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Have Jester Lodge Criminals, House Pedophile Freemasons stolen $3-billion from Shriners Hospitals? Are all these seperate Masonic groups the same??
https://voat.co/v/QRV/3145210/17909358
The knight templar were the bankers for the Vatican. The pope outlawed then seized their assests and supposedly had many executed. Now thats what I learned decades ago. The illumanati were the outcropping of the knights templar and the legand of Jesus's supposedly wife, Mary Magdelene fled to Gaul. (France) were she gave birth to a daughter, Sara. Thus began the Merivengian clan.
I found it very interesting that we find that name in the movie The Matrix. And the role the Merivengian played with the "KEY" maker.
Where does it also connect? Haiti, India, Rome, Qatar? .....
Four Rochdale islamist pedo child abuse gang members are STILL in Britain with one living back at home again a decade after abusing girls as young as 12'
2019-06-16 | Four Rochdale grooming gang members are STILL in Britain | Daily Mail Online
'Eight judges, including the Master of the Rolls Lord Justice Sales, have now heard their case and upheld rulings all four should lose UK citizenship rights. '
'At a previous hearing, judges noted the decision to strip an individual of UK citizenship, called a deprivation order, does not automatically lead to deportation order. ', "The victims of a notorious Rochdale grooming gang have been 'failed again' after it emerged four men have still not been deported a decade after preying on girls as young as 12.", "Referred to as 'The Master' by the gang, he played a 'leading role' in the grooming."
'A staff member at the office for Rochdale MP Tony Lloyd said no-one was available for comment. '
So whats happening to Britbong @Art1cBear@Sharipie ? @MagnusVeritas@tendiesonfloor@Oveass the Dutch British, Jerusalem, Rome, Babylon ... is there some kind of connection to that Stone religion the Knights brought to the West after they were stuck behind the enemy lines?
OP and the retards in the comments don't recognise a Sikh vs a Muslim.
OP posts a fake news image to a title unrelated to the image. Retards start chiming in.
If you can't see what the OP is doing, you are as fucking stupid as any leftist pedophile protecting cunt.
If the OP was a decent human being and not a paid shill here to Divide ... they would have provided sources, not a fake image unrelated to their title.
Wake the fuck up. We are in an information war, and when you stop thinking critically and start just buying any shit you see and acting emotionally as most of these retarded uneducated comments are, (((they))) win.
The Sikhs were victims of it and I haven't come across any Hindu connection. Provide sources for your claims. You sound like the OP trying to spread disinformation and controlling the narrative. Amazing how many responses I received in less than a minute trying to redirect the conversation. All the same guy with sock puppet accounts?
Just look at the Ladder with Albert Pike, it has some times islam, other times the Mason ritual it has rome, it has india ...it take what it wants like a parasite.... its an Occult political system maybe going back to Babylon. It will use cuttings and bits from other books the Vedas, the Pentateuch, the Quran or Koran and prayer to mohammed. The Masons moved to College now with black mail at the parties and funny robe rituals, the old Shriners branch connected to the islamists. If you arrive at a Mason temple in India you might find any number of book they swear to they might pray to the Tanakh, Torah, Talmud or Koran or quotes from the Quran or perhaps bhagavad gita as a freemason ... all smoke and mirrors to hide whats really happening at the top?
I'm the OP thanks for the replies and i admit i dunno really whats going on, it seems masons are dying and the final scandal about to hit them will be bigger than anything that happened the roman catholic church or hollyweird
OP directing the narrative in the comments and replying to comments unrelated to the title, topic, and fake image. OP not addressing the being called out for spreading disinformation.
None of that is provided. The OP posts an image completely unrelated to the title. Posts no sources. I want to know more about "Former Britbongistan Police Officer says all News stations got letter saying to not investigate Paki Rape Gangs" I want to know more about "MI5 Did Not Tell Of Deceased Minister Peter Morrison's 'Penchant For Small Boys'" ... the reason for clicking on the title in the first place, the reason YOU clicked on the title in the first place. What you got was an image completely unrelated of Masonic ceremony featuring Sikhs, not muslims. The narrative in the comments completely changes to something else completely unrelated to the topic ... and you can't see how you are being played by the OP?
Are you stupid ... or the OP on an alt account? What has your response got to do with anything I said. Why aren't you asking the OP why he didn't provide a link instead of an unrelated photo, pushing the narrative in a direction completely away from the title. The title was click bait. If you can't see that, you are either brainwashed beyond help, or working with the OP.
Why do Shriners do those things, drive around in Childrens cars and wear those little Red Hats that Celebrate the Massacre of Christians?? https://www.voat.co/v/anon/3285751 Masonics, Shriners? The Emissaries Of Jahbulon part 4 of 4
Thanks for confirming the Shills and paid disinformation agents are here today.
"What is their real god? ...you think the response is smart? smart like maybe 67 IQ intelligence ...fooled by the smoke and mirrors........and Jimmy Savile claimed to be Christian ..."
Nothing to do with this thread. Trying to redirect the narrative. Thanks for playing.
im the OP, i had looked at this stuff before. looking into masons I hear their god was jabulon, they may also pray to some great builder god a demiurge of good and evil, someone else had a post showing they pray to some tranny goat thing at the top of masonry, they said this was called baphomet but that might be disinfo or crazy conspiracy. there are many connections and many branches of masons, when one gets caught in a scandal they quickly try to distance themselves and try say they do not connect to that lodge
Its the utter betrayal of the British people by their own government! Tommy had a minor relative hooked on drugs and prostituted by a criminal Paki gang and the police refused to do anything BECAUSE THEY FEAR BEING CALLED RACISTS!!!!!
Do Epstein's wealth and elite connections make him impossible to bring to justice? Investigative journalist Ben Swann joins Scottie Nell Hughes to discuss. https://www.voat.co/v/8chan/3308896
Have Jester Lodge Criminals, House Pedophile Freemasons stolen $3-billion from Shriners Hospitals? Are all these seperate Masonic groups the same?? https://www.voat.co/v/QRV/3145210/17889508 If no other Freemason organization is calling them out, then to me they are all the same! Repugnant in a free and open Society! JFK
The illuminati Freemasons Secretly Worship Jahbulon https://voat.co/v/AnonTalk/3210952/18832177 The cult mindset is real. Check out this great documentary about Jewish cultists in Israel. Explains a lot about the origins of freemasons, illuminati, Hollywood, etc. (whatever)
There are 33 degrees, Jabulon is mentioned in One of them and not in any context ... this is clear if you actually read the original sources and not the bullshit that people made up and spread.
the picture comes together? It's an old cult they said.... Something about the Dutch, a religion taken West by Knights stuck in enemy lands, something about Egypt, London, Rome and Arabia @Scroobius @ ? @Wheatstone ? @Plavonica@TheSeer the Art rituals, Hollywood, Jefferey Epstein, Laura Silsby and Jimmy Savile. There is factual evidence....
Posted automatically (#60752) by the SearchVoat.co Cross-Link Bot. You can suppress these notifications by appending a forward-slash(/) to your Voat link. More information here.
Make Me Believe - Ep 18 - Adrenochrome https://voat.co/v/AnonTalk/3248226/18899971 You need to research people like Jefferey Epstein, Laura Silsby and Jimmy Savile. There is factual evidence out there.
Robert Maxwell aka Mr Media Jew born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch , a big media Empire and lots of scandals ... https://files.catbox.moe/puh242.png Resting place on the height of Mount of Olives Jewish Cemetery, Jerusalem .... had a daughter, Ghislaine Maxwell she grows up and enters media. After moving to America, Maxwell and the billionaire American financier Jeffrey Epstein had a romantic relationship, and Maxwell remained close to him after their break-up.
Maxwell has attracted press coverage for her friendship with perv Prince Randy Andy Andrew, Duke of York, the second son of Queen Elizabeth II, who attended social functions with her in New York. Maxwell introduced Epstein to Prince Andrew and the three often socialized together.
In 2008, Epstein was convicted of soliciting a minor for prostitution and served 13 months of an 18-month jail sentence. Details of a civil lawsuit made public in January 2015 contained a deposition from a woman, identified as 'Jane Doe 3', accusing Maxwell of having recruited her in 1999, when she was a minor, to have sex with Epstein.
Sir Jimmy Savile the Establishment's Favourite Paedophile
http://www.charliefoulkes.co.uk/truth/savile.html
Jimmy Savile had friends in high places and friends in low places. An "everyman", if you like. He was the glue that held a lot of bad people together.
2004-03-10 | A Ritual Gone Fatally Wrong Puts Light on Masonic Secrecy - The New York Times
'Over the years, the Southside Masonic Lodge members developed their own initiation rituals for the social club in the lodge that set them apart from most other Masonic organizations, members said. ', "Orders like the Southside Masons seem more concerned today with Christmas parties and raising money for blood drives and children's charities than ritual.", "This is a mistake, not a criminal act. ''The Southside Masons are mostly middle-aged or retired men who come from middle-class backgrounds."
'Masonic leaders statewide were quick to disavow the incident, saying it was not Masonic custom to shoot guns at other members. ', "Late Monday night, police carried evidence and ritual objects out of the Masons' one-story lodge in Patchogue."
and the Masonic Shriner is always trying to lure in the children @AllGoyim ? @Broc_Lia@somebody112@Smallest_Skil f something goes from Asia to S.America to Haiti and Africa and London, Jerusalem, Rome runs everything? the Stone cutters, India, Arabia and 'Jimmy Savile' .... the Pyramid with the Burning Eye on Top?
Each Country, Religion, Sexual Orientation, has its deep state Psycopath’s (it is estimated 1% of the population has the psycopathic mental disorder), these people have manipulated people on their way up the ladder and have sold out to the other psycopath’swho have already rose to prominence, all while laughing at the gullible masses (in their mind, “the Idiots”) https://voat.co/v/QRV/3227579/18693025
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Approved many of the 9/11 hijackers entry into the US? Mason Shriner Brennan praises Islam in Arabic!!! islam founded by war monger pedophile jihadi who wanst the Destruction of Western Civilisation https://voat.co/v/QRV/3292786/19328501 The secret societies were created during the cruisades. Masons, Shriners, Knights of Templar etc... Listen to the Mystery Babylon series by William Cooper. He tells the whole story of it.
https://voat.co/v/QRV/3288926 Two Grammy Winning Producers DEAD in 3 Days // I'm Sure It's All a Coincidence or Pop Music is tied up in Pizzagate, can't decide....
20489380? ago
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19679377? ago
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19679317? ago
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19582111? ago
Have Jester Lodge Criminals, House Pedophile Freemasons stolen $3-billion from Shriners Hospitals? Are all these seperate Masonic groups the same?? https://voat.co/v/QRV/3145210/17909358 The knight templar were the bankers for the Vatican. The pope outlawed then seized their assests and supposedly had many executed. Now thats what I learned decades ago. The illumanati were the outcropping of the knights templar and the legand of Jesus's supposedly wife, Mary Magdelene fled to Gaul. (France) were she gave birth to a daughter, Sara. Thus began the Merivengian clan.
I found it very interesting that we find that name in the movie The Matrix. And the role the Merivengian played with the "KEY" maker.
19581772? ago
Where does it also connect? Haiti, India, Rome, Qatar? .....
Four Rochdale islamist pedo child abuse gang members are STILL in Britain with one living back at home again a decade after abusing girls as young as 12'
https://archive.ph/2uJnl :
'Eight judges, including the Master of the Rolls Lord Justice Sales, have now heard their case and upheld rulings all four should lose UK citizenship rights. '
'At a previous hearing, judges noted the decision to strip an individual of UK citizenship, called a deprivation order, does not automatically lead to deportation order. ', "The victims of a notorious Rochdale grooming gang have been 'failed again' after it emerged four men have still not been deported a decade after preying on girls as young as 12.", "Referred to as 'The Master' by the gang, he played a 'leading role' in the grooming."
'A staff member at the office for Rochdale MP Tony Lloyd said no-one was available for comment. '
19581323? ago
https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2019/07/03/read-the-ruling-2nd-circuit-orders-jeffrey-epstein-records-unsealed-cautions-media-and-public/?slreturn=20190604083537 Court Orders Jeffrey Epstein Records Unsealed, Cautions Media and Public - Could Expose Powerful Politicians, Businessmen | New York Law Journal
19581663? ago
So whats happening to Britbong @Art1cBear @Sharipie ? @MagnusVeritas @tendiesonfloor @Oveass the Dutch British, Jerusalem, Rome, Babylon ... is there some kind of connection to that Stone religion the Knights brought to the West after they were stuck behind the enemy lines?
19585630? ago
I'm more into your mom, nigger
19581024? ago
OP and the retards in the comments don't recognise a Sikh vs a Muslim.
OP posts a fake news image to a title unrelated to the image. Retards start chiming in.
If you can't see what the OP is doing, you are as fucking stupid as any leftist pedophile protecting cunt.
If the OP was a decent human being and not a paid shill here to Divide ... they would have provided sources, not a fake image unrelated to their title.
Wake the fuck up. We are in an information war, and when you stop thinking critically and start just buying any shit you see and acting emotionally as most of these retarded uneducated comments are, (((they))) win.
19581239? ago
Did you know a lot of Sikhs and Hindu were also involved in the Paki Rape gangs
19581278? ago
The Sikhs were victims of it and I haven't come across any Hindu connection. Provide sources for your claims. You sound like the OP trying to spread disinformation and controlling the narrative. Amazing how many responses I received in less than a minute trying to redirect the conversation. All the same guy with sock puppet accounts?
19581150? ago
Just look at the Ladder with Albert Pike, it has some times islam, other times the Mason ritual it has rome, it has india ...it take what it wants like a parasite.... its an Occult political system maybe going back to Babylon. It will use cuttings and bits from other books the Vedas, the Pentateuch, the Quran or Koran and prayer to mohammed. The Masons moved to College now with black mail at the parties and funny robe rituals, the old Shriners branch connected to the islamists. If you arrive at a Mason temple in India you might find any number of book they swear to they might pray to the Tanakh, Torah, Talmud or Koran or quotes from the Quran or perhaps bhagavad gita as a freemason ... all smoke and mirrors to hide whats really happening at the top?
19581236? ago
Completely off the topic. Read the title of the post and what you've just written. Are you trying to cover for the OP?
19581279? ago
I'm the OP thanks for the replies and i admit i dunno really whats going on, it seems masons are dying and the final scandal about to hit them will be bigger than anything that happened the roman catholic church or hollyweird
19581297? ago
OP directing the narrative in the comments and replying to comments unrelated to the title, topic, and fake image. OP not addressing the being called out for spreading disinformation.
19581099? ago
The Atheists, the islamic rituals, Occult Jews and Masons, is a connection?
19581119? ago
None of that is provided. The OP posts an image completely unrelated to the title. Posts no sources. I want to know more about "Former Britbongistan Police Officer says all News stations got letter saying to not investigate Paki Rape Gangs" I want to know more about "MI5 Did Not Tell Of Deceased Minister Peter Morrison's 'Penchant For Small Boys'" ... the reason for clicking on the title in the first place, the reason YOU clicked on the title in the first place. What you got was an image completely unrelated of Masonic ceremony featuring Sikhs, not muslims. The narrative in the comments completely changes to something else completely unrelated to the topic ... and you can't see how you are being played by the OP?
20639165? ago
wut? @antiliberalsociety birtbongistani
19581746? ago
David Cameron was the Piggy guy @Octoclops then replaced by Ms Brexit
19589723? ago
Every response is off topic. Virtually every response is by the same guy using multiple accounts having conversations with himself.
19581209? ago
https://twitter.com/ViscountBraith1/status/1146798015040167936 Ex-police officer Dionne Miller: "The British Government wilfully allowed British children to become prey to Pakistani rape gangs. They issued a blanket ban on investigations."
19581249? ago
Are you stupid ... or the OP on an alt account? What has your response got to do with anything I said. Why aren't you asking the OP why he didn't provide a link instead of an unrelated photo, pushing the narrative in a direction completely away from the title. The title was click bait. If you can't see that, you are either brainwashed beyond help, or working with the OP.
19581187? ago
Why do Shriners do those things, drive around in Childrens cars and wear those little Red Hats that Celebrate the Massacre of Christians?? https://www.voat.co/v/anon/3285751 Masonics, Shriners? The Emissaries Of Jahbulon part 4 of 4
19581240? ago
Completely off topic. Congrats on being played.
19580066? ago
That's a Sikh.....
19581639? ago
its a freemason not just a sikh freak
19581237? ago
Many Sikhs and Hindu were also involved in the Paki Rape gangs
19581120? ago
At least one intelligent response. Thank you!
19581211? ago
What is their real god? ....and Jimmy Savile claimed to be Christian ...
19581261? ago
Thanks for confirming the Shills and paid disinformation agents are here today.
"What is their real god? ...you think the response is smart? smart like maybe 67 IQ intelligence ...fooled by the smoke and mirrors........and Jimmy Savile claimed to be Christian ..."
Nothing to do with this thread. Trying to redirect the narrative. Thanks for playing.
19581293? ago
im the OP, i had looked at this stuff before. looking into masons I hear their god was jabulon, they may also pray to some great builder god a demiurge of good and evil, someone else had a post showing they pray to some tranny goat thing at the top of masonry, they said this was called baphomet but that might be disinfo or crazy conspiracy. there are many connections and many branches of masons, when one gets caught in a scandal they quickly try to distance themselves and try say they do not connect to that lodge
19581300? ago
OP provides a comment that has nothing to do with the thread. Once again, redirecting the narrative.
19581105? ago
and this one says its Japanese https://www.hooktube.com/watch?v=NW_iaOXk4LQ that eye covered in flame .. who are they really praying to?
19572252? ago
Tommy: I'm going to jail for confronting a “convicted Muslim pedophile” | Jessica Swietoniowski https://www.bitchute.com/video/86ESq8rxUSzK/
19574072? ago
Globalist Judges dont like that Tommy guy @Trousersnake1488 @noworldorder ? @con77 @lordvain2 @70times7 strange times for the Londonistani
19574930? ago
Its the utter betrayal of the British people by their own government! Tommy had a minor relative hooked on drugs and prostituted by a criminal Paki gang and the police refused to do anything BECAUSE THEY FEAR BEING CALLED RACISTS!!!!!
19571822? ago
Do Epstein's wealth and elite connections make him impossible to bring to justice? Investigative journalist Ben Swann joins Scottie Nell Hughes to discuss. https://www.voat.co/v/8chan/3308896
19581688? ago
This is strange a lot of these cults? the old rituals of the elites @Hebrew-Virus @syntaxaxe they go back to Arabia? @UrCoolerOlderBrother Babylon the middle east ? @14WordsToFreedom @Schreiber old Egypt, Rome, London, the Arabs, the Jews is there some kind of link between them?
19771250? ago
A lot of them are a bunch of religious zealots and that area is significant to abrahamic religions.
19571842? ago
Have Jester Lodge Criminals, House Pedophile Freemasons stolen $3-billion from Shriners Hospitals? Are all these seperate Masonic groups the same?? https://www.voat.co/v/QRV/3145210/17889508 If no other Freemason organization is calling them out, then to me they are all the same! Repugnant in a free and open Society! JFK
19571785? ago
The illuminati Freemasons Secretly Worship Jahbulon https://voat.co/v/AnonTalk/3210952/18832177 The cult mindset is real. Check out this great documentary about Jewish cultists in Israel. Explains a lot about the origins of freemasons, illuminati, Hollywood, etc. (whatever)
19581038? ago
There are 33 degrees, Jabulon is mentioned in One of them and not in any context ... this is clear if you actually read the original sources and not the bullshit that people made up and spread.
19581223? ago
? https://www.voat.co/v/Conspiracy/2762924 Not a Conspiracy Theory: Rich Lining Up to Pay for the Blood of Children to Be Injected into Them
19581284? ago
Completely off topic. Trying to redirect the narrative. I see you.
19571798? ago
https://voat.co/v/QRV/3146591 Mack > Ranier > Bronfman > Rothschild
19571758? ago
Skull n Bones Masonics https://voat.co/v/QRV/3144434 ?
20412092? ago
Pakistan's Intelligence Agency Logo - Symbolism will be their downfall. https://voat.co/v/QRV/3397625/20311398 That is literally the baphomet
19581714? ago
the picture comes together? It's an old cult they said.... Something about the Dutch, a religion taken West by Knights stuck in enemy lands, something about Egypt, London, Rome and Arabia @Scroobius @ ? @Wheatstone ? @Plavonica @TheSeer the Art rituals, Hollywood, Jefferey Epstein, Laura Silsby and Jimmy Savile. There is factual evidence....
19571812? ago
https://voat.co/v/QRV/3159365 The Enemy is The Cult of Baal?
19571681? ago
Shriners, Freemasons, and Islam Connection...Have you ever wondered why there is so little resistance to the Muslim invasion ?
20412091? ago
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19574712? ago
Make Me Believe - Ep 18 - Adrenochrome https://voat.co/v/AnonTalk/3248226/18899971 You need to research people like Jefferey Epstein, Laura Silsby and Jimmy Savile. There is factual evidence out there.
19581265? ago
Nothing to do with the topic. Redirecting the narrative.
19572049? ago
Robert Maxwell aka Mr Media Jew born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch , a big media Empire and lots of scandals ... https://files.catbox.moe/puh242.png Resting place on the height of Mount of Olives Jewish Cemetery, Jerusalem .... had a daughter, Ghislaine Maxwell she grows up and enters media. After moving to America, Maxwell and the billionaire American financier Jeffrey Epstein had a romantic relationship, and Maxwell remained close to him after their break-up.
Maxwell has attracted press coverage for her friendship with perv Prince Randy Andy Andrew, Duke of York, the second son of Queen Elizabeth II, who attended social functions with her in New York. Maxwell introduced Epstein to Prince Andrew and the three often socialized together.
In 2008, Epstein was convicted of soliciting a minor for prostitution and served 13 months of an 18-month jail sentence. Details of a civil lawsuit made public in January 2015 contained a deposition from a woman, identified as 'Jane Doe 3', accusing Maxwell of having recruited her in 1999, when she was a minor, to have sex with Epstein.
19571695? ago
Sir Jimmy Savile the Establishment's Favourite Paedophile http://www.charliefoulkes.co.uk/truth/savile.html Jimmy Savile had friends in high places and friends in low places. An "everyman", if you like. He was the glue that held a lot of bad people together.
19571661? ago
Masons and their weird shit? https://archive.ph/pAT4E :
'Over the years, the Southside Masonic Lodge members developed their own initiation rituals for the social club in the lodge that set them apart from most other Masonic organizations, members said. ', "Orders like the Southside Masons seem more concerned today with Christmas parties and raising money for blood drives and children's charities than ritual.", "This is a mistake, not a criminal act. ''The Southside Masons are mostly middle-aged or retired men who come from middle-class backgrounds."
'Masonic leaders statewide were quick to disavow the incident, saying it was not Masonic custom to shoot guns at other members. ', "Late Monday night, police carried evidence and ritual objects out of the Masons' one-story lodge in Patchogue."
19581743? ago
and the Masonic Shriner is always trying to lure in the children @AllGoyim ? @Broc_Lia @somebody112 @Smallest_Skil f something goes from Asia to S.America to Haiti and Africa and London, Jerusalem, Rome runs everything? the Stone cutters, India, Arabia and 'Jimmy Savile' .... the Pyramid with the Burning Eye on Top?
19571715? ago
Each Country, Religion, Sexual Orientation, has its deep state Psycopath’s (it is estimated 1% of the population has the psycopathic mental disorder), these people have manipulated people on their way up the ladder and have sold out to the other psycopath’swho have already rose to prominence, all while laughing at the gullible masses (in their mind, “the Idiots”) https://voat.co/v/QRV/3227579/18693025
19571653? ago
Speak of News/Media .... and what does the Western Media do and spend so much on that weird propaganda? https://imgoat.com/uploads/84b6fbb107/195371.jpg the Kalergi Plan?
19571725? ago
https://voat.co/v/Elpis/3251891 Bilderberg Meeting 2019 - Meeting of The Psychopaths - YouTube
19571636? ago
There was a movie, ... London Has Fallen ?
19679346? ago
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19679251? ago
Epstein lived a block away from the human trafficking Qatari royalty. https://voat.co/v/AskAnon/3328057
19582120? ago
Approved many of the 9/11 hijackers entry into the US? Mason Shriner Brennan praises Islam in Arabic!!! islam founded by war monger pedophile jihadi who wanst the Destruction of Western Civilisation https://voat.co/v/QRV/3292786/19328501 The secret societies were created during the cruisades. Masons, Shriners, Knights of Templar etc... Listen to the Mystery Babylon series by William Cooper. He tells the whole story of it.
19571741? ago
https://voat.co/v/QRV/3288926 Two Grammy Winning Producers DEAD in 3 Days // I'm Sure It's All a Coincidence or Pop Music is tied up in Pizzagate, can't decide....