They are pushing this HARD now.
First of all, we already know that the Andrew Kline listed as "agent" on Besta Pizza is just an attorney who filed the paperwork, and we know that the Andrew Kline in the DOJ is a different Andrew Kline.
http://archive.is/I2has
http://archive.is/2ji23
Secondly, I have seen zero evidence of a Saudi connection to Besta Pizza, other than someone with an Arab name (Abdel Rahman Hammad) being listed as "governor" in business filing for the location. Remember that LegionWill was pushing this without providing SOURCES, and he was OUTED AS A SHILL and deleted his account.
Also, the video posted on youtube by "Random Rants of Ryan" is disinformation. If you put the video quality to where you can actually read what's on the screen, it is showing businesses owned by 3 different people, none of which are Abdel Rahman Hammad. They are 3 different people named "Hammad Abdelrahman." This is like confusing people named Michael Johnson for someone name John Michaelson.
NOTE: I do believe there is a Saudi connection, but these disinformants are trying to send us on a wild goose chase and get us to promote fake evidence (and possibly slander an innocent man) so we discredit ourselves! Be careful! Investigate any alleged evidence CLOSELY and CAREFULLY, and DEMAND SOURCES/EVIDENCE.
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AdVict0riam ago
As bad as it's been lately, can we sticky this for a bit? It's super important this Andrew Kline disinfo doesn't take root.
Millennial_Falcon ago
@kingkongwaswrong @Crensch @VictorSteinerDavion
VictorSteinerDavion ago
If you think this is something worth digging into go for it, the only 'permission' you need is your own conscience and the support of the community through participation.
Considering the discussion around this, a sticky is probably worth the effort if it helps people maximise the amount of information being shared, feel free to make it a sticky.
kingkongwaswrong ago
hey man, victorsd is a hands off owner, I think crensch didn't mean to be so active and I'm going to be awol soon, feel free to do this stuff if you feel like it's the right decision! You have mod powers, you should be able to do most things.
I'll sticky it right now, since I'm not sure if you're online but next time if you think it's the best thing for this board right now, feel free to do so.
anonentity ago
Kline bought it for a dollar off of the Saudis, that's what happens sometimes with gifted properties.
Millennial_Falcon ago
Maybe for a day or two, as a warning to users about disinformation and the need to be skeptical of new claims. The summary sticky is also pretty important. I'll be glad to maintain somewhat of an active role, although I do have to balance with other responsibilities. Soon I'll see if I can find a few more mod candidates to help out with watching for disinfo and posting violations.
justanotherpizza ago
Mods set the framework for this sub, so in my view it is very important to have active moderators that can take this kind of defensive action to preserve legitimacy / credibility. I think this is where the old reddit pizzagate mods messed up. a hands off approach lets an active opponent create tons of accounts that can completely distort the sub. without a moderator exercising judgement, it literally will go to shit. Something that I and I believe others would appreciate is some kind of objective measurement related to each main lead. what are the supporting facts, what speaks against, so that rhetoric without substance cannot gain ground.
thank you for all this work.
kingkongwaswrong ago
You're right, we need more domain and subject matter expert mods who can help in these instances.
I for one dont know enough and don't read deeply enough to be able to confidently make these kind of decisions, so I really appreciate @millennial_falcon stepping up. He's a hero.
Millennial_Falcon ago
D'awwwww. Here's hopin' I don't get "an-heroed" :D
justanotherpizza ago
The attacks to de-rail, dilute and disinform the sub are persistent and getting more voting power as shill accounts begin to mature. dealing effectively with organized shill activity should be the focus of one mod. that is a domain owner you need. we can do without subject matter experts longer than we can do without an effective counter-measure to the destructive activity going on. one idea is to penalize accounts that generate a lot of new posts but without adding value. of course you need to define transparently what you are doing and why, so everyone can buy into the logic or criticize its weak points. the fact is that shill activity can be profiled, and it should be addressed systematically to defang their growing power over this sub. You guys are all heroes in my book, but you have a real challenge on your hands, and some kind of immune system needs to develop in this sub before the cancer takes over. only you guys can create this.
other ideas ive had. create bots that comment on posts that trigger one or more shill behaviour criteria. there are ways to fight this that are transparent and respect the free speech principle.
VictorSteinerDavion ago
I am active, but not in a manner that is easily apparent.
My primary function is to make sure the sub doesn't fall to bad actors via mod churn (rapid mod turnover), and to help the other owners in case of calamity.
If you think this is a worthwhile thing to add to the community maybe you can take that on when you see the need.
A comment containing an objective assesment given all the other info surrounding the topic can help people gather perspective on this ever growing jigsaw puzzle.
Moderators are servants to you the community, if you think the community could benefit from a course of action speak up and bring it to the attention of the community.
And just for reference, this sub will not be left moderator less or taken over by bad actors due to the foresight and planning of @kingkongwaswrong, doing this work is not a risk free endeavour.
There are a few checks and balances to ensure this doesn't turn into a reddit shithole. I am messaged frequently by concerned members of voat and I welcome bringing to my attention the concerns of the community.
kingkongwaswrong ago
<3 love you man. I love our intellectually diverse mod group.
darkofthemoon ago
@kingkongwaswrong @Crensch @VictorSteinerDavion
You might want to take a deeper look at this issue and check which side is really disinformation here. There has been an orchestrated campaign to shut down all discussion about Andrew J. Kline by making it appear that there is a consensus that Andrew J. Kline (Veritas) is not the same person as Andrew J. Kline (DOJ). I would like to see the idea discussed calmly, but when the opposition's preferred tactic is to shut down discussion on the pretext that everything has been debunked already, that's not possible.
You see, I think the Andrew J. Kline from Washington D.C. in the first picture is the same person as Andrew J. Kline from Washington D.C. in the second picture. It's just that he's gotten older and gained weight. His twitter profile picture https://archive.fo/0sPda is from the interim period and shows a smile identical to the one in the second picture.
Mommyplayer571 ago
The only tweet I had to remove from locked twitter was using Andrew Kline name. I think he is linked to this. Perhaps a USG blackmail operation.
SherlockMcGyver ago
Negative, teeth are different, hair has a natural difference, etc. You're just wrong on this one. They're clearly different people. They also have clearly different biographies. Here's a challenge, call both of them, or email both of them. Then you'll get laughed at by both of them when you bring it up.
VieBleu ago
This is not a convincing reply Sherlock. Do you have dental records? ever been to a hair salon? written a fib on your resume? Please. Oh, but the laughter argument, you are right on with that one.
Honestly, the training you guys recieve is sub par.
YingYangMom ago
The ears are not the same at all. The nose is different as well.
darkofthemoon ago
The hair is exact same, just cut differently. The teeth are uneven, and with a 3D object it's only natural that it shows differently from a different angle, etc.
I'm planning on making an infographic.
Baluga ago
Maybe cousins or something, but they work for different law firms, went to different law schools, and had no idea they were going to be part of a pizzagate online research scandal.
darkofthemoon ago
But isn't it interesting that they both go by Andrew J. and look similar enough that we're even having this discussion? And the only law firm I see is Veritas.
Looking at the biographies...
The Veritas guy:
The "other guy" was hired as faculty to the School of Public affairs, but the it doesn't actually say where he went to school. But trying to look even this deep is futile when the entire issue is dismissed out of hand.
Commonwombat ago
I'm sure if you could find definitive proof of them being the same people then that would blow our minds and it would be game on. People were asserting it as fact and that, at this stage is not true. That's what this post is all about.
Baluga ago
The "other guy" went to school at:
Master of Public Administration, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University Juris Doctor, Pepperdine University School of Law.
darkofthemoon ago
The two key words: In addition. I failed to notice that bit (a honest mistake), but it looks like the unified Andrew J. Kline has two degrees: A law degree from the Marshall-Wythe School of Law at the College of William and Mary and a Masters in Public Administration from the John F. Kennedy School of Government. A very accomplished person, clearly.
Baluga ago
This isn't a unified Andrew. Professor Kline has a Masters from JFK School (at Harvard) and a JD from Pepperdine. He doesn't have a degree from William and Mary.
darkofthemoon ago
Sorry (genuinely). I think I finally see it now, though I needed to use ctrl-f to find the text. I've been over-wired with the emotional pressure from this Pizzagate thing, having to write quick replies, and sleeping badly. I think it's getting to me, like my attention is pinpointed at one thing and something like browsing through a text properly is hard. Permanently tired too. I think I might delete these several posts, but I think I want you to see this first.
Still... They really do look a great deal alike... Cousins, maybe.
Investigate1999 ago
I, for one, am glad that you both discussed this. That being said, don't focus on this issue any more, but still keep it in mind, because 1 of those pages could be a lie. It's not like we are examining honest people.
zoot3d ago
biggity bango