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4TheRepublic ago

"The natural place is here. It's your call Voat always has been and always will be, but maybe we could learn a bit from them, and them us. Think about it."

....

"I'm just going to say that the back and forth I've had tonight with subscribers of v/theawakening have been the most pleasurable I've had on Voat. (Maybe I have low standards or you're just good people). I'm voting to keep them. Can we Voat? You owe me this one!"

But does it matter?

I meant to ask you @PuttItOut... Where do I get information about contributing to Voat?

PuttItOut ago

It does matter. We are both targeted by the same people. We are in this together, us and you. Sound familiar? Voat may not be your first choice, and you aren't Voat's, but we share similar values and that very much matters. At least to me.

Every good friendship I've had in life was usually preceeded by an earlier conflict. There is a bond that happens when two different parties fight then resolve it. The conflict strengthens the relationship, much like various forms of stress strengthen the body.

In my small mind it would be a great conclusion to this if our teams came together as a whole. We will see, but I'm hopeful.

4TheRepublic ago

Fair enough... Except for the "...and you aren't Voat's [first choice]..."

Maybe it's attributable to my little patch of property on The Spectrum, but I STILL can't get my head around this.

(1) How can ""Voat"" determine that a person isn't its first choice?

(2) If one is a registered member of Voat, is one not ""Voat""?

(3) Is this nothing more than a mostly anonymous version of Survivor? Alliances formed. Plots enacted. Off the island! When the process is complete, everybody's gone but one.

Yeah. I don't get it. But that's OK. There might be some kind of conflict here. But I'm not fighting. I just want to understand ENOUGH to know what's happening...at least as it relates to me. Team? I didn't know I had a team.

Rock on. Live long and prosper.

@PuttItOut

VoatsNewfag ago

I assume you mean the autistic spectrum, I've been diagnosed with autism as a child. Though I still can grasp the concept of generalization and it's usefulness.

So here is unnecessary detailed, downright autistic answer:

(2) If one is a registered member of Voat, is one not ""Voat""?

Yes. Similarly, if one takes a photograph with a camera, one is a photographer. But if someone describes themselves as a photographer, we assume that they are a professional photographer, not someone who just once made some photos. Technically almost everyone is a ""photographer"", but only some people are photographers.

It is a similar principle. Yeah, technically you're "voat" after making one comment, but at the same time you're not, not really. Just technically.

(1) How can ""Voat"" determine that a person isn't its first choice?

The same way that any other community or arbitrary group of people can make a choice. For example men decided that the gym is the first choice to better their appearance. Women decided that makeup is their first choice. Doesn't mean that there aren't men with makeup or women hitting the gym and not wearing any makeup.

Generalizations are not about technical accuracy, they are about pragmatism.

Generalizations and abstractions are how we make sense of the world. Every tree you encounter in your life is entirely unique. Every "cat" you encounter is entirely unique. It has it's own unique genetic makeup, unique colors, unique shape, unique personality. "Cat" is an abstraction. Imagine what life would look like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations - you wouldn't be able to function. It would render you useless as you would constantly try to make sense of the world and it's too complex for you to make any noticeable progress.

Some people think it's wrong to apply generalizations to human groups and communities, but I think that's nonsense. I will treat people wearing suits differently than people that have vulgar tattoos and piercings on their bodies. If I had to decide whether I sit next to a bunch of business man or a bunch of skinheads on a train, I'd choose the guys with the suits. And so does everyone who tells you that generalizing people is bad.

Generalizations have their faults and can be unfair to individuals, but we shouldn't try to get entirely rid of them or think of them as entirely bad. No matter what people in your life told you to believe.

(3) Is this nothing more than a mostly anonymous version of Survivor? Alliances formed. Plots enacted. Off the island! When the process is complete, everybody's gone but one.

Is this the reply to putt stating that conflict strengthen relationships? I'm not certain what you mean. Why would everybody be gone?

Anyway you can make friendship with someone after conflict because you can observe first hand how they treat people that are against them - are they still respectful? Are they fair, or do they distribute lies among your friends behind your back? Are they willing to resolve conflict or do they rather pretend nothing happened the next day?

Seeing someone in conflict tells you a lot about their core values and whether or not they're trustworthy.

4TheRepublic ago

DON'T trust me. Ever.

If you can abide by that, and accept that I don't trust YOU, ...THEN we MIGHT get along.

VoatsNewfag ago

DON'T trust me. Ever.

I will take your advise.

If you can abide by that, and accept that I don't trust YOU, ...THEN we MIGHT get along.

How would we get along if we don't trust each other?

4TheRepublic ago

@VoatsNewfag

I invite you to consider the freedom that arises from the absence of expectation; in this case, the expectation to trust. [Expectations are resentments waiting to happen.]

Thank you for your musings on my musings. A coincidental muse. You are helping me to increase my awareness. What a treat!

Have you read "True Believer" by Eric Hoffer?

"There is a fundamental difference between the appeal of a mass movement and the appeal of a practical organization. The practical organization offers opportunities for self-advancement, and its appeal is mainly to self-interest. On the other hand, a mass movement, particularly in its active, revivalist phase, appeals not to those intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but to those who crave to be rid of an unwanted self. A mass movement attracts and holds a following not because it can satisfy the desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy the passion for self-renunciation." - from Section 7

"A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business." - from Section 10



Now for the TL;DR version...

Imagine what life would look like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations - you wouldn't be able to function.

I don't have to imagine it ... I live it ... with the exception of the inability to function). And, yes, life beyond belief has occasionally impacted my function on many levels...primarily, though, it makes social integration difficult-to-sometimes-impossible.

[Keep this in mind... The only requirement for the success of a "religion" is that ENOUGH people pretend to believe the same things.]

It would render you useless as you would constantly try to make sense of the world and it's too complex for you to make any noticeable progress.

Your presumption is flawed. i.e.: Discarding generalization-dependence REQUIRES constantly trying to make sense of the world which RESULTS IN being rendered useless.

Rather than a willingness to look beyond accepted generalization, you prefer reliance on approved generalizations (conventional prejudices?) to make sense of the world for you. I don't try to make sense of the world. I long ago realized that such a thing is beyond my ability.

I'm going to stick with Einstein on this one:

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly."

I suspect that you don't wish to be treated with the kind of dismissive generalizing that you suggest everyone else in the world ought to embrace. But if you dared to step outside the parameters that are foggily established (?) by your thought leaders for your thought followers, you would be treated poorly by them all.

If your understanding (?) of/for "noticeable progress" is in a social or religious context (as in "belonging" or having a following), then you are correct. This is not my idea of progress, nor do I desire a following.

Some people think it's wrong to apply generalizations to human groups and communities, but I think that's nonsense. I will treat people wearing suits differently than people that have vulgar tattoos and piercings on their bodies. If I had to decide whether I sit next to a bunch of business men or a bunch of skinheads on a train, I'd choose the guys with the suits. And so does everyone who tells you that generalizing people is bad.

You project your "belief system" on to others. You defend your beliefs to your satisfaction -- with doses of appeal to authority. But your authority is your own defense of generalizations through beliefs, examples, and understandings that you expect all others to embrace -- or imagine that they already do. Convenient...and effective -- HERE.

My guess is that you haven't ever been to any place where that kind of veneer won't protect you.

[Your vulgar-tattoo-vs.-guys-with-suits example is telling. Superficial. Good luck with that. To each his own.]

Generalizations have their faults and can be unfair to individuals, but we shouldn't try to get entirely rid of them or think of them as entirely bad. No matter what people in your life told you to believe.

Here's a generalization for you: All generalizations, based in Faith or conventional prejudice, that repel challenge, have faults and are always unfair to individuals...even the faithful ones. You espouse coercive collectivism, and apparently you are also willing to be subsumed by the collective. That's fine. You have plenty of company -- so you'll be all right...for a while.

I embrace organic collectives...involving awareness and a general acceptance of the reality of strength in numbers while recognizing and respecting the role of each member. I have no desire to collect followers or start a religion based on the premise that we should entirely eliminate generalizations...or to see them as entirely bad -- no matter what people in your life told you to believe.

(3) Is this nothing more than a mostly anonymous version of Survivor? Alliances formed. Plots enacted. Off the island! When the process is complete, everybody's gone but one.

Is this the reply to putt stating that conflict strengthen relationships?

No. But the principles apply.

I'm not certain what you mean. Why would everybody be gone?

Simple. Arguments and so-called conflict ... based in personality, and/or faith, and/or subterfuge ... will continue until all parties are destroyed, except one. Challenges to survival (real or perceived) will pressure all personality-, faith-, and dishonesty-based interactions or exchanges (often mistakenly referred to as relationships) to reveal differences...differences will result in further conflict...and eventually 'participants' succumb to the ultimate solution -- homicide. [Character assassination is just as real as homicidal assassination. They differ by degree but not in essence.]

Anyway you can make friendship with someone after conflict because you can observe first hand how they treat people that are against them - are they still respectful? Are they fair, or do they distribute lies among your friends behind your back? Are they willing to resolve conflict or do they rather pretend nothing happened the next day?

But is conflict NECESSARY for this/your kind of friendship? ...Only if we insist that it be so.

And why would we insist that it be so? ...Because we are addicted to drama.

Why are we addicted to drama? ...Because we live in a society that elevates personality over principle.

Why does our society elevate personality over principle? ...The short answer -- Because it can.

Seeing someone in conflict tells you a lot about their core values and whether or not they're trustworthy.

Trustworthy? Worthy of trust to do what, exactly? Comply? Regurgitate faith-based dogma? Save face at the expense of honesty and principle? Gain or maintain the illusion of acceptance by the leaders and followers of a sect?

Yeah. Um . . . no thanks. I'll stick with honesty, practicality, and principle -- things that nourish real friendship.

All the best to you and yours.

VoatsNewfag ago

I don't have to imagine it ... I live it ... with the exception of the inability to function)

I don't believe you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization

Wikipedia lists "animal" and "tree" as examples for generalizations. Do you really treat every tree in your life as a discreet object? As in, you don't believe that there are any observations that apply to all trees, for example "trees" are flammable?

What about animals? If I were to say that you shouldn't feed your cats raisins because they're unhealthy, would you accept that generalization of your cats body and biology or would you say that we don't know that unless we try, because maybe her biology is different from all other cats? Maybe she has a genetic mutation that makes her immune to raisins, therefore we shouldn't make assumptions?

Or how about generalizations about humans. Do you not think it's accurate to say that humans need water? It's a general statement about a group, it's a generalization to say that humans need water to survive.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

Isn't that a generalizations? A statement about a group of "great spirits"?

You tell me you live a life without generalizations but you yourself state that you want to stick with what is a generalization. You can't even write a reply without making use of generalizations.

Any statement you make about "great spirits" an assert is true for all of them is a generalizations. Albert einstein made a generalization right there.

But is conflict NECESSARY for this/your kind of friendship? ...Only if we insist that it be so.

Why would we insist that? I didn't insist that.

and eventually 'participants' succumb to the ultimate solution -- homicide.

That is a generalization, is it not? How do you know how the arbitrary group of "participants" will behave?

Why does our society elevate personality over principle? ...The short answer -- Because it can.

Isn't that a generalization of society?

In case you don't know what a generalization is, here are some definitions:

https://study.com/academy/lesson/generalization-lesson-for-kids-definition-examples.html

"A generalization is a statement that applies to a group of people or things, based on some examples."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generalization

"a general statement, law, principle, or proposition"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/generalization

"Taking something specific and applying it more broadly is making a generalization. It's a generalization to say all dogs chase squirrels."

"Scientists try to make generalizations based on research — the more data they have, the more accurate the generalization."

It is impossible to go through life without making use of principles and statements applied to groups. Science is based on generalizations - according to the dictionary. You are a fucking liar for pretending to be above generalizations.

Maybe you're thinking of stereotypes, which are a type of generalization. But they too can be reflective of reality.

4TheRepublic ago

I know my response was extensive. Apparently you missed this part:

I have no desire to collect followers or start a religion BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT WE SHOULD ENTIRELY ELIMINATE GENERALIZATIONS...OR TO SEE THEM AS ENTIRELY BAD-- no matter what people in your life told you to believe. (CAP emphasis added)

Thanks for your references -- especially the "generalization lesson for kids". Priceless. I have a dictionary, and I know how to use it.

Your belief...or lack of belief...in what I experience or write means nothing to anyone but you...and your leaders or followers. I respect that.

Wikipedia lists "animal" and "tree" as examples for generalizations. Do you really treat every tree in your life as a discreet object? As in, you don't believe that there are any observations that apply to all trees, for example "trees" are flammable?

Seriously?

You asked me to "Imagine what life would look like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations." I tried. Really. And I do not allow my perception to be restricted by abstractions or generalizations. Believe it...or not. I don't really care.

You persist...

You tell me you live a life without generalizations but you yourself state that you want to stick with what is a generalization. You can't even write a reply without making use of generalizations.

I did not tell you that I live a life "without generalizations". And you are correct, I made no attempt to sacrifice reasonableness for an extreme; i.e. totally avoiding generalization.

You are a fucking liar for pretending to be above generalizations.

True -- IF I had pretended to be above generalizations. I've read that "name calling is the last refuge of those who cannot logically disprove an opposing point of view."

The thing is, though, I have no desire to oppose you. If you want to discount, dismiss, or "disprove" me as I share my experience . . . rock on. You only show your desire to personally prevail. I get it. I have no desire to prevail. My desire is to become stronger, more aware, and accepting.

Thanks again for your help.

VoatsNewfag ago

Your belief...or lack of belief...in what I experience or write means nothing to anyone but you...and your leaders or followers. I respect that.

I'm not aware of any leaders or followers of mine, especially not during this conversation.

Apparently you missed this part:

Okay, you said that you have no interest in eliminating generalizations.

However before that you quoted me stating that "Imagine what life would look like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations" and you replied with "I don't have to imagine it ... I live it ..."

This suggests to me that you are currently perceiving the world without generalizations or you at least try to do so. You might have no interest in eliminating generalizations or to see them as entirely bad, but you try to live a life without perceiving generalizations.

And not just unfounded generalizations, baseless stereotypes etc. but simply generalizations.

Correct?

And I do not allow my perception to be restricted by abstractions or generalizations.

You made statements about society, aren't statements about society generalizations? Isn't society an abstraction? How do you know that your ideas about society are not restrictive? How do you know that your generalizations are not wrong and thus preventing you from seeing the truth about society?

I suspect that you don't wish to be treated with the kind of dismissive generalizing that you suggest everyone else in the world ought to embrace.

That's from your previous post but I want to add that I really do want to be generalized. Medicine works on generalizations. They test a drug among 10.000 people and than make a generalized statement about it's effectiveness and safety. I probably wouldn't be alive if it weren't for people generalizing me.

As a somewhat relevant sidenote "race" is also very important in medicine.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/why-mixed-race-minorities-struggle-to-find-life-saving-transplant-matches

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17144178

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1993074,00.html

I did not tell you that I live a life "without generalizations".

Yes, you did. I said "imagine a life were you try to not perceive generalizations...." and you replied with "I live that". This either means that you do not perceive generalizations or try not to perceive them.

Why did you quote a generalization if you try to "live life like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations"?

4TheRepublic ago

This suggests to me that you are currently perceiving the world without generalizations or you at least try to do so. You might have no interest in eliminating generalizations or to see them as entirely bad, but you try to live a life without perceiving generalizations.

And not just unfounded generalizations, baseless stereotypes etc. but simply generalizations.

Correct?

Not correct. At least not the way you ask -- mixing together "unfounded generalizations, baseless stereotypes etc." and "simpl[e] generalizations". Of course so-called simple generalizations are unavoidable, and (again) these are not the kinds of generalizations of which I have written.

Yes. I made a statement about society. And, yes, statements about society are generalizations. You got me. Does it make you feel better? Sometimes I generalize. I do not claim NOT to generalize...sometimes.

What is it about my dedication to avoiding unreasonable, premature, sometimes-harmful generalizations that bothers you? I'm just an old-dudefaggot who wants to see the forest AND the trees in the forest...and not just the forest. So shoot me.

It's not so much that I try not to live life without perceiving generalization...as you know, generalizing can be helpful. It is, however, that I am cognizant of generalizations, put them to use sparingly, respectfully, and with a readiness to dispense with them when circumstances dictate.

I totally understand your reluctance to move toward the center on this one -- being unwilling to let go of your view of generalizations as mostly inescapable and inevitable. I made it a long time at least partially relying on generalizations to make life easier for me. In the long run, I have come to see 'conventional prejudice' as restrictive -- not liberating.

How do you know that your generalizations are not wrong and thus preventing you from seeing the truth about society?

I don't know that my generalizations aren't wrong. Sometimes they are. And sometimes they DO keep me from seeing the truth about 'society' or groupings of people. But more importantly I KNOW that they have the very real potential of keeping me from seeing the truth about individual members of those groups. THAT is one of if not THE most important reasons that I don't capriciously rely on them.

...I want to add that I really do want to be generalized. Medicine works on generalizations.

SOME medicine works on generalizations SOME (perhaps most) of the time. IF you are alive because you fortunately fell into the group of patients who would otherwise not be alive without a particular drug therapy, I'm happy with/for you. But what would you say to the ___% of people who experienced mild-to-fatal side effects from the drug that kept you alive?

Due to some experience in a 'previous life', I once had the opportunity to examine a person who had situs inversus totalis -- a 1:10,000 event. The primary care doc didn't tell me what was 'wrong' with the patient before I started abdominal palpation and auscultation. I MIGHT have figured it out eventually, but doc and patient couldn't hold their laughter in while I searched for the patients liver on the right side of this abdomen -- which, in this case, was the wrong side of the abdomen. But it was an eye-opening experience for me. I kept using the 'general procedures', but was always ready to totally ignore what was 'expected' so I didn't miss something that might harm or kill a patient.

One more example from the 'rare side' and I'll get back to the regularly scheduled programming. I watched part of a PBS show the other night where a brain surgeon was doing brain surgery (and it actually WAS brain surgery). He had done all of his measurements in preparation for the removal of a tumor in the temporal area of the brain near the Broca area -- which is where speech is formed. The patient was conscious during the operation, because the doc wanted to do some FINAL testing/probing to determine PRECISELY where he needed to avoid cutting and possibly taking away...maybe forever...the patient's ability to speak. Turns out the patient's Broca area was 2cm away from where the doc's measurements indicated AND one would generally expect (there're those words again) to find it.

The short story... Generalization can and does help -- generally. But what do I do when it doesn't help? Why must I restrict myself to generalization at the expense of greater insight and acceptance?

Why did you quote a generalization if you try to "live life like if you tried to no longer perceive the world in abstractions and generalizations"?

Because I'm a fucking stupid piece of shit...that's why. (Does that help?) I tried to stay married (twice), but I didn't. I've tried to be the best dad and grandfather in the world, but I'm not. I've tried many times to break a 5 minute mile, but I haven't.

I do try to avoid lumping everyone into the same bunch, but sometimes I still do. And I'm going to keep on keeping on...living the best I can. Some people might not like the way I live, but that's okay, they have their own shit to deal with.

Thanks again...

pax vobiscum

VoatsNewfag ago

But what do I do when it doesn't help? Why must I restrict myself to generalization at the expense of greater insight and acceptance?

As I originally stated for pragmatic reasons. I haven't studied medicine but I believe that during an emergency you'll likely have to prescribe a patient some drugs and hope that they do not have a rare allergy or condition which would make it fatal.

And even if it's not an emergency we have to ask ourselves were we put our limited resources. How much effort would it take to develop custom made medicine for people to prevent these 1:10.000 cases and wouldn't it be more reasonable to put that effort into say cancer research or finding ways to deal with antibiotic immunity?

Maybe in the future we can afford custom made medicine based on dna samples and scans and it is something that we should strive for if feasible.

There is a cost to everything, even if it's just an opportunity cost, and there is also a cost to avoiding generalizations.

What is it about my dedication to avoiding unreasonable, premature, sometimes-harmful generalizations that bothers you?

There is nothing that bothers me about avoiding unreasonable generalizations. But what about reasonable generalizations? Some stereotypes and generalizations are reflecting reality.

Let's get back to generalizations about voat. I'll make the generalization that voat is a fairly racist place, simply because I've seen a lot of racist stuff here. Now let me see with what kind of evidence I can come up with to support that generalization:

/v/niggers currently has almost 9.000 subscribers. /v/theAwakening has 9.100 subscribers. Before the Q guys came along v/niggers would frequently reach the frontpage.

/v/TheDonald has 13.000 subscribers, however if you look at /v/theDonald/new you'll find that most posts on our trump community reach barely 20 upvotes. In contrast /v/niggers has frequently submissions that reach hundreds of upvotes and become the most popular submissions on the frontpage.

The reason that TheDonald has so many subscribers and yet is almost inactive is because their entire subreddit made an effort to migrate to voat and most users here drove them away. They came here, subscribed, proclaimed that they will take over voat and then after a day they run away as fast as they could. There are some similarities to the current Q migration.

Do you think that it would be fair to say that voat is more openly racist than tumblr, facebook and reddit? Perhaps even to say that is a openly racist place?

That doesn't mean that every voat user is racist and it doesn't mean that this isn't subject to change (it might happen if enough Q people migrate and stay), but it is a claim that is generally true and that evidence can be collected for or against. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that voat is a racist place.

And I think there are many other generalizations that can be made about voat that aren't unreasonable.

I do try to avoid lumping everyone into the same bunch, but sometimes I still do.

I think it's a good idea to treat everyone we meet in real life and have more than a superficial interaction with as an individual. For example I will treat everyone I reply to on voat as an individual, even though I have assumptions about voat as a whole.

But I think it's unreasonable to assume that stereotypes are wrong just because they're stereotypes and that they should be avoided as much as we can. Generalizations can help us to make reasonable decisions.

For example it's a generalization to say that single parenting is harmful for children. It could be prejudice however we can find evidence for that. Children from single mothers have increased suicide rates. https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20030123/absent-parent-doubles-child-suicide-risk

They're also more likely to become criminals, to become violent rapists or end up mentally ill. http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf Children are more likely to be abused and neglected (up to the point of death) by their mother. https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/cm2016.pdf

Economic factors probably play a role in this but as far as I know it holds generally true regardless of them. Spreading these information could help people make better decisions for their children.

It's obviously a generalization that isn't always true, sometimes single mothers can be fantastic and two parent households can be abusive - obviously. But generally the opposite is true.

These kind of generalizations can help us make better decisions that are generally true. I don't think there's much to gain by actively trying to avoid them. These are certainly facts that I will keep in mind once I have children.

Since we can't make 100% predictions about people and our future we must rely on incomplete information, make decisions that are generally beneficial to us and those around us.

I totally understand your reluctance to move toward the center on this one -- being unwilling to let go of your view of generalizations as mostly inescapable and inevitable.

The opposite extreme of your view would be trying to perceive the world ONLY in terms of generalizations and to never perceive the individual. Perhaps also to assume that all or most generalizations are true, even if they are just prejudice.

I perceive my position to be already very close to the center, maybe leaning slightly more towards one side, and yours as extreme.

4TheRepublic ago

I think it's a good idea to treat everyone we meet in real life and have more than a superficial interaction with as an individual. For example I will treat everyone I reply to on voat as an individual, even though I have assumptions about voat as a whole.

Well...looks like we agree on at least one significant matter. [However, I don't have assumptions about Voat in whole or in part -- but I'm slowing reaching some conclusions.]

I'd get into this a little deeper, but there is some real life stuff calling my name today.

Let me say this, though...I'm happy to discuss the 'racist' things with you, BUT in my world there is a big difference between racism or 'being racist' on one hand and on the other hand having curiosity or concern about issues that concern race. I don't yet know if Voat is 'generally racist' ... or if it's that Voat provides a forum where people can speak freely (for the most part) about their curiosities and concerns about issues involving race. This exemplifies one of my gripes about generalizing -- for far too long ideas concerning race (sex, religion, money, parenting, and children, among other topics) have been suppressed because of the generally accepted practice (conventional prejudice?) of labeling all talk of race as racist or racism.

Lots of meat in the rest of your response. I'll get back to you when I can.

If you're not familiar with the ideas, take a little look at correlation-causation and post hoc ergo propter hoc assertions.

Later...