Shame on you for pressuring @Mick to mod me... He knows I'm a shitty mod. I also mostly agree with this post. The 3 system sub maximum is in the best interest of voat. <3
For now, until it is moderator-less, L2's are a must in defaults so that they can put updates to rules and whatnot in the sidebar with CSS, at least one anyway. I think that there needs to be at least one to oversee day to day management stuff so long as Admins aren't around on a daily basis. Look, we're never ever going to get away from the possibility that a mod is going to go rogue - that's just human being shit. But steps can be taken to mitigate that and we seem to be headed in that better direction.
Yea, I'm out of ideas on the current lvl 2 mods however if they cant recruit I have no problem with the good ones staying on personally. I might ping the active ones in later tonight to see what their ideas are and I'll give this thread another plug in v/whatever unless someone else does it first(hint to anyone). Thanks for the info and sorry to be brief, I'm flat out at work(or should be).
@Kevdude maybe add the above comment to the OP and Puttitout saying he'll make a post tomorrow?
Yes, thats how I saw it. Janitors were made specifically to isolate them from CSS and sidebar rules which is why they are such a good fit for system subs, imo. The only problem left to solve there is what to do with existing level 2's.
No, it's not the edit at fault for the missed ping, it's just I put an apostrophe in your name before the S for some reason which shortened it to fuzzyword.
I think that 3 defaults is plenty and I've stepped away from my MOD roles in both v/introductions and v/gifs. I've asked that PuttitOut pull me off of these while I test-drive this new L3/Janitor role, and I PM'd both @reacher and @amyacker of these subs to let them know that I'll be non-modding during this testing phase.
L2/Mod: leave this limit as-is, “(Rule 8) A user may not moderate (level-2) more than 3 @system owned 'default' subverses.”
L3/Janitor: create the limit to 3 at a time as well and make this position limited with occupancy at a maximum of two months.
L2 & L3: a user should occupy no more than a combination of 4 default subs at any one time; for example L2 on two defaults plus two L3 positions (with the caveat that this L3’s role has a time limit).
In the event the Admins choose not to impose a time limit on L3’s, then the max limit for any combination of L2 and L3 should be three.
L4/Designer: a user should occupy no more than one default sub at any one time, but this L4 should not count in a user’s “10 Subs Max” limitation
Non-Defaults:
L2/Mod: remains unchanged and part of the overall “10 Subs Max” limitation
L3/Janitor: remains part of the overall “10 Subs Max” limitation
L4/Designer: see below for a recommended change
L4/Designer:
With credit to @pembo210 for the idea on the recent announcement, I suggest that the new L4 role should be listed separately on a user’s profile and not be part of the “10 Subs Max” limitation. I would recommend that an L4 should be confined to a revised limit of maybe “5 Subs Max” at any one time, and as noted above no more than 1 default sub at a time.
There are tons of smaller niche subs that have multiple L2's and they all contribute and have fun in their contributions to the sub.
I think it's important to clearly distinguish that L2's on system subs only should not be able to invite other L2's, but that this could be perfectly acceptable on the niche subs.
That being the case, seems as though Admins need to create moderator levels for system subs and moderator levels for the rest of the site.
I'm torn on L2 mods adding other L2 mods. In some cases, it is extremely useful if the L1 is missing and more mod help is needed (example /v/ModernPowers). On the other hand, there is no accountability for who an L2 mod could add as another L2 mod - there are no logs of who added who, assuming the other user accepted the invite before anyone saw the invite on pending. If the L1 is MIA, then there is no way to remove a potentially toxic L2 new addition. It appears the L1 can add other L1 mods now, so it might be good to encourage subs to have two L1 mods to prevent the MIA issue.
For 2, I think the janitor guidelines seem fine. Should there be a limit to how many janitors an @system sub can have? That's probably my main feedback there.
For 3, I think there should be looser limits on how many subs you can moderate as an L4. There have been several amazing CSS designers on this site, and it would be a shame if they run through their 10 sub moderator cap quickly for volunteering to design the CSS for many other subs. Maybe if the L4 user moderates too many subs, then add a CSS approval process for L1 and L2 mods to verify before the CSS gets pushed. That could prevent toxic behavior, but that might be too much work for relatively little gain. Right now some people get around that by just creating alt accounts to do CSS only on certain subs.
1st point: In non-default subs, if the L1 is gone, you can request the sub by someone who is active, to solve that problem. Or, as you said, appoint more than one L1. In system subs, we don't often change mods, so waiting on the admins is not a significant problem.
2nd: I'm not sure if a limit is needed for spam-hunters. As long as they are being overseen, I can't see them getting much damage done before being handled. But I wouldn't oppose a limit either.
3rd: Completely agree. There is no need for restrictions on L4. They can not do any real damage, and good CSS guys can be hard to find sometimes. So if one is willing to spread there time across a number of subs, I can't see anything wrong with that.
If you're demoted from L2 to L3, you will not have access to CSS, and L2's need the access to note sub updates and whatnot in the sidebar. Having been an L3/Janitor for a few days now, no CSS access and no Sidebar access.
What if one(or two) of you was a janitor and one level 4(or any mix of these two positions). Would you still be able to run the sub as a team like this? @Innocentbystander@violentlight
I am not opposed to the idea. But there are some issues to address.
THC is right that we need access to the CSS. He handles the day-to-day stuff like user flair, and changes to post flair. But I handle the page CSS. It doesn't often need changing, but occasionally does. There was a bug/change in Voat, a while back that caused the CSS to stop displaying correctly. If I hadn't been able to access the CSS, we would not have had a fix up within an hour of the CSS breaking.
I think ViolentLights point should not be overlooked either. The balance we have between the three of us has served us well. I think we would continue the same if one of us was a higher level than the rest, but I wonder if it would have an effect on how other subs are run.
When one person is at the top, they tend to feel like they are the chief, and get final say.
Ultimately, I think if we can find a way around the CSS problem, it can work.
I don't think it is as good a system from a perspective of ease of use, but it is a more secure set-up against malicious mods.
Yea, hopefully some more people with ideas come up with something. I'm just throwing random ideas around now and with a bit of thought they have holes in them.
I only mod this one sub. Actually, 2. I forgot I made a joke sub. I think our mod team works well. What I like about it, is we keep each other in check. We keep all our actions and decisions in /v/videosmodtalk. When you create a rank with only one at the top, it naturally promotes that the high rank gets final say.
I honestly don't know if we just have a rare case of mod team. But I like how in controversial discussions, there is normally one of us with a difference of opinion. Helps us see the issue from all sides. That discussion and debate is the center of free speech.
I'm so sorry if this is a mess. I'm doing this from my phone. I'm terrible at Voat on my phone.
Do any of you have alts that you could make a level 4 to do CSS? That way you could all be lvl3 and just paste any CSS changes into v/videotalk and have the alt do it.
That seems like a tricky practice to start. I would prefer to know who is the mod of a sub. Going into a sub, seeing a list of 7 mods down a ranked list, only to find out there are actually 3 people behind that list of mods. Its harder to track. I don't like the idea of alt account modding.
I became a mod because I was really upset with what happened at Reddit. I figured since I was bitching about it so much, I should do something to help preserve what we have created here at Voat. I desperately don't want to see Voat fall to censorship like Reddit has. But I think that alt-account modding can be abused and would make it harder to keep the modding transparent.
These changes, while I appreciate what they are trying to do, at the same time I don't want them to make people let down their guard. I don't want people to look at the janitor rank and treat it like it could not have an affect on a sub. These ranks are a nice attempt to create limits. I just don't want us to let our guard down simply because they are called "janitors" now.
These changes, while I appreciate what they are trying to do, at the same time I don't want them to make people let down their guard. I don't want people to look at the janitor rank and treat it like it could not have an affect on a sub. These ranks are a nice attempt to create limits. I just don't want us to let our guard down simply because they are called "janitors" now.
Yep, janitors can still delete any comment even though it will be easier to call them out based on their new mandate.
Using alt to get around the restrictions kinda defeat the point of restrictions doesn't it? It could be seen as a bad precedent, or abuse.
I wonder if it would be possible to make someone both an L3 and an L4 mod? That might work, but without looking shady.
True. I actually thought about your idea and it would be ideal but I didn't want to mention it because I have no idea if it's possible programming wise.
At first glance this looked like a tiered system where level 3 would have all the powers of lvl 4 + some others but @fuzzyword's post seems to indicate different.
janitors to have access to the subs css
Absolutely not and no sidebar access to make rules or change the guidelines of the sub either especially on system subs.
Thanks for the ping, Kev. Here’s my take on a couple of items…
L2/Moderator:
This role should probably not be automatically dropped to L3/Janitor status as this new L3 role doesn’t have access to the CSS: Accessing CSS becomes important to get to the sidebar to note rules changes, links to other subs or sites (such as alternatives to imgur), and important updates or messages to the sub.
It looks like L2’s are able to add but I think they should also be able to delete the new L3/Janitors & L4/Designers: this postion is already one of great trust granted by Atko and PuttitOut on the system subverses, and even by L1’s of the smallers subs; allowing L2's to manage the sub as has been entrusted to them only helps the subverse and the L1. Are there risks to this, sure; but just because a few bad apple people in the past fucked it up doesn't mean that we halt all forms of entrustment, otherwise, why bother with L2's at all. Further, allowing L2’s to add & delete L3 & L4 is going to be vital to allow for addressing CSS changes, L4/Designer, and for adding any new L3/Janitors as they come and go (more on this further down).
L3/Janitor: this is my new role on the three default subs; here’s some first hand experience so far to give everyone an update:
I have the permission to access applying post flairs but I cannot create them. This has become important as I am able to:
Flair the spam post so that users see, just before the deletion, that I have seen the spam and I’m working on getting it deleted, and
Visibility in the Deleted Log, displaying the “Reason” for the deletion
When a post is deleted, the title + submitter of the post is copied and pasted into a comment; this comment is then “distinguished” to reflect a moderator-type action. The submitter/username is currently stripped when a post is deleted; I have followed this procedure for many months in v/introductions as I want there to be absolutely no question as to who’s post it was that was deleted
Attention Item: when more L3/Janitors get added, the L1 or L2 for the subverse will need to/should add a post flair to their CSS, with the recommendation that it be added as .linkflairlabel so that the flair is visible whether a Voater has their CSS enabled or disabled (I’m going to create a post in v/CustomizingVoat for the steps to accomplish this)
Note that “applying post flairs”/access to “Flair Management” could be a permission that gets removed when the “Reason for” deletion descriptor becomes available system-wide for moderators
I have the permission to but have not deleted any spam comments
I have the permission to but have not banned any spam-accounts
I had the permission to and did create the “Ad Spam” post flairs for these of the three subs when I was initially assigned this new L3/Janitor role; this was the only moderator-type action performed (a minor CSS addition so that it appears with/without a user having CSS turned on) and, I no longer have this permission (the permission was removed when PuttitOut went live with changes to the moderator levels last night)
I suggest that this L3/Janitor role should not be permanent, but come with a term limit of one or two months at a clip; I see no problem with a user resuming the role and being a Janitor again at a later date for any number of times desired (assuming he/she hasn't been booted from the role).
I also am of the opinion user should have no more than Three L3/Janitor assignments at any one time (it’s plenty, I can tell you from these few days of experience already!)
This thread is where it is being addressed. As far as I can guess @Puttitout has been unaware that level 2 mods can recruit other level 2 mods and is just now realizing that the problems caused in v/askvoat and v/ niggers along with the Blablagabor alt fiasco were all caused by this(I hope). Thats why he asked kevdude for this thread and also to ask about limitations on the new roles as well.
My original comment, regarding the trust issue, still pertains to the original L2's who got modded; needing to clarify tho that I read between the lines from PuttitOut's comments in the announcement thread that he was going to prevent L2's from modding other L2's. Once that's done, L2's should be able to add L3's & L4's as needed as they each now perform very separate functions.
I'm not sure about lvl 2 being able to add as many lvl 3 as they want. Lvl 3 can still delete comments and we are relying on their goodwill that those comments will only be spam.
Also, an L3 doesn't need to be on a for a set amount of time: I'm thinking that an L3 might be helpful to an L1 (non system sub) if an L2 goes on holiday or is out on illness, then when the L2 returns, L3 can be dismissed. By extension, on default, if there's two L2's in there now and one takes leave for a month, a temp-L3 could be very helpful to the sub.
Speaking of L2's, the exception should remain that v/Whatever should never get an L2, only an L3. Being the L3 on v/whatever for just a few days now, I don't want to jinx it, but I think that the amount of spam has decreased; there are still some waves, but I find myself less busy in there already. Hoping this is a good trend.
They should leave it the way it is. If a owner doesn't want someone to add mods they can make the mod a janitor level. There should always be a level only slightly below owner with full permissions in case of an emergency
If the janitor level solves this on system subs and let's the owners choose on other subs this I'd be happy with it. It's silly for the admins to say they are scared of people fucking up system subs being the reason why they held off on helpers for so long then continue to allow level 2's to invite anyone they please. There's also the v/niggers situation to ponder but if that can be solved by only having janitors if those people arent fully trusted, then it's all good.
Well then you appoint level 2 mods on FPH and allmods on system subs are janitors. You wouldnt even have to hop on your alt Penis Wizard for that. The only thing that leaves to be solved is what to do with current existing L2 mods on system subs but you don't care about that, as you said.
People are only trying to close a loophole that has been exploited. Its an accident that has been happening and will happen again if that loophole isnt closed. Its also allowing people to stack up system subs with their friends and alts currently. That us a huge problem because it means mods can test abuse almost idefinitely. They can push the line on their alts with the risk of their removal by admins, If they are removed they have their main as backup and are free to add another alt to push the rules again. Janitors that cant recruit as level 2 mods is one solutions or maybe making system subs a separate class coding wise is another solution.
Except level?3(janitor) already can't add new mods... There is literally no point in adding restrictions. Just add more sets or a proper permission system.
L2 system mods don't need the ability to add new L2 mods. In over a year, we've only had to change the modlist once in /v/videos, so waiting on admins for that would be fine. But, L2 mods should be able to add L4, and maybe L3 mods. If a sub wants to bring someone in to help with css, there is no need to have to wait on admins.
Dropping existing L2 mods to L3. I'm not against it, but there are some questions that need to be cleared up. Can an L3 mod still access/change the css? And who then decides who gets added as a janitor? Is that something that the admins would have to handle for every system sub, or are the janitors going to be added by existing mods? If so, then at least on L2 mod will be needed.
Preventing adding new mods by level 2 should be a no brainer. No one has bought up any decent argument so far it except maybe a level 1 will go on vacation or down the track a sub may be busy enough to need it. We have had 3 big incidents where letting level 2 mods recruit other levels 2 mods has caused huge issues. For some reason it has stayed a "feature" for the last 14 months despite the trouble it has caused and barely any benefit.
Limits on subverses by mods and janitors need to be 3 at least till Voat as a community gets used to having these janitors around and seeing if they stick to just spam after a stretch of "ownership" of the sub.
Janitor status for system sub mods unless I see a good argument why they need to be level 2.
L0 / [Voat Owners] Atko and Putitout and maybe a limited number of others when hired
L1 / Owner : Can add/remove/clean/graphic/everything
Maximum 3 permitted L1 per sub. This is to slow the ability of hostile takeovers because the original owner can only be bumped if the other two agree.
In order to stop churn, L1 can only add/remove 1 person in a 3 month period. This should also encourage people to take L1 seriously and work at being a good L2 for a long enough time to make it boring for the low effort trolls
L2 / Mod : Doing it for the community. Cannot add equivalent level mods, can add L3 only, can remove L3 only
Can delete posts, block spam. A person must be L2 for 6 months minimum before having the ability to apply for L1 roles
L3 / Janitor : Can only block spam, distinguish content only.
Nothing more
L4 / Designer : Able to access stylesheet and modify flairs only.
Basically, the only person who can add/remove mods of all levels is Level 0 (atko/puttutout) and L1
L2 mods have no more power than to overuse the ban hammer, which L0 and L1 can deal with directly.
The entire issue with reddit etc is the priveledge escalation hack, simply remove that ability and we allow the community to self regulate by simply not participating in subs they don't want to.
A sub with no participation is the sole fault of the L1 group.
Putting time requirments on roles makes it much harder to pull stupid crap and also makes comunity leadership have confidence because of the implied stability in the management group.
If enough people complain about an L1 user the L0 team have a method of removing them without killing a verse, due to two other L1's being present, and a long list of L2's who can step up.
*I'm only slightly drunk, so if it has flaws etc boo hoo
Yea it may be a hard pill but if it comes to that to keep the peace on Voat it may be worth the sacrifice. Anyway let's see what everyone else says, I feel like I've hogged enough of the convo already.
I may be slightly biased in this, as I am partially trying to argue a way where Cynabuns' current moderator setup won't need to be trimmed down, even if later Janitors are blocked from matching Cynabuns' stats
I love Cynabuns to bits but no, everyone needs to have the same rules applied. I think @Cynabuns would agree on that.
That can work. Maybe the new rules don't have to be retrospectively applied to current mods and the users can have input as to how many they want to keep on each sub? Personally I'll be requesting demotion or resigning completely if someone is happy to delete the spam on v/sports every day. I havent put a lot of thought into it besides being adamant allowing level 2 system sub mods to add whoever they want is ridiculous and a mess waiting to happen and wanting a limit on subs modded across all levels.
is this going to end up with 99 mod levels down the road?
Putt is apparently going to be adding another level tomorrow to accommodate subs that set the 'only authed users can post' setting (which i support)
but how far could this go? surely more new roles/levels will be added at some point
i think a different method by which users can assign roles might be more flexible and require less work (coding), whereby, when you add a user, you individually select the permissions you want to grant them - this covers all the bases and perhaps somewhat future-proofs the system insomuch as you don't have to keep hard-coding in new levels
POST DELETE BAN CSS FLAIR etc...
USER X X X
@PuttItOut - possible suggestion on an alternative method to handle permissions and new mod levels without having to re-code
I totally agree, granular control of permissions is the ideal, but a lot of new code would have to be written to implement it, hence why we went the route we did. We only had 1 days to dev, test, and deploy this change.
I also think the janitors/level 2's etc should have a hard limit of subs they can mod. 3 for lvl 2's as it's always been and some limit on the janitors as well (preferably 3 as well).
ok, agreed, no l2 on system subs... and on number 1... hard cap on system subs per user, agreed... 3, i'd say maybe 2 down the line... and on the final point, i'd say, janitors can't add new mods...
i see in another way, janitors that can flag for removal only with no other powers.
I think the main thing is that no level 2 mod should be able to invite another Lvl 2 mod in a system sub. If there are no level 2 mods in System subs then that would solve the issue as well. I would also like to see the promise PuttitOut made long ago about user input being developed put into practice as a philosophy going forward. Shit has happened and he hasn't had time to code things like that and might not for a while. That's understandable and fair enough but at least lets stop the ability of current lvls mods on System subs being able to invite whoever they want on what is supposed to be community owned subverses. Let's have the users choose a few of these janitors maybe, even if it's just nominating users with admin final approval or vice versa, in an informal setting. Lets involve the community in some of the decisions going forward, even if it's just small things, wherever possible so that no one is blindsided and no one can say dodgy shit transpired.
I'm not sure if lvl3 and 4 can with the new rules which is why I didn't mention them but definitely they should be restricted from inviting. Lvl 2 and down. Also I think because he's done a lot of hard work is why we need to dot all the i's this time so there's no risk of some one intent on ruining voat getting on a system sub so easily and it's something they don't have to go back to. Do it right this one time.
Faustian ago
Shame on you for pressuring @Mick to mod me... He knows I'm a shitty mod. I also mostly agree with this post. The 3 system sub maximum is in the best interest of voat. <3
Mick ago
Haha, enjoy!
Mick ago
NP
Mick ago
Oh, ok. Consider it done :)
Mick ago
cbf'd
Disappointed ago
Good idea and I think I'll start on a list of Mods again so everyone can see who is active and inactive on the system subs.
Disappointed ago
Night.
jobes ago
Well then, thanks @Puttitout and @kevdude. Thanks for helping Make Voat Great Again!
Cynabuns ago
Thanks for noticing; it was a horrid mess, will be for a while longer I think too. G'night.
Cynabuns ago
For now, until it is moderator-less, L2's are a must in defaults so that they can put updates to rules and whatnot in the sidebar with CSS, at least one anyway. I think that there needs to be at least one to oversee day to day management stuff so long as Admins aren't around on a daily basis. Look, we're never ever going to get away from the possibility that a mod is going to go rogue - that's just human being shit. But steps can be taken to mitigate that and we seem to be headed in that better direction.
jobes ago
That is good to hear. Thanks Fuzzy :)
Disappointed ago
Yea, I'm out of ideas on the current lvl 2 mods however if they cant recruit I have no problem with the good ones staying on personally. I might ping the active ones in later tonight to see what their ideas are and I'll give this thread another plug in v/whatever unless someone else does it first(hint to anyone). Thanks for the info and sorry to be brief, I'm flat out at work(or should be).
@Kevdude maybe add the above comment to the OP and Puttitout saying he'll make a post tomorrow?
Disappointed ago
Yes, thats how I saw it. Janitors were made specifically to isolate them from CSS and sidebar rules which is why they are such a good fit for system subs, imo. The only problem left to solve there is what to do with existing level 2's.
No, it's not the edit at fault for the missed ping, it's just I put an apostrophe in your name before the S for some reason which shortened it to fuzzyword.
Cynabuns ago
I think that 3 defaults is plenty and I've stepped away from my MOD roles in both v/introductions and v/gifs. I've asked that PuttitOut pull me off of these while I test-drive this new L3/Janitor role, and I PM'd both @reacher and @amyacker of these subs to let them know that I'll be non-modding during this testing phase.
Cynabuns ago
Subverse Occupancy Limits
Defaults:
L2/Mod: leave this limit as-is, “(Rule
8) A user may not moderate (level-2) more than 3 @system owned 'default' subverses.”L3/Janitor: create the limit to 3 at a time as well and make this position limited with occupancy at a maximum of two months.
L4/Designer: a user should occupy no more than one default sub at any one time, but this L4 should not count in a user’s “10 Subs Max” limitation
Non-Defaults:
L2/Mod: remains unchanged and part of the overall “10 Subs Max” limitation
L3/Janitor: remains part of the overall “10 Subs Max” limitation
L4/Designer: see below for a recommended change
L4/Designer:
With credit to @pembo210 for the idea on the recent announcement, I suggest that the new L4 role should be listed separately on a user’s profile and not be part of the “10 Subs Max” limitation. I would recommend that an L4 should be confined to a revised limit of maybe “5 Subs Max” at any one time, and as noted above no more than 1 default sub at a time.
pembo210 ago
that's what I was trying say, thanks :)
Cynabuns ago
Welcome :)
Love your CSS work!
Cynabuns ago
There are tons of smaller niche subs that have multiple L2's and they all contribute and have fun in their contributions to the sub.
I think it's important to clearly distinguish that L2's on system subs only should not be able to invite other L2's, but that this could be perfectly acceptable on the niche subs.
That being the case, seems as though Admins need to create moderator levels for system subs and moderator levels for the rest of the site.
Disappointed ago
I was on medication last night so I was bit high, lol.
mamwad ago
Perhaps they should be able to add (and maybe remove) Janitors and Designers, but not L2.
jobes ago
I'm torn on L2 mods adding other L2 mods. In some cases, it is extremely useful if the L1 is missing and more mod help is needed (example /v/ModernPowers). On the other hand, there is no accountability for who an L2 mod could add as another L2 mod - there are no logs of who added who, assuming the other user accepted the invite before anyone saw the invite on pending. If the L1 is MIA, then there is no way to remove a potentially toxic L2 new addition. It appears the L1 can add other L1 mods now, so it might be good to encourage subs to have two L1 mods to prevent the MIA issue.
For 2, I think the janitor guidelines seem fine. Should there be a limit to how many janitors an @system sub can have? That's probably my main feedback there.
For 3, I think there should be looser limits on how many subs you can moderate as an L4. There have been several amazing CSS designers on this site, and it would be a shame if they run through their 10 sub moderator cap quickly for volunteering to design the CSS for many other subs. Maybe if the L4 user moderates too many subs, then add a CSS approval process for L1 and L2 mods to verify before the CSS gets pushed. That could prevent toxic behavior, but that might be too much work for relatively little gain. Right now some people get around that by just creating alt accounts to do CSS only on certain subs.
InnocentBystander ago
1st point: In non-default subs, if the L1 is gone, you can request the sub by someone who is active, to solve that problem. Or, as you said, appoint more than one L1. In system subs, we don't often change mods, so waiting on the admins is not a significant problem.
2nd: I'm not sure if a limit is needed for spam-hunters. As long as they are being overseen, I can't see them getting much damage done before being handled. But I wouldn't oppose a limit either.
3rd: Completely agree. There is no need for restrictions on L4. They can not do any real damage, and good CSS guys can be hard to find sometimes. So if one is willing to spread there time across a number of subs, I can't see anything wrong with that.
Cynabuns ago
If you're demoted from L2 to L3, you will not have access to CSS, and L2's need the access to note sub updates and whatnot in the sidebar. Having been an L3/Janitor for a few days now, no CSS access and no Sidebar access.
Disappointed ago
What if one(or two) of you was a janitor and one level 4(or any mix of these two positions). Would you still be able to run the sub as a team like this? @Innocentbystander @violentlight
InnocentBystander ago
I am not opposed to the idea. But there are some issues to address.
THC is right that we need access to the CSS. He handles the day-to-day stuff like user flair, and changes to post flair. But I handle the page CSS. It doesn't often need changing, but occasionally does. There was a bug/change in Voat, a while back that caused the CSS to stop displaying correctly. If I hadn't been able to access the CSS, we would not have had a fix up within an hour of the CSS breaking.
I think ViolentLights point should not be overlooked either. The balance we have between the three of us has served us well. I think we would continue the same if one of us was a higher level than the rest, but I wonder if it would have an effect on how other subs are run.
When one person is at the top, they tend to feel like they are the chief, and get final say.
Ultimately, I think if we can find a way around the CSS problem, it can work.
I don't think it is as good a system from a perspective of ease of use, but it is a more secure set-up against malicious mods.
Disappointed ago
Yea, hopefully some more people with ideas come up with something. I'm just throwing random ideas around now and with a bit of thought they have holes in them.
Violentlight ago
I only mod this one sub. Actually, 2. I forgot I made a joke sub. I think our mod team works well. What I like about it, is we keep each other in check. We keep all our actions and decisions in /v/videosmodtalk. When you create a rank with only one at the top, it naturally promotes that the high rank gets final say.
I honestly don't know if we just have a rare case of mod team. But I like how in controversial discussions, there is normally one of us with a difference of opinion. Helps us see the issue from all sides. That discussion and debate is the center of free speech.
I'm so sorry if this is a mess. I'm doing this from my phone. I'm terrible at Voat on my phone.
Disappointed ago
Do any of you have alts that you could make a level 4 to do CSS? That way you could all be lvl3 and just paste any CSS changes into v/videotalk and have the alt do it.
Violentlight ago
That seems like a tricky practice to start. I would prefer to know who is the mod of a sub. Going into a sub, seeing a list of 7 mods down a ranked list, only to find out there are actually 3 people behind that list of mods. Its harder to track. I don't like the idea of alt account modding.
I became a mod because I was really upset with what happened at Reddit. I figured since I was bitching about it so much, I should do something to help preserve what we have created here at Voat. I desperately don't want to see Voat fall to censorship like Reddit has. But I think that alt-account modding can be abused and would make it harder to keep the modding transparent.
These changes, while I appreciate what they are trying to do, at the same time I don't want them to make people let down their guard. I don't want people to look at the janitor rank and treat it like it could not have an affect on a sub. These ranks are a nice attempt to create limits. I just don't want us to let our guard down simply because they are called "janitors" now.
Disappointed ago
Yea, you're right the alt was a bad idea.
Yep, janitors can still delete any comment even though it will be easier to call them out based on their new mandate.
InnocentBystander ago
Using alt to get around the restrictions kinda defeat the point of restrictions doesn't it? It could be seen as a bad precedent, or abuse.
I wonder if it would be possible to make someone both an L3 and an L4 mod? That might work, but without looking shady.
Disappointed ago
True. I actually thought about your idea and it would be ideal but I didn't want to mention it because I have no idea if it's possible programming wise.
InnocentBystander ago
I'm not familiar with Voat code, but it is probably not a significant difficulty.
Disappointed ago
At first glance this looked like a tiered system where level 3 would have all the powers of lvl 4 + some others but @fuzzyword's post seems to indicate different.
Absolutely not and no sidebar access to make rules or change the guidelines of the sub either especially on system subs.
Nesano ago
Just give the owner granularity in mod permissions. Look at what Discord did and you've pretty much got what I'd most desire.
Sidenote I'm impressed by your crusade against mod abuse. More people should be like you.
Cynabuns ago
Thanks for the ping, Kev. Here’s my take on a couple of items…
L2/Moderator:
This role should probably not be automatically dropped to L3/Janitor status as this new L3 role doesn’t have access to the CSS: Accessing CSS becomes important to get to the sidebar to note rules changes, links to other subs or sites (such as alternatives to imgur), and important updates or messages to the sub.
It looks like L2’s are able to add but I think they should also be able to delete the new L3/Janitors & L4/Designers: this postion is already one of great trust granted by Atko and PuttitOut on the system subverses, and even by L1’s of the smallers subs; allowing L2's to manage the sub as has been entrusted to them only helps the subverse and the L1. Are there risks to this, sure; but just because a few bad apple people in the past fucked it up doesn't mean that we halt all forms of entrustment, otherwise, why bother with L2's at all. Further, allowing L2’s to add & delete L3 & L4 is going to be vital to allow for addressing CSS changes, L4/Designer, and for adding any new L3/Janitors as they come and go (more on this further down).
L3/Janitor: this is my new role on the three default subs; here’s some first hand experience so far to give everyone an update:
Disclosure Detail: Here are the links to these three subs’ deleted logs: https://voat.co/v/whatever/modlog/deleted , https://voat.co/v/AskVoat/modlog/deleted, and https://voat.co/v/newsubverses/modlog/deleted
Disclosures to date:
I suggest that this L3/Janitor role should not be permanent, but come with a term limit of one or two months at a clip; I see no problem with a user resuming the role and being a Janitor again at a later date for any number of times desired (assuming he/she hasn't been booted from the role).
I also am of the opinion user should have no more than Three L3/Janitor assignments at any one time (it’s plenty, I can tell you from these few days of experience already!)
More to follow soon (work is nuts today).
Disappointed ago
No, any level 2 can invite another level 2 with no input from users or the admins. This includes system subs.
Cynabuns ago
I thought that this was being addressed?
Disappointed ago
This thread is where it is being addressed. As far as I can guess @Puttitout has been unaware that level 2 mods can recruit other level 2 mods and is just now realizing that the problems caused in v/askvoat and v/ niggers along with the Blablagabor alt fiasco were all caused by this(I hope). Thats why he asked kevdude for this thread and also to ask about limitations on the new roles as well.
Cynabuns ago
I see what you mean now.
My original comment, regarding the trust issue, still pertains to the original L2's who got modded; needing to clarify tho that I read between the lines from PuttitOut's comments in the announcement thread that he was going to prevent L2's from modding other L2's. Once that's done, L2's should be able to add L3's & L4's as needed as they each now perform very separate functions.
Disappointed ago
I'm not sure about lvl 2 being able to add as many lvl 3 as they want. Lvl 3 can still delete comments and we are relying on their goodwill that those comments will only be spam.
Cynabuns ago
Never said it should be unlimited :)
I'd say each L2 could bring on one L3, but this might need to be revisited once a sub hits, for example, 100k subscribers.
Disappointed ago
That could work.
Cynabuns ago
Also, an L3 doesn't need to be on a for a set amount of time: I'm thinking that an L3 might be helpful to an L1 (non system sub) if an L2 goes on holiday or is out on illness, then when the L2 returns, L3 can be dismissed. By extension, on default, if there's two L2's in there now and one takes leave for a month, a temp-L3 could be very helpful to the sub.
Disappointed ago
Exactly and another reason why level 2 doesn't need to recruit lvl 2 mods.
Cynabuns ago
Yeah, that L2 bringing on an L2 needs to go.
Speaking of L2's, the exception should remain that v/Whatever should never get an L2, only an L3. Being the L3 on v/whatever for just a few days now, I don't want to jinx it, but I think that the amount of spam has decreased; there are still some waves, but I find myself less busy in there already. Hoping this is a good trend.
HomerSimpson ago
They should leave it the way it is. If a owner doesn't want someone to add mods they can make the mod a janitor level. There should always be a level only slightly below owner with full permissions in case of an emergency
Disappointed ago
If the janitor level solves this on system subs and let's the owners choose on other subs this I'd be happy with it. It's silly for the admins to say they are scared of people fucking up system subs being the reason why they held off on helpers for so long then continue to allow level 2's to invite anyone they please. There's also the v/niggers situation to ponder but if that can be solved by only having janitors if those people arent fully trusted, then it's all good.
HomerSimpson ago
But then there are subs like fph where the top mod fully trusts the mods they appoint.
But I don't give a shit about system subs. Just a bunch of right wing conspiratards saying stupid conspiracy shit.
Disappointed ago
Well then you appoint level 2 mods on FPH and allmods on system subs are janitors. You wouldnt even have to hop on your alt Penis Wizard for that. The only thing that leaves to be solved is what to do with current existing L2 mods on system subs but you don't care about that, as you said.
HomerSimpson ago
But the issue is every single thread the top comments are always saying how they should remove level 2 privileges.
Disappointed ago
People are only trying to close a loophole that has been exploited. Its an accident that has been happening and will happen again if that loophole isnt closed. Its also allowing people to stack up system subs with their friends and alts currently. That us a huge problem because it means mods can test abuse almost idefinitely. They can push the line on their alts with the risk of their removal by admins, If they are removed they have their main as backup and are free to add another alt to push the rules again. Janitors that cant recruit as level 2 mods is one solutions or maybe making system subs a separate class coding wise is another solution.
HomerSimpson ago
It isn't a loophole.
Except level?3(janitor) already can't add new mods... There is literally no point in adding restrictions. Just add more sets or a proper permission system.
Disappointed ago
So you would be cool with all janitors for system subs then? They can always have level 4 for CSS changes.
InnocentBystander ago
My 2cents:
L2 system mods don't need the ability to add new L2 mods. In over a year, we've only had to change the modlist once in /v/videos, so waiting on admins for that would be fine. But, L2 mods should be able to add L4, and maybe L3 mods. If a sub wants to bring someone in to help with css, there is no need to have to wait on admins.
Dropping existing L2 mods to L3. I'm not against it, but there are some questions that need to be cleared up. Can an L3 mod still access/change the css? And who then decides who gets added as a janitor? Is that something that the admins would have to handle for every system sub, or are the janitors going to be added by existing mods? If so, then at least on L2 mod will be needed.
Cuckbot ago
They have been able to do it for over a year: https://voat.co/v/voatdev/396670
Cuckbot ago
Preventing adding new mods by level 2 should be a no brainer. No one has bought up any decent argument so far it except maybe a level 1 will go on vacation or down the track a sub may be busy enough to need it. We have had 3 big incidents where letting level 2 mods recruit other levels 2 mods has caused huge issues. For some reason it has stayed a "feature" for the last 14 months despite the trouble it has caused and barely any benefit.
Limits on subverses by mods and janitors need to be 3 at least till Voat as a community gets used to having these janitors around and seeing if they stick to just spam after a stretch of "ownership" of the sub.
Janitor status for system sub mods unless I see a good argument why they need to be level 2.
Disappointed ago
Btw, I meant to imply only me saying too much not you. It mind have sounded like that when I said "lets see what everyone else says"
VictorSteinerDavion ago
Roles
L0 / [Voat Owners] Atko and Putitout and maybe a limited number of others when hired
L1 / Owner : Can add/remove/clean/graphic/everything
Maximum 3 permitted L1 per sub. This is to slow the ability of hostile takeovers because the original owner can only be bumped if the other two agree.
In order to stop churn, L1 can only add/remove 1 person in a 3 month period. This should also encourage people to take L1 seriously and work at being a good L2 for a long enough time to make it boring for the low effort trolls
L2 / Mod : Doing it for the community. Cannot add equivalent level mods, can add L3 only, can remove L3 only
Can delete posts, block spam. A person must be L2 for 6 months minimum before having the ability to apply for L1 roles
L3 / Janitor : Can only block spam, distinguish content only.
Nothing more
L4 / Designer : Able to access stylesheet and modify flairs only.
Basically, the only person who can add/remove mods of all levels is Level 0 (atko/puttutout) and L1
L2 mods have no more power than to overuse the ban hammer, which L0 and L1 can deal with directly.
The entire issue with reddit etc is the priveledge escalation hack, simply remove that ability and we allow the community to self regulate by simply not participating in subs they don't want to.
A sub with no participation is the sole fault of the L1 group.
Putting time requirments on roles makes it much harder to pull stupid crap and also makes comunity leadership have confidence because of the implied stability in the management group.
If enough people complain about an L1 user the L0 team have a method of removing them without killing a verse, due to two other L1's being present, and a long list of L2's who can step up.
*I'm only slightly drunk, so if it has flaws etc boo hoo
Disappointed ago
Yea it may be a hard pill but if it comes to that to keep the peace on Voat it may be worth the sacrifice. Anyway let's see what everyone else says, I feel like I've hogged enough of the convo already.
Disappointed ago
I love Cynabuns to bits but no, everyone needs to have the same rules applied. I think @Cynabuns would agree on that.
Disappointed ago
That can work. Maybe the new rules don't have to be retrospectively applied to current mods and the users can have input as to how many they want to keep on each sub? Personally I'll be requesting demotion or resigning completely if someone is happy to delete the spam on v/sports every day. I havent put a lot of thought into it besides being adamant allowing level 2 system sub mods to add whoever they want is ridiculous and a mess waiting to happen and wanting a limit on subs modded across all levels.
xeemee ago
is this going to end up with 99 mod levels down the road?
Putt is apparently going to be adding another level tomorrow to accommodate subs that set the 'only authed users can post' setting (which i support)
but how far could this go? surely more new roles/levels will be added at some point
i think a different method by which users can assign roles might be more flexible and require less work (coding), whereby, when you add a user, you individually select the permissions you want to grant them - this covers all the bases and perhaps somewhat future-proofs the system insomuch as you don't have to keep hard-coding in new levels
@PuttItOut - possible suggestion on an alternative method to handle permissions and new mod levels without having to re-code
PuttItOut ago
I totally agree, granular control of permissions is the ideal, but a lot of new code would have to be written to implement it, hence why we went the route we did. We only had 1 days to dev, test, and deploy this change.
Disappointed ago
Homer has suggested something like this I believe.
Disappointed ago
@Cuckbot @HarveyHarveyJones and @Bingles also spoke up on it.
Disappointed ago
@HomerSimpson that didn't ping you did it?
Disappointed ago
I also think the janitors/level 2's etc should have a hard limit of subs they can mod. 3 for lvl 2's as it's always been and some limit on the janitors as well (preferably 3 as well).
SaneGoatiSwear ago
ok, agreed, no l2 on system subs... and on number 1... hard cap on system subs per user, agreed... 3, i'd say maybe 2 down the line... and on the final point, i'd say, janitors can't add new mods...
i see in another way, janitors that can flag for removal only with no other powers.
just thinkin out loud.
Disappointed ago
I think the main thing is that no level 2 mod should be able to invite another Lvl 2 mod in a system sub. If there are no level 2 mods in System subs then that would solve the issue as well. I would also like to see the promise PuttitOut made long ago about user input being developed put into practice as a philosophy going forward. Shit has happened and he hasn't had time to code things like that and might not for a while. That's understandable and fair enough but at least lets stop the ability of current lvls mods on System subs being able to invite whoever they want on what is supposed to be community owned subverses. Let's have the users choose a few of these janitors maybe, even if it's just nominating users with admin final approval or vice versa, in an informal setting. Lets involve the community in some of the decisions going forward, even if it's just small things, wherever possible so that no one is blindsided and no one can say dodgy shit transpired.
SaneGoatiSwear ago
+1! community involvement!
putts done a lot of hard work on this!
i agree no lvl 2 mods bringing new lvl 2 in, or lower.
do you think it's a good idea for lvl 3 and 4 as well, no bringing in buddies?
Disappointed ago
I'm not sure if lvl3 and 4 can with the new rules which is why I didn't mention them but definitely they should be restricted from inviting. Lvl 2 and down. Also I think because he's done a lot of hard work is why we need to dot all the i's this time so there's no risk of some one intent on ruining voat getting on a system sub so easily and it's something they don't have to go back to. Do it right this one time.
SaneGoatiSwear ago
:) i'm thinking about it for a minute...