the era of the time. "Personality Number 2" was a dignified, authoritative and influential man from the past."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung
cantsleepawink ago
You will realize from my posts that I am a big fan of Jung. I regard him as one of the great minds of the 20th Century. He was also deeply spiritual. He was not connected to Esalen. Esalen was founded in 1962. They have taken some of his teachings because he was so influential and his concepts extremely powerful in terms of the human psyche. Freud on the other hand seems to have been a pervert and some of that has been hidden in the writing of his history. His family line is still influential in London - with Tavistock and other psychological institutions. Most psychology textbooks are heavily Freudian. Jung was too spiritual and somewhat more complex for materialists. However as we as a society become more complex we can see Jung's influence in companies like Disney and Marvel comics, for example, who use his ideas on archetypes to create characters that are deeply influential to young people. And we see some of these ideas played out ever more crudely in pop culture.
9217 ago
I mostly agree with everything you've said here. I think it is unwise to allow our personal respect for anyone to negate research around them.
Seriously. This entire series of posts mentioned Jung in brief in one part of a much longer investigation into a related topic, but is not and was not intended to unfairly mar Jung. And since he is listed in association with Tavistock directly, it is not unfair to think that he warrants further research.
Tavistock's wiki page mentions Jung's association with Tavi:
"Many well-known psychologists and psychiatrists have passed through the Tavistock Institute over the years, and it became known as the focal point in Britain for psychoanalysis and the psychodynamic theories of Sigmund Freud and his followers. Other names associated with the Tavistock are Melanie Klein, Carl Gustav Jung, J. A. Hadfield, Beckett, Charles Rycroft, Wilfred Bion, and R. D. Laing."
Here's what I wrote about him:
"Before stumbling upon this area of research, I had believed Jung to have been a genuinely positive influence in developing therapuetic methods. After researching his connections to Tavistock, and Esalen, it is clear to me that despite my previous assumptions, Jung was most likely involved in similar studies of trauma based mind control. His life is haunting when viewed from this perspective. He acknowledged that in childhood he perceived himself and his mother to have had alternate personalities."
"His interest in primitive cultures and ritual is also significant in understanding Esalen and associated group's near-obsession with these same cultures.Jung's artistic expression in works like the Red Book might be viewed as much as the inner work of a DID sufferer, as that of a person involved with the research and perpetuation of abuses by military intelligence groups."
I feel this was at once truthful and sympathetic to Jung. No where did I call him a monster.
This link is more food for thought on Jung's behaviour; I am not intending to smear OR support him. Only point out that this is all worth more research, that is all.
I would ask you to please read the entire articles I posted, which are much larger in scope than an argument around Jung, and I think are very important in regards to ritual abuse.
cantsleepawink ago
Sure. I'm sure Jung can handle the scrutiny :-)
Now let's get down to business:
You need to back up that statement. Where's the evidence to qualify that statement?
9217 ago
Also, you are apparently ignoring the fact that Jung slept with a mentally ill patient. When he dumped her, she stabbed him. This was the catalyst for the Red Book.
Are you going to tell me that he was a cool guy so him sleeping with a patient is ok? I do not go for covering up the reality of abuse. Ever.
9217 ago
Among many other issues, Carl Jung's involvement with John Weir Perry, who studied directly with him.
Perry set up Diabasis House in connection with Esalen, which was closely modeled on RD Laing's similar exp in london.
Weir Perry is deeply involved with problematic groups. Which I wrote about here -
https://steemit.com/news/@whitedeer9217/ra-anon-esalen-part-3
Not intending to mar. I just want people to look into this. I am not here to argue about the good or bad of Jung's personality or his work individually. I am here to try to explain how ritual abuse is tied to "hippy" retreat centers that had military intelligence ties, including to the Finders.
10314366? ago
i was told by my own "RA Anon" that it's all very, very compartmentalized and often the people involved don't know the full story or the extent of what they're working on. i personally believe Jung probably didn't know the exact significance of his work for them if he was involved.
angry_mob ago
yeah i agree with you on this. we have to remember that it's always a smaller handful of people that are actually aware of & involved with issues like trafficking and SRA.
although there probably does exist various connections that the writer of the article lays out, i just don't jive with his perspective and also the conclusions that he jumps to. i'm actually quite interested in consciousness studies myself, at least at one point i was doing some reading about that.
10320379? ago
they co-opt everything real and valuable and turn it into shit. they're like reverse alchemists. (within my spiritual frame of reference they literally are reverse alchemists; turning value into shit, manifestation into void, life into death, etc)
it would be painful and baffling if literally every person who ever wondered about higher truths or spiritual growth was secretly in on it for the MK Ultra lulz, so i just can't believe that's the case. Jung had some really valuable ideas and i genuinely don't think he was "in on it."
cantsleepawink ago
I'm sure that's true too.
darkknight111 ago
This pisses me off. Just about every fan of the videogame series "Persona" are gonna be pissed about this tainting of Jung's name, for Jungian Psychology is the center piece of the entire series.
9217 ago
Pointing out the truth factually is not tainting his name. If he did shameful things, he tainted it all by himself.
darkknight111 ago
Question is "Did he do something, or were his ideas co-opted"? That I don't know.
Jungian Psychology has potential to be used both for great good or for great evil.
I hope that the truth is that he was "Co-opted" rather than actively corrupt.
9217 ago
If you think my research is only about Jung, you've missed the entire point.
darkknight111 ago
I'm just saying my personal feelings. My reasons for being upset.
The other stuff in there is actually quite interesting and worth further inquiry.
Happy hunting.
cantsleepawink ago
I'm not into videogames myself so I just had a quick look and I'm quite impressed with the deep use of Jungian psychology. Do you think something like that could be used to mess with people's heads and 're-program them', so to speak?
darkknight111 ago
Depends on context and how its used. Many things can be used for both good and evil, except the things that are inherently evil.
A "shadow" self isn't nessecarily evil as it represents what exists in a person's subconsious. The road to self improvement requires a person to understand and accept their shadow. Or at least that's how it works for a decent person. In an evil person, a shadow is what they subconsciously hide not from themselves, but what they actively hide from others to keep appearances.
Persona is thoroughly about the POSITIVE side of Jungian Psychology in its "Social Link" quests, namely the part about self improvement, facing the deeper truths of yourself and the world.
Persona 5 is actually a big time "Red Pill Game" for those who understand its deeper truths.
The final arc is a massive allegory for the Deep State and its dirty tactics. Due to his MO, the main villain is an allegory to Hillary Clinton. One of the game's party members is an allegory for 4chan possibly /pol due to her weaponized autism (she is believed to have Aspergers).
cantsleepawink ago
As someone steeped in Jungian psychology I certainly don't see a 'shadow self' as evil. Video games can be used for good or bad or neither. As I have not played Persona I just wondered what you thought of it. Thanks for the feedback and introducing me to it.
darkknight111 ago
The Persona series (3 and beyond) are widely considered gaming masterpieces, and thus have my highest recommendation.
Persona 5 (the red pill game) is already being considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time despite only being about 4.5 months old (US, 11 months old in Japan). Easily the best game in the series.
One of 5's party members requires a basic understanding of Jungian psychology to understand half of what he's talking about.
cantsleepawink ago
A videogame ? What? Lol. I'm going to check it out.
madhatter67 ago
I'm with you on that....Jung provided a very useful framework for understanding this shit show we are in....and rejected the purely materialistic approach to the mind that got us here in the first place....
That said his ideas also do seem to have been taken up by the shady mind controlly end of new age which brought us pizzagate
cantsleepawink ago
That's because they co-opt everything and use all human knowledge to turn it against the masses.