1) Guns are a form of protection.
Shields, armour and helmets protect you. Guns shoot toxic pieces of lead into other people.
2) Guns are a form of self-defence.
They can be, sure. However, statistically speaking, more guns are used in crimes than are used in self-defence.
A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, found that criminal use of guns is far more common than self-defense use of guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
Obviously, potential criminals are going to purchase guns if they are legal. Therefore, you make a useless trade: increased personal protection for increased need for it. The only logical outcome of that trade is more people will die.
3) I don't trust the government.
If the government wants to get you, then your Dirty Harry handgun is not going to stop them. End of story.
4) A 100 lb woman shouldn't have to struggle with a 300 lb rapist.
But you can't arm the victim without simultaneously arming the rapist. So, instead of a rape occurring, which is consequently then investigated by the people whose job it is to investigate rapes, you have a bloodbath. Maybe the rapist gets killed, maybe the victim gets killed, maybe they both get killed, or maybe innocent bystanders get killed.
There are alternative ways to deal with rapists which are final, much safer, and do not end in loss of life.
5) Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Then it is a stupid idea to give them guns then, isn't it? Unless you are trying to make fucking sure.
Any thoughts?
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ShillBuster ago
Good post. Right to the point, for the most part.
I agree with the principle of your arguments, but my issue is a practical one. Asking Americans to give up their guns is like asking them to cut off their dicks. The gun industry is worth tens of billions of dollars in the US -- and that's just the declared profit, without counting the black market stuff. People tend to be a bit reluctant to give up that kind of money. Plus, arms dealers aren't necessarily known as being the most reasonable people anyway.
I'm surprised I got in first, tbh. Asking for, "any thoughts" is pretty much like showing a red rag to a bull.
MiMx ago
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
“Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour.” -- George Washington, Address to 1st session of Congress
Sonic ago
http://www.snopes.com/george-washington-gun-quote/
Second one is a real quote, but by C.S. Wheatly
MiMx ago
Among the many interesting objects, which will engage your attention, that of providing for the common defence will merit particular regard. To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.
A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a Uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies.
The proper establishment of the Troops which may be deemed indispensible, will be entitled to mature consideration. In the arrangements which may be made respecting it, it will be of importance to conciliate the comfortable support of the Officers and Soldiers with a due regard to economy.
-- George Washington
MiMx ago
“[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” ― James Madison
I'm here all day folks.
Sonic ago
Ok, I agree with you, but you shouldn't be posting misinformation. It undermines your point if someone can easily google and shoot holes in your argument.
carlinco ago
Which to me implies that the right to keep arms includes not only the light weapons allowed right now.
MiMx ago
George Washington saw the terror of tyranny, and the greatness of freedom. He saw, and lead good men to die for it to create one of the greatest republics ever. Not to mention his life, actions, and words counter almost every point every made (as well as the overwelming amounts of history) of the OP.
Over time governments gain power which they are slow, if impossible, to reliqish it. As these governments gain power it is important to have freedom over saftey, and one way to have freedom is through the threat of violence.
"It should be that man controls government, not that government controls man." - Gary Johnson
“Civil Wars happen when the victimized are armed. Genocide happens when they are not.” ― A.E. Samaan
JodaMAX ago
This is not a good post, it's the least thought out piece of anti gun rhetoric I've ever seen. How the hell did it get this far?
xeemee ago
bot/shill brigade
tribblepuncher ago
Bots, probably.
MiMx ago
“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.” ― George Washington
carlinco ago
What he's saying here is, get a job before you get guns. But if you do work hard, get guns, too.
piratse ago
Why does an 8 day old account that is saying the opposite of the average voater have +133 upvoats and -43 votes? That's a LOT from a 2 hour old post......... VERY sketchy. For example a recent Pizza gate thread with over 400 upvoats, the top comment has +49 votes....... Looks like a bot to me!!
guinness2 ago
I'm permanently in a state of surprise these days.
So tell me, if you believe that guns aren't a valid form of protection or self defense, do you think the American Military / Defense Force should stop using guns too?
What do you think is the most effective strategy to get gangs and crime syndicates to hand over their guns to the authorities?
How do you suppose a disarmed public should protect itself from a corrupt government / domestic enemies?
That last dot point is an important one - hypothetically: if Hillary Clinton was successful in committing widespread electoral fraud and ending our Constitutional right to participate in free elections with the intention of raping our country into a Mugabe-style corruption-driven dictatorship, how would a disarmed population defend themselves against her and her police and military once she owned us like chattel?
DoestThouEvenLift ago
I don't think it's a case of "belief". OP agreed that guns can be used for self-defence, but they just factually aren't a form of protection. Guns don't stop bullets, cars, planes or even flying squirrels from killing you.
Your question seems to be grounded in the circular reasoning that, since gangs probably won't want to give up their weapons, we should encourage gangs to buy weapons by legalising them. Imagine if we took the same attitude with murder? Gang members won't stop killing folks? Well, shit. Let's just legalise murder! Is that your plan?
There is of course a logical answer to your question, but I get the impression that you don't want to hear it. You simply slap large mandatory prison sentences on anybody found in possession of a gun. You give people five years for carrying a piece when they only get two for larceny and people will be throwing their guns at you.
Again, your question is based on the false reasoning that guns protect you from a corrupt government right now. Haven't you spent the last six months spamming Voat with tales about Hillary's "corruption"? Well, what have your guns done to stop it?
Fuck all is the answer you are looking for, my good friend.
kneo24 ago
Well guns do stop some things. No form of protection is 100% fool proof. If we go by the logic that it's not fool proof, why use any protection anywhere? It's a slippery slope. You use the means you have at your disposal.
Can you show any statistics that gang members get their guns legally? Is that a statistic that even exists? It's my understanding that a lot of them own guns illegally, and a large part of that is they do illegal things with those guns.
guinness2 ago
Incorrect.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people... and dead people don't shoot at me.
Also, if you think a gun can't stop a squirrel then you're a retard.
That's a silly contradiction. What you really meant to say is: "Let's legalize self defense!", but we don't need to because it's already legal.
Why wouldn't a government fear an armed population who is enraged by their corruption?
tribblepuncher ago
You aren't. That's the point. The government, under this model, is the sole user of force, leading individuals to be protected by words and words alone, in a country where freedom of speech is slowly choked to death in a manner where it technically still exists but your life is systematically destroyed if you try to exercise it.
Of course, we all know that and this is a shill account mass-dumping upvoats, so we really shouldn't be surprised.
8Hz_WAN_IP ago
He got in first because it is the same guy posting under an alt. This thread did not get upvoted organically.
Gorillion ago
Yep, saw the upvoats and title and instantly called bullshit once I saw it wasn't some kind of trick post. It's a legitimate "Doi! Gun Nuts. Ammiright!?" posting.
piratse ago
This thread has an abnormal amount of total votes. VERY suspicious.
CRKT_M16Z ago
2 day old account posting an anti-gun discussion submission on a right leaning website with nearly 200 upvotes when most post barely get 100.....
Totally not suspicious. /s
GrandpaPepe ago
Yea in such a short time period...
8Hz_WAN_IP ago
This is not the first thread to have some manipulation in recent days.
piratse ago
Don't worry, the admins are on top of it /s They REALLY need to hire people and take the advice of myself and other business minded voaters (we mailed him and/or posted in the announcement thread).
Ashra ago
with thunderous applause... (the retard cucks anyways)