Will weigh in with more later, but for now I do think you're right to open this conversation. Voat is compromised from within, i think that's clear. But there also seems to be a concerted, organized effort to flood pizzagate with random and completely meaningless posts (I FOUND A SPIRAL!!!!!) which are strangely all being upvoted by enough people that true leads and damning posts are driven from the front page, so most people will miss them if they only check in once a day. There's no way it's organic, and i find it highly questionable that these posts are allowed to stay, while good posts are being deleted sometimes 3 times in a row, with bs explanations, which frustrate people trying to help with this investigation, to the point of giving up. All of these symptoms were planned.
It really is time to talk about doing something new, to talk about taking a proper and sober assessment of what we've got going on here, and moving forward with our original goal in mind. That goal was never to obsess over every high school teacher or local City Council member who is a pedophile, nor to obsess over creepy symbols in music videos. It seems obvious they're playing with us, actually giving us fodder for v/pizzagate with the Soros-funded Bill Nye episode. They're playing us like a fiddle. What do we know about this game? Nothing. We are innocent and new to this world, just wanting to help the children. They are well versed in manipulation and lies. I think the best thing to do is to stop telling ourselves we can conduct a proper pizzagate investigation using v / PG. Until we admit this, we will keep seeing more of the same. And indeed it is very frustrating. We're smarter than this. We should be able to adapt, and move on to something that works. That's the last thing they want. There is no reason to believe this can't be done, there are too many committed people who simply aren't going to give up. Some of us have watched The Franklin Case and then Hampstead be covered up, and just aren't going to sit by and watch it happen again. So let's figure something out!
I agree w/ most of your comment, but vehemently disagree with:
We are innocent and new to this world, just wanting to help the children. They are well versed in manipulation and lies. I think the best thing to do is to stop telling ourselves we can conduct a proper pizzagate investigation using v / PG.
You put yourself in a box when you say "proper investigation". This forum is outside the box by definition. We simply need to do what regular Joe's have been doing since forever: Innovate. Experiment. Find out what works. Stop with the defeatist outlook.
My question is can it be done within the framework of v/pizzagate? I think I'm being realistic - it isn't working and it's only getting worse. Have you seen today's submissions? Nothing to do with pizzagate. None have anything to do with the Podesta emails, no one is looking into Pegasus. All of the submissions, as per usual lately, are about widening the scope until we are just talking about anything remotely to do with pedophilia anywhere in the world. No one seems to be doing any investigation, or following leads.
When you say innovate, experiment, do you mean keep trying to work within v / PG? What would you recommend as an example? I guess this thread is one example.
If we were to stay here, one change that could fix this is to tighten our scope and get serious about the rules for submissions, and then for the investigators to downvote submissions that are better suited for v/pedogate so that PG can FOCUS. I believe we've been infiltrated and this is the last thing they want us to do. I don't see much support for the idea of getting serious and getting back to our roots, though. When I've suggested it, I get shouted down instantly.
We don't know yet. I think "yes". I agree that the focus was blown weeks ago, but since the beginning, most folks understanding of "investigating" was limited to obscure goog search results with the main players' names attached. Lot's of awareness posts; few investigative posts.
A few brave goats purportedly attempted local DC footwork with questionable results and more risk than I was comfortable with. We all highly suspect these people kill to protect themselves so the line between bravery and foolhardy was thin.
I am a strong advocate of pizzagate and pedogate having a wide enough overlap to be one thing, but if pizzagate stays true to it's origins, it's only looking at the activities and
relationships of just a few high profile folks in DC. After you dig up all the public records
for those folks, what's left?
Footwork.
That can't be planned in the open as your subjects would be alerted to the op. In the meantime, /v/pizzagate can be our honeypot. Pick a detractor and try to figure out which person, organization or whatever sent them here and for what purpose? Frankly, if there is no push-back then it may be that they feel secure in their counter intelligence efforts.
I certainly don't recommend anyone do anything in person, besides protests. But i don't agree that we've reached the end of the amount of research we can do via computer and putting our heads together. There will be that day, but i think we were thwarted prematurely. The first few months of PG were a whirlwind, and then the attacks started with media and the false flag shooting, then the Alex Jones psyop. Since the shooting incident, the narrative and focus has really been in their hands, not ours. If we took it back and ignored them, went back to our roots and looked at what we have, and what is missing, I think it could really be rewarding.
What I'm not particularly interested in, is a whole new line of investigation, though i can see how it could be interesting for others. The idea of finding out who is trying to infiltrate is too long-term to satisfy me. As well, it again leaves them in charge of our focus. They would have fun with that. There is no limit to how much they can mess with us, and we might find it interesting to chase leads but it will ultimately lead no where, certainly not to saving children.
I'm thinking maybe an "Occam Chart". Column 1, point by point, breakdown the allegations. Column 2, for each point present the reason and evidence for the allegation. Column 3, the razor, what is the most likely answer (and is usually the defense position when one is presented). Column 4, the reason and evidence given in support of the defense. Column 5, possible counterpoints or evidence collected against the defense data in column 4.
Column 4 is the important one as it contains actionable points to collect data for. Column 5 shapes the investigations of Column 4 items and may result in actionable refutation of evidence. The more granular you can make Column 1, the more detailed and usable the data collected.
Here's an example:
Wikileaks emails with "pizza maps". It's too easy to accept the razor's position: it's actually a map with pizza places marked. How would you "disprove" that? Well, the Occam Chart would generate points of study, once theories are presented. It would be a lot of work, and it would take a while. It would be really easy in vee eye ess eye oh, but I don't know how to "format" something like that in this forum structure.
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V____Z ago
Will weigh in with more later, but for now I do think you're right to open this conversation. Voat is compromised from within, i think that's clear. But there also seems to be a concerted, organized effort to flood pizzagate with random and completely meaningless posts (I FOUND A SPIRAL!!!!!) which are strangely all being upvoted by enough people that true leads and damning posts are driven from the front page, so most people will miss them if they only check in once a day. There's no way it's organic, and i find it highly questionable that these posts are allowed to stay, while good posts are being deleted sometimes 3 times in a row, with bs explanations, which frustrate people trying to help with this investigation, to the point of giving up. All of these symptoms were planned.
It really is time to talk about doing something new, to talk about taking a proper and sober assessment of what we've got going on here, and moving forward with our original goal in mind. That goal was never to obsess over every high school teacher or local City Council member who is a pedophile, nor to obsess over creepy symbols in music videos. It seems obvious they're playing with us, actually giving us fodder for v/pizzagate with the Soros-funded Bill Nye episode. They're playing us like a fiddle. What do we know about this game? Nothing. We are innocent and new to this world, just wanting to help the children. They are well versed in manipulation and lies. I think the best thing to do is to stop telling ourselves we can conduct a proper pizzagate investigation using v / PG. Until we admit this, we will keep seeing more of the same. And indeed it is very frustrating. We're smarter than this. We should be able to adapt, and move on to something that works. That's the last thing they want. There is no reason to believe this can't be done, there are too many committed people who simply aren't going to give up. Some of us have watched The Franklin Case and then Hampstead be covered up, and just aren't going to sit by and watch it happen again. So let's figure something out!
oftotc ago
I agree w/ most of your comment, but vehemently disagree with:
You put yourself in a box when you say "proper investigation". This forum is outside the box by definition. We simply need to do what regular Joe's have been doing since forever: Innovate. Experiment. Find out what works. Stop with the defeatist outlook.
V____Z ago
My question is can it be done within the framework of v/pizzagate? I think I'm being realistic - it isn't working and it's only getting worse. Have you seen today's submissions? Nothing to do with pizzagate. None have anything to do with the Podesta emails, no one is looking into Pegasus. All of the submissions, as per usual lately, are about widening the scope until we are just talking about anything remotely to do with pedophilia anywhere in the world. No one seems to be doing any investigation, or following leads.
When you say innovate, experiment, do you mean keep trying to work within v / PG? What would you recommend as an example? I guess this thread is one example.
If we were to stay here, one change that could fix this is to tighten our scope and get serious about the rules for submissions, and then for the investigators to downvote submissions that are better suited for v/pedogate so that PG can FOCUS. I believe we've been infiltrated and this is the last thing they want us to do. I don't see much support for the idea of getting serious and getting back to our roots, though. When I've suggested it, I get shouted down instantly.
oftotc ago
Can it be done...
We don't know yet. I think "yes". I agree that the focus was blown weeks ago, but since the beginning, most folks understanding of "investigating" was limited to obscure goog search results with the main players' names attached. Lot's of awareness posts; few investigative posts.
A few brave goats purportedly attempted local DC footwork with questionable results and more risk than I was comfortable with. We all highly suspect these people kill to protect themselves so the line between bravery and foolhardy was thin.
I am a strong advocate of pizzagate and pedogate having a wide enough overlap to be one thing, but if pizzagate stays true to it's origins, it's only looking at the activities and relationships of just a few high profile folks in DC. After you dig up all the public records for those folks, what's left?
Footwork.
That can't be planned in the open as your subjects would be alerted to the op. In the meantime, /v/pizzagate can be our honeypot. Pick a detractor and try to figure out which person, organization or whatever sent them here and for what purpose? Frankly, if there is no push-back then it may be that they feel secure in their counter intelligence efforts.
V____Z ago
I certainly don't recommend anyone do anything in person, besides protests. But i don't agree that we've reached the end of the amount of research we can do via computer and putting our heads together. There will be that day, but i think we were thwarted prematurely. The first few months of PG were a whirlwind, and then the attacks started with media and the false flag shooting, then the Alex Jones psyop. Since the shooting incident, the narrative and focus has really been in their hands, not ours. If we took it back and ignored them, went back to our roots and looked at what we have, and what is missing, I think it could really be rewarding.
What I'm not particularly interested in, is a whole new line of investigation, though i can see how it could be interesting for others. The idea of finding out who is trying to infiltrate is too long-term to satisfy me. As well, it again leaves them in charge of our focus. They would have fun with that. There is no limit to how much they can mess with us, and we might find it interesting to chase leads but it will ultimately lead no where, certainly not to saving children.
oftotc ago
I'm thinking maybe an "Occam Chart". Column 1, point by point, breakdown the allegations. Column 2, for each point present the reason and evidence for the allegation. Column 3, the razor, what is the most likely answer (and is usually the defense position when one is presented). Column 4, the reason and evidence given in support of the defense. Column 5, possible counterpoints or evidence collected against the defense data in column 4.
Column 4 is the important one as it contains actionable points to collect data for. Column 5 shapes the investigations of Column 4 items and may result in actionable refutation of evidence. The more granular you can make Column 1, the more detailed and usable the data collected.
Here's an example:
Wikileaks emails with "pizza maps". It's too easy to accept the razor's position: it's actually a map with pizza places marked. How would you "disprove" that? Well, the Occam Chart would generate points of study, once theories are presented. It would be a lot of work, and it would take a while. It would be really easy in vee eye ess eye oh, but I don't know how to "format" something like that in this forum structure.
V____Z ago
This is perfect.
@pizzalawyer @YingYangmom @bopper are you aware of this thread?
bopper ago
Now I am. Thank-you.