There was a response to that on the ProtonMail subreddit. They explained it and clarified. Idk what's true but I do know ProtonMail is still better than yahoo, Gmail, or outlook/Hotmail. Tutanota besides having a difficult name to spell out over the phone when ordering stuff, is located in Germany. Germany is probably the country I trust the least in Europe right now.
There was a response to that on the ProtonMail subreddit. They explained it and clarified.
They've already attempted to explain it, which led to more digging, and is what lead to researchers eventually finding they they share a fucking CEO. There are only two possible options here:
Their story is consistent, in which case the above link is a better source (the source from their original confrontation), or
They changed their story, which renders anything they say that contradicts their first story invalid.
Reminder that their first story was already proven invalid: they first stated that they were entirely separate entities, then it was slowly proven over time that they share offices/infrastructure and Tesonet even signs their crypto certs (so no, your data isn't protected from them via encryption).
Idk what's true but I do know ProtonMail is still better than yahoo, Gmail, [...]
This is attempting the lesser of two evils fallacy. Worse, it isn't lesser at all - merely different heads of the same Hydra.
Tutanota [...] is located in Germany. Germany is probably the country I trust the least in Europe right now.
It is a logical impossibility to prove any option safe unless you have direct control or oversight over it. The only option that can be known to be safe is to roll your own and deal with the accompanying 'problems' ("problems" in quotes as the difficulties seem to be designed to discourage independent email hosting from ever becoming a thing).
The only way you can talk yourself into using one webmail over another is through lesser of two evils.
Did you read the link? He writes a novel claiming that 'the stories are false', and then turns around and admits they are true. I'll pull the relevant bits here.
First, before presenting anything that could pretend to be evidence, he tells you what to think:
There's some false info out there about ProtonVPN, and these stories were first fabricated by Private Internet Access, a competitor who has been feeling pressure from ProtonVPN lately. [Editor's note: character assassination doesn't discredit the evidence]
This is not the first time one of our partnerships has been inaccurately portrayed [...]. The truth however, is less interesting than the conspiracy theories might have you believe.
Then he turns around and establishes everything that has been proven.
-> They have been colocated and used the same administration/infrastructure:
"(it would not have been possible to source local candidates, handle HR and payroll, understand local regulations, etc, without outside assistance). We worked with Radix (Macedonia) and Tesonet (Lithuania) to accomplish this. Tesonet in particular was selected since they are one of Lithuania's largest tech companies (and we already knew them)."
Note how they logically linked the need to use Tesonet to handle their own admin and legal bits. No evidence was provided that the story was false - instead he gives excuses for why it is true.
->They shared employees:
"Similarly, the ProtonVPN Android keystore mistakenly lists Tesonet as the organization name, since our Android developer was at that time formally employed through Tesonet."
Again, he provides excuses in lieu of contrary evidence. Whether or not it is mistaken doesn't affect the facts, disregarding that it wasn't actually mistaken.
He admits "Swiss" ProtonVPN/mail is actually located in Lithuania, but outright lies about who is a subsidiary of who:
The entities we use today in Skopje and Vilnius are both subsidiaries of our corporate entities in Switzerland.
Remember, there is no lie he can tell to explain this away; anyone can check the business registries for themselves. The Swiss entity is wholly owned by PROTONVPN IAB, which is Lithuanian.
Further, because traffic passes through Lithuanian datacenters, their "no-logs" claim is false by definition. Lithuanian law requires 6 months of data retention. There is no lie they can tell to explain this away either.
The rest of the post falls apart pretty easily. E.g:
Proton does not share any employees (or company directors) with Tesonet. This is also a verifiable fact.
Though this may be technically true on it's face (or may be a lie like most of the rest of this), they have shared employees in the past, and this is also a verifiable fact.
Here is the reddit post I was talking about where they address it. It seems reasonable to me but to each his own opinion.
There is no new information in this link that wasn't covered in the original confrontation I linked you prior. Further, his post was full of excuses with no evidence (and a few easily-proven lies). Facts aren't a matter of opinion - these crooks are objectively intertwined with a datamining company.
In a long blog post , a BestVPN.co website editor embarked on a long demonstration to highlight the links between Protonmail and a Lithuanian data mining company, Tesonet, based in Lithuania. The editor puts forward several elements to justify these accusations: on the one hand, ProtonVPN and Tesonet share the same premises for their headquarters, a building located in Vilnius.
The companies also share several employees, as well as the same CEO: Darius Bereika. According to the writers of BestVPN.co, Bereika is both listed in some registers as both the head of Tesonet and founding member of the entity Cyber Alliance, a company behind ProtonVPN. In addition to these similarities, the writers of BestVPN.co point out that the ProtonVPN mobile application uses a certificate signed in the name of Tesonet, proof according to them of the close links between this data mining company and the secure messaging provider.
The demonstration is worth the detour: with the help of accusatory headlines, Godwin point and typographic emphasis, the authors of BestVPN.co attempt to demonstrate the close links between Protonmail and the company Tesonet.
The survey uses a post published on the Hackernews website, a community-based website for publishing articles related to new technologies, which reported that Protonmail had a Lithuanian entity sharing premises with Tesonet, and left to hear in passing that the service NordVPN was also in the hands of the company Tesonet, without bringing this time of conclusive element.
And all this argument ends with an eloquent end point from the writers of BestVPN.co: "Note: People who are already looking for an alternative to ProtonVPN can visit our site for secure VPN services. This has the merit of clarifying the intentions of the author: the site BestVPN.co offers comparisons between different providers of VPN services. ProtonVPN does not appear in their search results.
Protonmail admits working with other human beings
As wobbly as it may seem, the publication of this argument was enough to sow doubt among Protonmail and ProtonVPN users, who called on the developers. The company was forced down the arena (understand: Reddit and Hackernews) to explain.
In several messages, Protonmail explains the situation : Protonmail has indeed several partnerships with companies, including Tesonet. In 2015, faced with the difficulties posed by Google including Protonmail has sought cheap labor in several countries of Eastern Europe: Lithuania, the Czech Republic and Macedonia were the places chosen for put this plan in place.
In the absence of a seat in these different countries, Protonmail has made agreements with these partners: they have recruited employees to work on Protonmail technologies. "Although our first recruitments in Vilnius and Skopje were working full time on Protonmail, they were on paper used by our local partners because we did not have a structure that could do it," says Reddit one of the founders from Protonmail.
He goes on to explain that following the resolution of the problems encountered by Protonmail in 2015, the company was able to open two subsidiaries in Macedonia and Lithuania in order to take under its wing the employees recruited through these partners.
However, Protonmail said that "for historical reasons, some connections to our local partners remain": the certificate signed on behalf of Tesonet in the Protonmail application is an error due to the fact that at the time of registration of the application, the developer responsible for its design was legally employed by Tesonet. "Because of the operation of the Google Play Store, it is impossible to change this mention, but it remains under our sole control. "
Protonmail is therefore facing a wave of misinformation and does not hesitate to cite its origin: competition. Protonmail emphasizes that the site BestVPN.co is owned by the company PureVPN, a VPN provider and that the initial information published on Hackernews and taken over by the editors of the site comes from the head of another competing service based in the United States, Private Internet Access. Charges that are difficult to verify as well, but that say enough about the wonderful atmosphere in the consumer VPN industry.
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kalgon ago
https://protonmail.com/about
Try the free version, it's limited in scope but then if you need a pro use there are affordable pro offers
Interface is rather nice, but there's no auto login feature/"remember me", because that's a security flaw to them
skywalker7777 ago
https://voat.co/v/whatever/2683626
h o n e y p o t
boggle247 ago
There was a response to that on the ProtonMail subreddit. They explained it and clarified. Idk what's true but I do know ProtonMail is still better than yahoo, Gmail, or outlook/Hotmail. Tutanota besides having a difficult name to spell out over the phone when ordering stuff, is located in Germany. Germany is probably the country I trust the least in Europe right now.
What email service do you use?
alele-opathic ago
So much is wrong with this post.
They've already attempted to explain it, which led to more digging, and is what lead to researchers eventually finding they they share a fucking CEO. There are only two possible options here:
Reminder that their first story was already proven invalid: they first stated that they were entirely separate entities, then it was slowly proven over time that they share offices/infrastructure and Tesonet even signs their crypto certs (so no, your data isn't protected from them via encryption).
This is attempting the lesser of two evils fallacy. Worse, it isn't lesser at all - merely different heads of the same Hydra.
It is a logical impossibility to prove any option safe unless you have direct control or oversight over it. The only option that can be known to be safe is to roll your own and deal with the accompanying 'problems' ("problems" in quotes as the difficulties seem to be designed to discourage independent email hosting from ever becoming a thing).
The only way you can talk yourself into using one webmail over another is through lesser of two evils.
boggle247 ago
Here is the reddit post I was talking about where they address it. It seems reasonable to me but to each his own opinion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/
alele-opathic ago
Thank you for the link.
Did you read the link? He writes a novel claiming that 'the stories are false', and then turns around and admits they are true. I'll pull the relevant bits here.
First, before presenting anything that could pretend to be evidence, he tells you what to think:
Then he turns around and establishes everything that has been proven.
-> They have been colocated and used the same administration/infrastructure:
Note how they logically linked the need to use Tesonet to handle their own admin and legal bits. No evidence was provided that the story was false - instead he gives excuses for why it is true.
->They shared employees:
Again, he provides excuses in lieu of contrary evidence. Whether or not it is mistaken doesn't affect the facts, disregarding that it wasn't actually mistaken.
He admits "Swiss" ProtonVPN/mail is actually located in Lithuania, but outright lies about who is a subsidiary of who:
Remember, there is no lie he can tell to explain this away; anyone can check the business registries for themselves. The Swiss entity is wholly owned by PROTONVPN IAB, which is Lithuanian.
Further, because traffic passes through Lithuanian datacenters, their "no-logs" claim is false by definition. Lithuanian law requires 6 months of data retention. There is no lie they can tell to explain this away either.
The rest of the post falls apart pretty easily. E.g:
Though this may be technically true on it's face (or may be a lie like most of the rest of this), they have shared employees in the past, and this is also a verifiable fact.
There is no new information in this link that wasn't covered in the original confrontation I linked you prior. Further, his post was full of excuses with no evidence (and a few easily-proven lies). Facts aren't a matter of opinion - these crooks are objectively intertwined with a datamining company.
boggle247 ago
alright, let's assume you're correct. What email provider do YOU use?
boggle247 ago
Okay. Say it's all true. What provider do YOU use then?
kalgon ago
I'm sure it's worse than google /s
https://www.zdnet.fr/actualites/protonmail-une-attaque-frontale-mais-bancale-d-un-de-ses-concurrents-39871021.htm
mad_saxon ago
Holy shit that is an interesting thread. Thanks goat, that needs to be bumped!