You and all of the (((anti-Catholics))) go straight for a vague Vatican connection while missing the big kahuna: the Red Cross.
The Red Cross was also involved in human trafficking in Haiti after the earthquake and now they are again tied into it, but this time with Italian nobility instead of the Clintons. Organization like the Red Cross give a good cover for smuggling people during a crisis.
Also, as has been said, a dollar to a dozen doughnuts says that post has little or nothing to do with the attack.
Absolutely, and there's no doubt that the Vatican has evil people working there even at high levels (look into what happened to John Paul I). However, the Red Cross is being almost completely ignored both here and on infinitychan.
Your pope says that many roads lead to God. That's a load of crap. Only Christ is the the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the heavenly father through any other person or way but him. The very leader of the entire institution is a false prophet. How can you speak as if the CC is a godly institution with some bad apples? The very foundation and nature of it is against God.
Well... many roads do lead to God, but there is no salvation outside the Church. Ultimately those many roads have to lead to the Church founded by Christ (see my other comment).
And I'm not going to defend a lot of the in context stuff Francis says, but a great deal is taken out of context.
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31 doesn't say "there is no salvation outside the Church". The believers in Christ are the saints, this is the Church, not some building, not some religion.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
The early Christians believed that Jesus founded a Church:
“One should obey the presbyters who are the successors of the apostles….We should follow those who preserve the doctrine of the apostles and who are qualified, with the order of the priesthood, to instruct and correct others privately and publicly.” - Irenaeus (2nd century AD)
“You must continue to do nothing apart from the bishop. Obey priests as apostles of Jesus Christ. Similarly, all should respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the apostles. Apart from these there in nothing that can be called a church.” - Ignatius (2nd century AD)
...and that that Church has a single, visible head:
“The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Clement of Alexandria - Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5, A.D. 200).
“For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]” (Tertullian - Antidote Against the Scorpion 10, A.D. 211).
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (Cyprian of Carthage - The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, A.D. 251).
Besides, the Scripture you are using as your argument is not self-referential. In other words. the Bible didn't come with a table of contents: the books you reference (Acts, Mark, Ephesians) are only in use in the present day because they were part of the ancient liturgical Tradition, which was passed down through the Church. The books of the Bible weren't a single list for centuries, and for that matter, the Eastern Orthodox Churches didn't even have the same Canon until within the last hundred years or so... and even now they don't completely agree.
And while we are discussing Sacred Scripture, does your church believe Our Lord when He says:
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
The early Christians certainly believed Jesus was being literal when He gave us the Eucharist:
“...they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (Ignatius of Antioch - Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2, 7:1, A.D. 110).
“Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (Justin Martyr - First Apology 66:1–20, A.D. 150).
...and according to Christ, Himself, if you do not partake in this Sacrament, "you have no life in you".
Besides, the Scripture you are using as your argument is not self-referential.
the books you reference (Acts, Mark, Ephesians) are only in use in the present day because they were part of the ancient liturgical Tradition, which was passed down through the Church.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Gospel was completed by 60 A.D.
The law can only condemn, It is by grace through faith that we are saved. You have not addressed this, You are just deflecting, bringing up old traditions and debates of man, whereas I have quoted scripture, conclusively showing that to be saved you must believe, and that alone, by God's grace, are we saved.
Believing and being saved is the most important thing. All else follows.
Which ones? The Old Testament? The Shepherd of Hermas? The Protoevangelion of James? What about Romans, the authorship of which is still under debate.
How are you saved then? Peter says that "baptism now saves you", and Jesus says that His body and blood give you life.
No, this is not deflection, this is questioning your premise which indicates that the Scriptures have some sort of authority. Well, who decided which books were to be trusted as an authority? The answer is The Church.
No, you are dead wrong, unfortunately for you. It is clear you are not saved.
Yes, I am saved, I do believe in the Lord Christ, that he is God, come in the flesh, born of a virgin, that he bled and died for our sins, that he was risen after 3 days and ascended to heaven.
If you are not saved, you are being warred upon and have no defenses. Our human minds are a weakness and will be used against us.
2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.**
Please, I implore you, confess to the Father with your mouth these things if you believe, and be saved. Ask for the truth, ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit, that you may increase in knowledge, ask that you may be given discernment and that you may not be deceived.
You still didn't address the origins of the Scripture you're quoting and where you get the books which are in the Bible. And for the record, we say this in literally every Mass: We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
All is good on that prayer until you get to the Catholic church bit. I have already quoted you the answers via the word of God regarding most of your questions, particularly regarding salvation.
And I also already quoted you 2 timothy, that all of the Bible is good for reproof and teaching, you either believe it's the word of the Lord or you don't. Not sure what else to say to you here, I'll ask.
The point is that without Sacred Tradition there is no New Testament. The Scripture St. Paul refers to would have been the Hebrew Scriptures, (and, according to the Sacred Tradition which has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls, almost definitely the Septuagint which means it would include the Deuterocanonicals removed by Luther at the recommendation of the Jews), because there was no such thing as the New Testament when he wrote his letters.
The fact that you include what we call the New Testament indicates that you are acknowledging the authority of the Liturgical Traditions of the Church. As St. Paul also says:
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, whether by word, or by letter from us.
So, according to St. Paul, there were already Sacred Traditions handed down "by word or by letter" from the Apostles. (Note: The word used in Greek, παραδόσεις, means "teaching" or "tradition", and some translations like the NIV translate it as "teaching" when used in a positive context, and "tradition" when used in a negative context in order to cast "tradition" in a negative light). Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God handed down to us through Sacred Tradition, which is the only way we receive which books are to be included in the Canon.
Now, back to the Creed: "Catholic" literally means "universal", and so the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed are both referring to a visible universal Christian Church, not 30,000 separate denominations which include everything from high church Anglicanism to snake handlers.
Our tradition as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Bible. The traditions and letters Paul was referring to ARE in the Bible. That's what the letters to Corinthians and Galatians and such, are, literally written by Paul. It's all well and good to have familial traditions or those of your nation/people, but as long as they are not in contradiction with the Bible. If they are rebuffed by the word of God, then we would do well to reconsider them.
I should have started with "do you believe the Bible is the word of God?".
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And actually believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior is not the same as "just believing in God" or "I believe Jesus existed." I'm not saying you said that, just making a point that to fully believe in the Lord is to put your full trust in him, in his word.
I'll leave you with this scripture, as Paul wrote (my emphasis in bold/note, it's plural);
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Not all of the Traditions St. Paul refers to are in Scripture. Scripture, for instance, never once mentions the word "Trinity": that is pure Tradition.
Scripture also never mentions what the early Church liturgy looked like: for that, you have to wait until Justin Martyr in AD 155.
Ignoring this Tradition also means that you ignore things like "baptism now saves you", and the absolute necessity of partaking in the Eucharist as the actual Body and Blood of our Savior without which "you have no life in you".
And yes, Paul uses the plural for "churches", because there was more than one community in Galatia, but they all practiced the same thing, and almost definitely recited the Apostles' Creed.
Just do me one favor: go read Justin Martyr's First Apology; if your church doesn't look or act like this, you're in the wrong place.
I'm done rebuking you, I really hope you pray to God in the Lord Jesus Christ's name and accept the free gift of salvation and that the Holy Spirit will fill you with truth and discernment. It is by Grace alone through faith that we are saved. God Bless you.
Literally none of that is Biblical. You cannot interpret Scripture on your own without devolving into something not remotely Christian... like believing in sola scritpura, or sola fide.
You haven't addressed anything I've mentioned, let alone debunked anything.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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swordfish69 ago
For those who actually read what @puttitout shared while the site was down
House of Peretti/Borromeo - Italian Noblemen
NJF Capital/OWKIN (Nicole Junkermann)
Vatican City
Epstein & Associates
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
You and all of the (((anti-Catholics))) go straight for a vague Vatican connection while missing the big kahuna: the Red Cross.
The Red Cross was also involved in human trafficking in Haiti after the earthquake and now they are again tied into it, but this time with Italian nobility instead of the Clintons. Organization like the Red Cross give a good cover for smuggling people during a crisis.
Also, as has been said, a dollar to a dozen doughnuts says that post has little or nothing to do with the attack.
madmardigan ago
Any and every public organization is a Target for infiltration. Just look at how Papa John's was taken over and the founder ousted.
These (((people))) cannot create. They steal from others. Usurp power and authority by offering a payout while plotting to take control.
The Catholic Church most likely has many evil people involved. That does not discredit the religion, just the organization.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
Absolutely, and there's no doubt that the Vatican has evil people working there even at high levels (look into what happened to John Paul I). However, the Red Cross is being almost completely ignored both here and on infinitychan.
kuhmayamaya ago
Your pope says that many roads lead to God. That's a load of crap. Only Christ is the the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the heavenly father through any other person or way but him. The very leader of the entire institution is a false prophet. How can you speak as if the CC is a godly institution with some bad apples? The very foundation and nature of it is against God.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
Well... many roads do lead to God, but there is no salvation outside the Church. Ultimately those many roads have to lead to the Church founded by Christ (see my other comment).
And I'm not going to defend a lot of the in context stuff Francis says, but a great deal is taken out of context.
BowlOfWeedies ago
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31 doesn't say "there is no salvation outside the Church". The believers in Christ are the saints, this is the Church, not some building, not some religion.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
The early Christians believed that Jesus founded a Church:
...and that that Church has a single, visible head:
Besides, the Scripture you are using as your argument is not self-referential. In other words. the Bible didn't come with a table of contents: the books you reference (Acts, Mark, Ephesians) are only in use in the present day because they were part of the ancient liturgical Tradition, which was passed down through the Church. The books of the Bible weren't a single list for centuries, and for that matter, the Eastern Orthodox Churches didn't even have the same Canon until within the last hundred years or so... and even now they don't completely agree.
And while we are discussing Sacred Scripture, does your church believe Our Lord when He says:
The early Christians certainly believed Jesus was being literal when He gave us the Eucharist:
...and according to Christ, Himself, if you do not partake in this Sacrament, "you have no life in you".
@kuhmayamaya
BowlOfWeedies ago
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Gospel was completed by 60 A.D.
The law can only condemn, It is by grace through faith that we are saved. You have not addressed this, You are just deflecting, bringing up old traditions and debates of man, whereas I have quoted scripture, conclusively showing that to be saved you must believe, and that alone, by God's grace, are we saved.
Believing and being saved is the most important thing. All else follows.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
Which ones? The Old Testament? The Shepherd of Hermas? The Protoevangelion of James? What about Romans, the authorship of which is still under debate.
How are you saved then? Peter says that "baptism now saves you", and Jesus says that His body and blood give you life.
No, this is not deflection, this is questioning your premise which indicates that the Scriptures have some sort of authority. Well, who decided which books were to be trusted as an authority? The answer is The Church.
BowlOfWeedies ago
No, you are dead wrong, unfortunately for you. It is clear you are not saved.
Yes, I am saved, I do believe in the Lord Christ, that he is God, come in the flesh, born of a virgin, that he bled and died for our sins, that he was risen after 3 days and ascended to heaven.
If you are not saved, you are being warred upon and have no defenses. Our human minds are a weakness and will be used against us.
2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.**
Please, I implore you, confess to the Father with your mouth these things if you believe, and be saved. Ask for the truth, ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit, that you may increase in knowledge, ask that you may be given discernment and that you may not be deceived.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
You still didn't address the origins of the Scripture you're quoting and where you get the books which are in the Bible. And for the record, we say this in literally every Mass: We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
BowlOfWeedies ago
All is good on that prayer until you get to the Catholic church bit. I have already quoted you the answers via the word of God regarding most of your questions, particularly regarding salvation.
And I also already quoted you 2 timothy, that all of the Bible is good for reproof and teaching, you either believe it's the word of the Lord or you don't. Not sure what else to say to you here, I'll ask.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
The point is that without Sacred Tradition there is no New Testament. The Scripture St. Paul refers to would have been the Hebrew Scriptures, (and, according to the Sacred Tradition which has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls, almost definitely the Septuagint which means it would include the Deuterocanonicals removed by Luther at the recommendation of the Jews), because there was no such thing as the New Testament when he wrote his letters.
The fact that you include what we call the New Testament indicates that you are acknowledging the authority of the Liturgical Traditions of the Church. As St. Paul also says:
So, according to St. Paul, there were already Sacred Traditions handed down "by word or by letter" from the Apostles. (Note: The word used in Greek, παραδόσεις, means "teaching" or "tradition", and some translations like the NIV translate it as "teaching" when used in a positive context, and "tradition" when used in a negative context in order to cast "tradition" in a negative light). Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God handed down to us through Sacred Tradition, which is the only way we receive which books are to be included in the Canon.
Now, back to the Creed: "Catholic" literally means "universal", and so the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed are both referring to a visible universal Christian Church, not 30,000 separate denominations which include everything from high church Anglicanism to snake handlers.
BowlOfWeedies ago
Our tradition as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Bible. The traditions and letters Paul was referring to ARE in the Bible. That's what the letters to Corinthians and Galatians and such, are, literally written by Paul. It's all well and good to have familial traditions or those of your nation/people, but as long as they are not in contradiction with the Bible. If they are rebuffed by the word of God, then we would do well to reconsider them.
I should have started with "do you believe the Bible is the word of God?".
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And actually believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior is not the same as "just believing in God" or "I believe Jesus existed." I'm not saying you said that, just making a point that to fully believe in the Lord is to put your full trust in him, in his word.
I'll leave you with this scripture, as Paul wrote (my emphasis in bold/note, it's plural);
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
Not all of the Traditions St. Paul refers to are in Scripture. Scripture, for instance, never once mentions the word "Trinity": that is pure Tradition.
Scripture also never mentions what the early Church liturgy looked like: for that, you have to wait until Justin Martyr in AD 155.
Ignoring this Tradition also means that you ignore things like "baptism now saves you", and the absolute necessity of partaking in the Eucharist as the actual Body and Blood of our Savior without which "you have no life in you".
And yes, Paul uses the plural for "churches", because there was more than one community in Galatia, but they all practiced the same thing, and almost definitely recited the Apostles' Creed.
Just do me one favor: go read Justin Martyr's First Apology; if your church doesn't look or act like this, you're in the wrong place.
BowlOfWeedies ago
I'm done rebuking you, I really hope you pray to God in the Lord Jesus Christ's name and accept the free gift of salvation and that the Holy Spirit will fill you with truth and discernment. It is by Grace alone through faith that we are saved. God Bless you.
LexOrandiLexCredendi ago
Literally none of that is Biblical. You cannot interpret Scripture on your own without devolving into something not remotely Christian... like believing in sola scritpura, or sola fide.
You haven't addressed anything I've mentioned, let alone debunked anything.
BowlOfWeedies ago
I'll pray for you.