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23142976? ago

You cannot tell me that the entire health care industry on the front lines of this thing are lying. We know our jobs. That would mean every doctor, every nurse, every health care officer, every scientist, every researcher, and every lab technician are all in on the "hoax." And if we are not involved in a "hoax", you are therefore accusing us of being stupid. We know this is not the seasonal flu. You can think whatever you want, you have a right to your opinion, but you are wrong.

23143010? ago

Instead of emotional outburst, why not refute the article. Let us know exactly WHY the writer is wrong.

Most of us are open to intelligent debate, but nobody is interested in your attempt at emotional strong arm tactics.

23145129? ago

I think the poster is writing from personal experience within the healthcare field. When you think about it, do you know how hard it would be to actually fake something like this? The poster is right, virtually everyone in the healthcare field worldwide would have to be in on it. It isn't the tests, it's the increasing number of sick and dying in a short period of time.

23143681? ago

I want to say first that I apologize for what sounded like an outburst. I work in health care and we are fighting hard. Although some areas are fighting the battle harder than where I am located, we are all taking this very seriously. If the reports are true that this is a weaponized Coronavirus, there still may be some unknowns we have yet to deal with. We cannot afford to manage this outbreak any other way than what we have been doing because we do not get a do-over if we are wrong.

Anyone who has become extremely ill from a SARS type respiratory infection when they recover can sometimes have very debilitating after effects from the infection. This is documented from previous outbreaks of SARS and MERS. In addition, the information we have been receiving is telling us that this infection can be spread in the absence of symptoms unlike normal influenza and the common cold which are spread at the beginning of infection – usually a couple of days. COVID-19 seems to be different in that a person can spread the virus prior to becoming sick. Until we have proof that this is not the case, we have to operate given the information we have at this time.

With regard to the first article cited:

“The following is from a medical forum. The writer, who is a widely respected professional scientist in the US, prefers to stay anonymous”

Okay, so this is one person’s opinion and everyone is entitled to an opinion but they are giving us nothing more than that opinion.

“The few actual novel Coronavirus cases do have some worse respiratory responses, but still have a very promising recovery rate, especially for those without prior issues.”

True, but that does not mean these patients are sick from influenza or the common cold. We are seeing cytokine storms in patients who are extremely ill unlike normal strains of influenza. Any respiratory viral infection is going to have worse outcomes in patients, who are older, have weakened immune systems, or comorbidity factors.

Some of the symptoms of COVID-19 and Influenza are the same but there are some symptoms that are slightly different. As time goes on we are learning more about what those differences are. Here is one for you. Some of the patients report a loss in taste and smell prior to becoming really sick. That doesn’t happen with the flu or a cold. Those symptoms develop sometimes after a person becomes sick. These differences allow us to come to a clinical diagnosis along with laboratory testing. This is what medical diagnosis is based on.

“We are testing people for any strain of a Coronavirus, not specifically for COVID-19”

Incorrect. The test kits are testing specifically for SARS-CoV-2 which is the Coronavirus responsible for COVID-19. Some of the kits first developed were faulty, but those problems have been corrected. (There could have possibly been some funny business going on there, I will admit.)

“The CDC has developed a new laboratory test kit for use in testing patient specimens for severe acute respiratory syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes COVID-19. The test kit is called the “Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time Reverse Transcriptase (RT)-PCR Diagnostic Panel.”

Also in development is a serological test.

“The serology test will look for the presence of antibodies, which are specific proteins made in response to infections. Antibodies can be found in the blood and in other tissues of those who are tested after infection. The antibodies detected by this test indicate that a person had an immune response to SARS-CoV-2, whether symptoms developed from infection or the infection was asymptomatic. Antibody test results are important in detecting infections with few or no symptoms.”

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/testing.html

The writer of the article does not put much faith in either PCR or serological testing as a means for detecting the presence of pathogenic microorganisms. Check for viral load may be useful but transmission is of more concern.

SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load in Upper Respiratory Specimens of Infected Patients

“These findings are in concordance with reports that transmission may occur early in the course of infection and suggest that case detection and isolation may require strategies different from those required for the control of SARS-CoV. How SARS-CoV-2 viral load correlates with culturable virus needs to be determined. Identification of patients with few or no symptoms and with modest levels of detectable viral RNA in the oropharynx for at least 5 days suggests that we need better data to determine transmission dynamics and inform our screening practices.”

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2001737

RNA viruses have RNA for their nucleic acid – not DNA.

The first challenge of sequencing a Coronavirus genome is that it's made of RNA rather than DNA. Most of our tools for working with nucleic acids are specific to DNA. Fortunately, we've discovered an enzyme called "reverse transcriptase" that takes RNA and makes a DNA copy of it—transcription is the copying of DNA into RNA; this enzyme does the opposite, hence the name. (Reverse transcriptase was first identified in other RNA viruses that need to be copied into DNA as part of infection.) Using reverse transcriptase, researchers were able to make DNA copies of parts of 2019-nCoV as a first step to studying its genome.

“But reverse transcription of samples from infected individuals would simply create a mess of DNA fragments from everything present: the patient's own cells, harmless bacteria, and so on. Fortunately, DNA sequencing and analysis techniques have become so advanced that it's now possible to just sequence the whole mess, irrelevant stuff and all, and let computers sort out what's present. Software is able to take what we know about the average Coronavirus genome and identify all of the fragments of sequence that look like they came from a Coronavirus. Other software can determine how all these fragments overlap and then stitch them together, producing a near-complete Coronavirus genome.

To make a diagnostic test specific to 2019-nCoV, researchers had to look for areas of its genome that don't change rapidly over Coronavirus evolution but have changed enough in this branch of the family that they can be viewed as its distinctive signature. Those sequences can be used to design a means of amplifying a piece of the 2019-nCoV genome using a technique called the polymerase chain reaction, or PCR.”

For more information on the process read: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/how-does-one-test-for-coronavirus-anyway/

Multiplex Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) detection offers a highly sensitive and specific method of respiratory virus detection and is quickly replacing culture and DFA as the gold standard. In addition to sensitivity and specificity, benefits of multiplex PCR testing include the ability to obtain the results in hours and demonstrated ability to detect more than one viral infection (co-infection) in a patient specimen. Emerging evidence suggests patients with viral co-infections have increased disease severity and more complex clinical management. The ability to know whether there are coinfections to deal with is valuable in treatment planning. A viral load test will not give you that information.

And for the second article cited the statement is made by a software and telecommunications engineer that “Furthermore, there is no proof that a virus causes disease.”

Tell that to someone who is infected with HIV or any of the flavors of Hepatitis. Once again, this is just an opinion.

Both of the articles provided much in opinion and very little in factual evidence. So, until someone can show some hard evidence that what we are doing is wrong and that we are treating the flu, we will continue to take this seriously to protect the public. There is much more I could post here, but I will leave it at this.

23148638? ago

Well, thanks for providing some input. Regardless what anyone thinks, my search is for the truth, whatever that is.

The second article in my OP addresses most of the issues you raise, IMO. You have dismissed that article because the writer is not in the full-time profession of biology. Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. The CDC and some other sources you cite are questionable, as well. The focus should be on the substance presented, not on the presenter. IMO, he self-credentials with his writing.

According to both writers, PCR tests do not identify COVID-19 (or, more accurately -- as you noted -- the SARS-CoV-2). If true, then it does not matter who thinks it is a "gold standard." If it does not identify the virus, then it is not of any significant value.

There are agendas and agendas-within-agendas in all of this.

Just looking for the truth.

23148918? ago

I will not fault you for looking. There are a variety of ways to come at a diagnosis. We cannot rely completely on the testing. Much of what we do, if we are any good, relies on our own instincts and experience as clinicians. Tests can be faulty and give you bad answers. It all has to be taken together in context. The people you site are people with opinions. I do not put them down, nor you, for having an opinion. I just don't happen to fully agree. But, that is my opinion.

All of this craziness is rocking some foundations. We know there is something not right here. But, as health care providers we can only do what we are trained to do given the information that we have. People's lives depend on us making the right decisions. If I have been fooled, then I have been fooled. The good Lord will not kick me out because of it.

23144135? ago

I'm looking for "I'm a doctor/nurse and in our hospital we usually have 50 admissions a day and now we're having 100"

Or usually we have 50 deaths and now we're having 200 a week

It seems the medical staff are panicked and believe every hospital is overflowing except their own.

Thanks for your input and good luck.

23151889? ago

These are a couple of "real" ER clinicians on the front lines. These videos are produced for ER physicians to exchange information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=156&v=vEXQjeSFDoY&feature=emb_logo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=ZTfqzRWNa2U&feature=emb_logo

One of the problems many are noticing is the lack of ED patients period. Even those with non COVID emergencies are not coming in. The media has succeeded in scaring the crap out of everyone to the point they are not coming in for care. This is concerning. Those who are showing up are often very ill and the window for successful outcomes is extremely diminished. Just something to consider that may explain the low numbers in some areas that really have not been hit. That to me means that whatever the DS swamp pewks tried to throw at us we may have dodged due to the actions of POTUS. If we can keep the breakout contained it will pass.

23144302? ago

Thank you. I appreciate it. Where I am is a smaller area. We have a few cases but nothing very serious to date. Colleagues from California, especially SoCa are saying they are seeing some more serious cases and deaths - but then again they are dealing with a much sicker overall demographic when you consider the homeless. These are usually the larger metropolitan areas with much denser populations. If it stays confined to those areas, peaks and then goes away, we will have done good. Our POTUS is to be thanked for helping us dodge that bullet IMHO.

I will tell you, the media certainly has not helped the situation. Everyone with a runny nose thinks they have COVID. That for me has been one of the biggest drains on energy and supplies. Never underestimate the combination of stupidity driven by fear.

There is a lot of hype but at the same time we are dealing with a real illness. Hurricanes are real events even though they do not live up to the media hype at times. What we don't want is a Katrina event. My real concern is that if this is a bioweapon, which I believe it is, we have some unknowns. Anything that comes out of China is not to be trusted. I would much rather take some precautions than to just ignore things. You cannot put it back in the box once it's out.

I don't trust many things that are pushed at us as health care providers and I do question my share of things. But, we don't get to take it back if we make the wrong decision. I don't blame anyone for questioning the situation. I can only relay what I know personally. And if it seems medical staff are panicking, maybe it is because we understand all too well the ramifications of a real pandemic and how quickly things can spiral out of control. Good luck to you too - however this thing turns out.

23143866? ago

Thank you for your detailed and well written response. While it's clear we are dealing with "something" that has real life consequences (at least for some), the official story CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT be believed. First and foremost, the CDC and FDA both have a long, provable history of lies, corruption and deceit. Why should we be'lie've anything THEY tell us?

23152195? ago

100% spot on.

23144003? ago

I agree with you. A real situation can always be used to create something much larger and much worse than what it really is. I am on the front line in dealing with real life and death scenarios. I did not want that fact to be lost. There is much more to this than any of us know at this point. But someone who is sick is not a hoax. That is reality and the sick bastards that are behind this need to burn in hell. Just remember, we are all trying to do our best given the information we have. Those of us in health care who are directly working with patients do not have the luxury of questioning the validity of what is happening in front of us. We do not get a repeat if things do not go well. That is where we have to learn to trust our own clinical skills and instincts. Thank you.

23148776? ago

But someone who is sick is not a hoax.

On that point, we can agree 100%. I have a skeptical view of most doctors and nurses in today's medical industry, primarily because almost all of them will claim that nutrition is not very relevant to health. They also want to disassociate health issues within the body, making each illness or condition separate and apart from the body as a whole. They are trained this way. Doctors are given very little nutrition training in medical school, and then it is drummed into them once they start practice that certain "truisms" simply exist, and don't question the system.

VERY few doctors are independent thinkers. Intelligent, yes. But independent thinkers, no.

As someone noted in this thread, doctors tend to take what Big Pharma and their administrators tell them as gospel and do not question things like test kits, and they do not know for sure how they work.

If doctors were really on top of their game in the year 2020, the population would not all be on meds. Blame it on the population all you want, but clearly the current medial industry is not set up to achieve good health, and the fact that almost all doctors lack a sense of intellectual curiosity is the primary reason why.

They have a lot to lose if they buck the system. And they don't.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon him not understanding it."

- Upton Sinclair

23151113? ago

Just a view into a world most do not see. A good doctor trying her best to do the right thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=156&v=vEXQjeSFDoY&feature=emb_logo

Very true of those who are in areas where people are getting sick. I think some of the reason many hospitals are empty is once again the press has scared the crap out of the people to the point that they are not coming in even for non COVID related emergencies because they are afraid. Then when people do come in they are very sick. I am hearing reports from clinicians all over that are seeing the same thing. Even the normal emergencies we would expect to see are down. We are concerned that people are not seeking the care they need. This is one of those unexpected consequences to this whole mess.

23149030? ago

I try to take it all in. As a clinician, I want to do what is best for my patients. I am a firm believer in complementary medicine and that at times makes it hard to operate. When you do not adhere strictly to the party line it can be dangerous. Some of us just keep our heads down and deal with our patients the best we can. With most of us, our intentions are honorable and we only want to do the right thing. I do not push meds if there is another way. But, that can get you in trouble and some have lost their licenses for coloring outside the lines. It is a delicate dance and the ACA made it even harder to do the dance. Our work is even more scrutinized than before.

I appreciate what you have to say and I understand your apprehension. Good. Keep questioning everything - no matter how much alphabet soup someone has behind their name.

23149441? ago

I assume you are not the "standard issue" if you are hanging out on this forum.

WWG1WGA

23149566? ago

Thank you. I appreciate that. I try.

23143779? ago

If the reports are true that this is a weaponized Coronavirus,

Is this an "official" possibility that is being considered openly by health professionals, or is it labeled a "conspiracy theory" and is therefore a topic that is mostly taboo?

23145434? ago

"Is this an "official" possibility that is being considered openly by health professionals, or is it labeled a "conspiracy theory"'.

To you, which scenario that you stated above, would be considered to be more truthful? Having a corrupted, useful idiot, establishment "professional" say its real, or having those same folks say its a conspiracy theory? After watching this media and DS debacle over the last few years, I know which one is more truthful to me.

23143823? ago

It is being discussed, but not officially.