Also, as much as I believe in the free speech mantra of Voat.co, I find the constant and unnecessary hate of black people regardless of their situation, accomplishments or history very tiring and somewhat childish and have always felt more comfortable around people I can learn from and or people that would rather not subscribe to willful ignorance if they can help it.
I understand Voat.co is the place people come to when they have become outcast from or fed up with other internet sites and also commend the Voat.co creators/helpers for their commitment to helping almost all people regardless of their take on the world to give them a medium where they can say what they feel without fear of it being edited or deleted.
With all that said. I still love voat and most of all of its subscribers even though I am finding it increasingly difficult to take some of voats content seriously.
Ultimately though, I guess you have to take the good with the not so good when advocating for free speech.
Was going to mention this. The anti-black, anti-Jew comments in almost every single comment thread are what make my own participation wax and wane. When it gets to be too much, I just leave for a few days and come back when it's less shitty.
I mean, not that I'm one to talk but you've never even made a submission on the site. Be the change you want to see?
As far as Anti-Black goes, do you disagree that 13% of the population is committing 71% of the violent crime? Do you recognize that stating that factual information makes society at large label you as racist? Have you followed the near daily black on white hate crimes occurring in America? Elderly women being killed by young black men on a regular basis.
As far as Anti-jew goes, do you disagree that nearly every major industry on the face of our planet has major if not complete influence by Jewish individuals? Do you disagree that a majority of positions within several of our media outlets have obscene hiring practices that promote a specific religion over any other candidate? Do you disagree that Jewish Lobbyists have outrageous power within America? Do you disagree that financing Israel is not beneficial to average Americans?
There are legitimate reasons for the things you don't like seeing here. These are some of the arguably most important issues facing our society today. They are the most important issues facing our society today for a majority of Voat because trying to express concern about these issues anywhere else on the Internet will end up with censorship and account terminations.
It's not about the site being less shitty when you come back. This isn't a joke for us, it's not some elaborate troll...
My "submissions" are in the form of long-form comments, often where I add links to data for those interested, and I have a lot of those. You may not think that qualifies as "the change I want to see," but I think it does.
I understand that the black population in American disproportionately commits violent crime, but I also understand that the majority of that crime is against other blacks, and it occurs in high-poverty areas in cities where territorial gang disputes are the norm. Overall, violent crime over the past two decades has decreased substantially (see link above). That's important context that much "racial realist" demagoguery omits. I'd also like to see a legitimate link to data showing that "elderly women" are being targeted by young black men in the U.S. with any kind of "regularity."
Jews, as a group, do tend to wield more "influence" in Western society than one might suspect based upon their sheer numbers (which are relatively small), but there is also strong evidence that the causes of this phenomenon are not due to conspiracy, but due to difference is both culture and IQ.
I agree that some people being overly defensive and fearful about their future, due to either legitimate or misplaced insecurity about their own skills and abilities, is an important issue. That's what I see when I read the rhetoric from the white nationalists here on Voat, and it's also what I see from "race realists" on the other side, such as those who see racism against them everywhere and use such assumptions to advocate for preferential treatment based upon race in order to "level the playing field." IMO, identity politics is odious and counterproductive, regardless of what race is pushing it.
I know the identitarian philosophy being pushed by the radicals and reactionaries on both sides of the political aisle is not a "joke" at all. That's why I find it so frustrating to deal with. If it were just trolls, I wouldn't leave. Instead, it's ideologues pushing demagoguery. It's extremely tedious for most Americans who believe in treating people as individuals instead of members of some competing or complimentary group.
I understand that the black population in American disproportionately commits violent crime, but I also understand that the majority of that crime is against other blacks,
I've noticed you talk about insecurity and seem to put an emphasis on fear being involved here. I don't think a lot of the opinions here are based in fear of the crime being committed against them, nor is it a tribal concern over their white brethren being attacked -- although that clearly is a factor and definitely plays a role. I'm just getting the vibe that you feel this is the main foundation for a lot of our beliefs?
I disagree. So I'll speak for myself because what else can I really say -- My "bigotry" is generally always due to what I perceive as an power grab in essence. An over reach. People trying to correct legitimate issues but in doing so going too far and ending up creating problems rather than solving them. Racial tension has increased drastically over the last few years, from my perspective society at large is blaming white people. Blaming the actual structure of our society. You see this with the BLM movement and many others, but you also see it in third wave feminism. They attack the "Patriarchy". They're creating a problem that can't be addressed because instead of focusing on specific situations which could be handled appropriately, they create the illusion of a structure, and because it is an illusion I can't defend or articulate anything meaningful in response. They've pushed so hard that many reasonable people are now simply not caring whether someone believes they're racist or not. I genuinely don't believe I'm racist. I don't feel I'm superior to anyone because of the color of my skin. There are differences in genetics and cultures though, to ignore that is in my opinion far more racist than acknowledging the truths of our differences.
Overall, violent crime over the past two decades has decreased substantially
I'm not arguing that, and I don't think anyone else is either to be honest. Out of curiosity, just humor me here, if you were to consider what ethnic group was most responsible for that decrease...? I was just looking at information the other night showing increases of violent crime in several cities, then I checked census data to find that those cities tend to have lower percentages of "White" people. I'm not even going to talk about what the higher percentages are of. I'm just going to say that these cities experiencing an increase in violent crime instead of the overall national decrease, they had a lower percentage of white people than average. If you want I'll provide links but honestly it would take me another five minutes or so and I'm already spending a lot of time, I think it's pretty readily available information and shouldn't really be a point of contention but ya, ask and you shall receive.
Jews, as a group, do tend to wield more "influence" in Western society than one might suspect based upon their sheer numbers (which are relatively small), but there is also strong evidence that the causes of this phenomenon are not due to conspiracy, but due to difference is both culture and IQ.
Relatively small being what exactly? I'm pretty sure you know the percentage of their population compared to the number of positions of power their people hold. There's no real excuse for so many of our major news networks for instance that allegedly promote diversity to have a majority of high ranking Jewish "employees". The kicker is that for me personally, it's about the over reach. I probably never would have even become as aware of it as I now am if it wasn't for the utter over reach. From my perspective, if racism exists, these people create it. Black people create it by being incredibly violent, in such large numbers that it can't just be dismissed as occasional incidents. It's a serious trend among the vast vast majority of their various sub cultures. That is a truth. You can see it in America and you can see it in Africa. That's not even my issue though, they can be that way, that's who they are, I don't care. The problem is it's being placed on my doorstep and I'm being told that I'm the one responsible. At the end of the day when I come home from work I know that minutes of my day are taken from me in the form of taxes and used to house and feed the significantly large unemployed black demographic. It's not that I'm paying taxes for someone who isn't my skin color either, please don't go there -- it's that I'm being told that I am personally an evil person for having ancestors that allegedly slighted these people. This isn't some perceived issue that I'm exaggerating, there's a concentrated effort by nearly every form of media to psychologically attack me as an individual based on the color of my skin.
Then, on top of everything else, the proverbial cherry -- I get attacked when I give even the slightest critique of the problem. People already view me as this potential racist simply because I'm white, then when I open my mouth and say anything that isn't 100% their talking points they perceive it as the proof of their allegations.
And you wonder why there's an uptick of "white nationalists" ?
I agree that some people being overly defensive and fearful about their future, due to either legitimate or misplaced insecurity about their own skills and abilities, is an important issue.
So for me, and maybe I'm taking it the wrong way, correct me if I am, but when I read that I feel you're trying to reinforce the stereotype of those who are right leaning being uneducated or unskilled? This is just another example of those who critique us stooping to gross generalizations. It's certainly not going to help, or increase the chances of you convincing anyone with my belief structure. You must recognize that, right? I mean hey, if that's what you genuinely believe you have every right to say it but I'd be surprised if that's actually the case.
IMO, identity politics is odious and counterproductive, regardless of what race is pushing it.
I agree with that, unfortunately many people feel that if they don't step up and start defending their race then they will continue to be painted as the villain. Many people are not ok with welcoming that into their daily lives. They're not ok with being told that they're a bad person because of the color of their skin only to then be accused of racism as well. People are starting to wake up and realize that they've made concession after concession and it's not stopping any time soon. What amazes me is that when you wake up and start recognizing these patterns, you start to want to learn more about it. You want to learn what fuels it. You start to learn more about our history as a species. It betters you as an individual, unless all you do is listen to say Alex Jones -- but I feel a lot of people are spending time actually researching their history instead of blindly accepting what's told to them by our increasingly politically correct and arguably failing education system. The more you look into Jewish influence over the past thousand years the more you learn about their "culture" as you put it. I don't detest all Jews, I'm not one of the "gas the kikes 1488 race war now" lot. I'm still convinced they're largely a vocal minority meant to undermine the overall awakening of Europes children. That said, I also recognize the anger that comes with realizing so much of what you've been taught is a lie. I recognize that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily stable, and I'd like to hope some of the more extreme things we see that aren't agents provocateur are people venting their anger. I don't begrudge them that, nor do I even really begrudge those who genuinely have more extreme beliefs because from my perspective (((they))) have been waging a psychological war against humanity, not just "white" people, for a very long time now.
It's extremely tedious for most Americans who believe in treating people as individuals instead of members of some competing or complimentary group.
It's extremely tedious for a lot of Americans who believe in recognizing that groups instead of individuals are what make up a culture. I feel there's an analogy to be made about how so many communists feel that every example of communism is not true communism. I completely understand that individuals deserve to be treated as individuals, however when as I mentioned and as you acknowledged 13% of a population is somehow capable of committing 71% of the violent crime, there's going to be more incidents of our police interacting with that population and it's not "racism" it's "reality". I also point out that many of the positive role models in black communities are actually mixed race. Not to say anything about White people but to further highlight that black culture is fairly toxic in and of itself. It has significantly more violence than White cultures. I feel that this has been proven. So I could go as far as saying no taxation with representation here. Black people should be taxed higher because they should be funding our Courts and Police Officers to a higher degree than white people. That in my eyes is extremely reasonable.
The "overreaching" you seem to be concerned about (including the tendency to blame whites, especially currently-living whites, for the problems of minorities in the U.S.) has less to do with a Jewish cabal who controls some sort of narrative and more to do with academics (and students taught by those academics, who often go into showbusiness and journalism) who grew up on the philosophies of postmodernism and neo-Marxism. It is these toxic philosophies that attempt to "critique" Western culture and values (such as the European Enlightenment), largely without ever providing solutions to sociopolitical problems that need solving, undermining the system upon which our society is based.
Much of the blame for this lies squarely at the feet the Frankfurt School. If you aren't familiar with it, it is the school of thought created by French Marxists that realized that orthodox Marxism was failing in many places, most notably in the Soviet Union, and attempted to salvage what they could of the philosophy by creating Critical Theory, which underpins many of the "overreaching" features of the modern political debate. These include moral and cultural relativism, the focus on "lived experience" over quantifiable data, ephemeral structures such as the Patriarchy or the global Neoliberal Hegemony, and collectivist cultural identities (rather than meritocratic, individualistic values that underpin a classical liberal society such as ours) that center on group rights over individual rights. Not all of the Frankfurt School thinkers were collectivists (many had individualistic sympathies), but the end result of their writings were a critique of Western society based upon such individualistic values, and especially of capitalism. When people who are taught this shit move into the world of politics or entertainment, they drag their toxic ideology with them, and this undermines the values upon which Western society is built. This is not a "white" issue, this is an issue of Western values established by the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution, and supported by people like Kant and Locke. That, IMO, is worth fighting for, not some ridiculous argument about which race is more "violent" than another on average.
Likewise, your racial stereotypes when it comes to blacks may well have more to do with finding causation where only correlation is present. In other words, you may be seeing more violent crime in black areas partially for the reasons mentioned in the HUD link I provided in my previous comment, but also because more police presence in those areas necessary leads to more scrutiny (and more arrests), creating the impression that more policing is needed, which creates a feedback loop. Even if I accepted your argument that blacks are more violent than other races, I would refuse to use such averages to enforce some kind of predatory, race-based tax on all blacks because of that. That is decidedly illiberal and it punishes those who would put in the work to rise above their "nature."
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blipblipbeep ago
G'day Div, you wonderful soul.
I couldn't agree more Div mate.
Also, as much as I believe in the free speech mantra of Voat.co, I find the constant and unnecessary hate of black people regardless of their situation, accomplishments or history very tiring and somewhat childish and have always felt more comfortable around people I can learn from and or people that would rather not subscribe to willful ignorance if they can help it.
I understand Voat.co is the place people come to when they have become outcast from or fed up with other internet sites and also commend the Voat.co creators/helpers for their commitment to helping almost all people regardless of their take on the world to give them a medium where they can say what they feel without fear of it being edited or deleted.
With all that said. I still love voat and most of all of its subscribers even though I am finding it increasingly difficult to take some of voats content seriously.
Ultimately though, I guess you have to take the good with the not so good when advocating for free speech.
Love your work Div mate :)
peace...
intrepiddemise ago
Was going to mention this. The anti-black, anti-Jew comments in almost every single comment thread are what make my own participation wax and wane. When it gets to be too much, I just leave for a few days and come back when it's less shitty.
Pissant ago
I mean, not that I'm one to talk but you've never even made a submission on the site. Be the change you want to see?
As far as Anti-Black goes, do you disagree that 13% of the population is committing 71% of the violent crime? Do you recognize that stating that factual information makes society at large label you as racist? Have you followed the near daily black on white hate crimes occurring in America? Elderly women being killed by young black men on a regular basis.
As far as Anti-jew goes, do you disagree that nearly every major industry on the face of our planet has major if not complete influence by Jewish individuals? Do you disagree that a majority of positions within several of our media outlets have obscene hiring practices that promote a specific religion over any other candidate? Do you disagree that Jewish Lobbyists have outrageous power within America? Do you disagree that financing Israel is not beneficial to average Americans?
There are legitimate reasons for the things you don't like seeing here. These are some of the arguably most important issues facing our society today. They are the most important issues facing our society today for a majority of Voat because trying to express concern about these issues anywhere else on the Internet will end up with censorship and account terminations.
It's not about the site being less shitty when you come back. This isn't a joke for us, it's not some elaborate troll...
intrepiddemise ago
My "submissions" are in the form of long-form comments, often where I add links to data for those interested, and I have a lot of those. You may not think that qualifies as "the change I want to see," but I think it does.
I understand that the black population in American disproportionately commits violent crime, but I also understand that the majority of that crime is against other blacks, and it occurs in high-poverty areas in cities where territorial gang disputes are the norm. Overall, violent crime over the past two decades has decreased substantially (see link above). That's important context that much "racial realist" demagoguery omits. I'd also like to see a legitimate link to data showing that "elderly women" are being targeted by young black men in the U.S. with any kind of "regularity."
Jews, as a group, do tend to wield more "influence" in Western society than one might suspect based upon their sheer numbers (which are relatively small), but there is also strong evidence that the causes of this phenomenon are not due to conspiracy, but due to difference is both culture and IQ.
I agree that some people being overly defensive and fearful about their future, due to either legitimate or misplaced insecurity about their own skills and abilities, is an important issue. That's what I see when I read the rhetoric from the white nationalists here on Voat, and it's also what I see from "race realists" on the other side, such as those who see racism against them everywhere and use such assumptions to advocate for preferential treatment based upon race in order to "level the playing field." IMO, identity politics is odious and counterproductive, regardless of what race is pushing it.
I know the identitarian philosophy being pushed by the radicals and reactionaries on both sides of the political aisle is not a "joke" at all. That's why I find it so frustrating to deal with. If it were just trolls, I wouldn't leave. Instead, it's ideologues pushing demagoguery. It's extremely tedious for most Americans who believe in treating people as individuals instead of members of some competing or complimentary group.
Pissant ago
It's a lot better than some, I'll give you that.
I've noticed you talk about insecurity and seem to put an emphasis on fear being involved here. I don't think a lot of the opinions here are based in fear of the crime being committed against them, nor is it a tribal concern over their white brethren being attacked -- although that clearly is a factor and definitely plays a role. I'm just getting the vibe that you feel this is the main foundation for a lot of our beliefs?
I disagree. So I'll speak for myself because what else can I really say -- My "bigotry" is generally always due to what I perceive as an power grab in essence. An over reach. People trying to correct legitimate issues but in doing so going too far and ending up creating problems rather than solving them. Racial tension has increased drastically over the last few years, from my perspective society at large is blaming white people. Blaming the actual structure of our society. You see this with the BLM movement and many others, but you also see it in third wave feminism. They attack the "Patriarchy". They're creating a problem that can't be addressed because instead of focusing on specific situations which could be handled appropriately, they create the illusion of a structure, and because it is an illusion I can't defend or articulate anything meaningful in response. They've pushed so hard that many reasonable people are now simply not caring whether someone believes they're racist or not. I genuinely don't believe I'm racist. I don't feel I'm superior to anyone because of the color of my skin. There are differences in genetics and cultures though, to ignore that is in my opinion far more racist than acknowledging the truths of our differences.
I'm not arguing that, and I don't think anyone else is either to be honest. Out of curiosity, just humor me here, if you were to consider what ethnic group was most responsible for that decrease...? I was just looking at information the other night showing increases of violent crime in several cities, then I checked census data to find that those cities tend to have lower percentages of "White" people. I'm not even going to talk about what the higher percentages are of. I'm just going to say that these cities experiencing an increase in violent crime instead of the overall national decrease, they had a lower percentage of white people than average. If you want I'll provide links but honestly it would take me another five minutes or so and I'm already spending a lot of time, I think it's pretty readily available information and shouldn't really be a point of contention but ya, ask and you shall receive.
Relatively small being what exactly? I'm pretty sure you know the percentage of their population compared to the number of positions of power their people hold. There's no real excuse for so many of our major news networks for instance that allegedly promote diversity to have a majority of high ranking Jewish "employees". The kicker is that for me personally, it's about the over reach. I probably never would have even become as aware of it as I now am if it wasn't for the utter over reach. From my perspective, if racism exists, these people create it. Black people create it by being incredibly violent, in such large numbers that it can't just be dismissed as occasional incidents. It's a serious trend among the vast vast majority of their various sub cultures. That is a truth. You can see it in America and you can see it in Africa. That's not even my issue though, they can be that way, that's who they are, I don't care. The problem is it's being placed on my doorstep and I'm being told that I'm the one responsible. At the end of the day when I come home from work I know that minutes of my day are taken from me in the form of taxes and used to house and feed the significantly large unemployed black demographic. It's not that I'm paying taxes for someone who isn't my skin color either, please don't go there -- it's that I'm being told that I am personally an evil person for having ancestors that allegedly slighted these people. This isn't some perceived issue that I'm exaggerating, there's a concentrated effort by nearly every form of media to psychologically attack me as an individual based on the color of my skin.
Then, on top of everything else, the proverbial cherry -- I get attacked when I give even the slightest critique of the problem. People already view me as this potential racist simply because I'm white, then when I open my mouth and say anything that isn't 100% their talking points they perceive it as the proof of their allegations.
And you wonder why there's an uptick of "white nationalists" ?
So for me, and maybe I'm taking it the wrong way, correct me if I am, but when I read that I feel you're trying to reinforce the stereotype of those who are right leaning being uneducated or unskilled? This is just another example of those who critique us stooping to gross generalizations. It's certainly not going to help, or increase the chances of you convincing anyone with my belief structure. You must recognize that, right? I mean hey, if that's what you genuinely believe you have every right to say it but I'd be surprised if that's actually the case.
I agree with that, unfortunately many people feel that if they don't step up and start defending their race then they will continue to be painted as the villain. Many people are not ok with welcoming that into their daily lives. They're not ok with being told that they're a bad person because of the color of their skin only to then be accused of racism as well. People are starting to wake up and realize that they've made concession after concession and it's not stopping any time soon. What amazes me is that when you wake up and start recognizing these patterns, you start to want to learn more about it. You want to learn what fuels it. You start to learn more about our history as a species. It betters you as an individual, unless all you do is listen to say Alex Jones -- but I feel a lot of people are spending time actually researching their history instead of blindly accepting what's told to them by our increasingly politically correct and arguably failing education system. The more you look into Jewish influence over the past thousand years the more you learn about their "culture" as you put it. I don't detest all Jews, I'm not one of the "gas the kikes 1488 race war now" lot. I'm still convinced they're largely a vocal minority meant to undermine the overall awakening of Europes children. That said, I also recognize the anger that comes with realizing so much of what you've been taught is a lie. I recognize that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily stable, and I'd like to hope some of the more extreme things we see that aren't agents provocateur are people venting their anger. I don't begrudge them that, nor do I even really begrudge those who genuinely have more extreme beliefs because from my perspective (((they))) have been waging a psychological war against humanity, not just "white" people, for a very long time now.
It's extremely tedious for a lot of Americans who believe in recognizing that groups instead of individuals are what make up a culture. I feel there's an analogy to be made about how so many communists feel that every example of communism is not true communism. I completely understand that individuals deserve to be treated as individuals, however when as I mentioned and as you acknowledged 13% of a population is somehow capable of committing 71% of the violent crime, there's going to be more incidents of our police interacting with that population and it's not "racism" it's "reality". I also point out that many of the positive role models in black communities are actually mixed race. Not to say anything about White people but to further highlight that black culture is fairly toxic in and of itself. It has significantly more violence than White cultures. I feel that this has been proven. So I could go as far as saying no taxation with representation here. Black people should be taxed higher because they should be funding our Courts and Police Officers to a higher degree than white people. That in my eyes is extremely reasonable.
intrepiddemise ago
The "overreaching" you seem to be concerned about (including the tendency to blame whites, especially currently-living whites, for the problems of minorities in the U.S.) has less to do with a Jewish cabal who controls some sort of narrative and more to do with academics (and students taught by those academics, who often go into showbusiness and journalism) who grew up on the philosophies of postmodernism and neo-Marxism. It is these toxic philosophies that attempt to "critique" Western culture and values (such as the European Enlightenment), largely without ever providing solutions to sociopolitical problems that need solving, undermining the system upon which our society is based.
Much of the blame for this lies squarely at the feet the Frankfurt School. If you aren't familiar with it, it is the school of thought created by French Marxists that realized that orthodox Marxism was failing in many places, most notably in the Soviet Union, and attempted to salvage what they could of the philosophy by creating Critical Theory, which underpins many of the "overreaching" features of the modern political debate. These include moral and cultural relativism, the focus on "lived experience" over quantifiable data, ephemeral structures such as the Patriarchy or the global Neoliberal Hegemony, and collectivist cultural identities (rather than meritocratic, individualistic values that underpin a classical liberal society such as ours) that center on group rights over individual rights. Not all of the Frankfurt School thinkers were collectivists (many had individualistic sympathies), but the end result of their writings were a critique of Western society based upon such individualistic values, and especially of capitalism. When people who are taught this shit move into the world of politics or entertainment, they drag their toxic ideology with them, and this undermines the values upon which Western society is built. This is not a "white" issue, this is an issue of Western values established by the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution, and supported by people like Kant and Locke. That, IMO, is worth fighting for, not some ridiculous argument about which race is more "violent" than another on average.
Likewise, your racial stereotypes when it comes to blacks may well have more to do with finding causation where only correlation is present. In other words, you may be seeing more violent crime in black areas partially for the reasons mentioned in the HUD link I provided in my previous comment, but also because more police presence in those areas necessary leads to more scrutiny (and more arrests), creating the impression that more policing is needed, which creates a feedback loop. Even if I accepted your argument that blacks are more violent than other races, I would refuse to use such averages to enforce some kind of predatory, race-based tax on all blacks because of that. That is decidedly illiberal and it punishes those who would put in the work to rise above their "nature."