There’s a reason liberals don’t want pregnant women to view ultrasounds, because something like 70% decide not to abort. If you’ve never been pregnant - I can’t explain it. I saw my first on US at 5 w 4 d, and there was nothing much to see. He looked like a grain of rice, but she showed me his heartbeat, and it was just fluttering on the scre n. And then I heard it. It made me cry. He was so, so tiny, with such a big, strong heart. And, he had everything in place to be who he is today. His chromosomes haven’t changed - and the world is a better place because he’s here. If I aborted him, it wouldn’t be a cluster of cells I discarded, it would be my son. I would have stopped that beautiful heartbeat I longed to see and hear after my miscarriage. He was and is a person. As are all of my children. And so are all of the children murdered by abortion.
The idea of making it illegal making it less safe is ridiculous. It would make women responsible and accountable For their behavior and decisions. Women are using abortion as birth control and as a tool for promiscuity. No, men don’t own women’s bodies, but it was in the past and should be now, that sex was for marriage or at least love, and women and men both had a stake in the pregnancy. Men stood up and raised the child and created a family.
This is a society problem. And, don’t give me rape/incest/whatever- that is something like less than 5% of all abortions, and there could be specially trained doctors and psychologists to help these women in these circumstances.
Did I write Australian Sign Language or did I write American Sign Language? You might want to have a look at which language I posted. There are no "versions" of sign language.
Ok, sorry, I get touchy with the subject, because sign lanaguages are just so misunderstood by the hearing. American English is a dialect of English. Some sign languages are related based on who and where they were created. Sign lanaguges also have dialects.
Or you could try to change it inn a productive way, like voting for a candidate who supports your beliefs or donating to a cause that is like minded. Remind me again how screaming in girls faces about how they are going to burn in hell as they walk into a clinic changes anything.
I've had one pregnancy in my life and it ended in a natural miscarriage. After that my s.o. and I decided we didn't want children so he had a vasectomy. We went with him over me because the procedure for men is less invasive with a faster recovery and also has the possibility of being reversed(not 100% guaranteed, but still better chances than a woman for reversing it) in case we do decide to have children later in life.
Not all people who are pro-choice are feminists who think it''s ok to have multiple abortions because they didn't feel like taking the pill, not all people who are pro-choice have had an abortion. Some people who are pro-choice just understand that sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes carrying a child full term can be a difficult thing, especially for a young girl who my not have the support of the father or even her own family and you cant force someone to carry a child for 9 months, if they don't want it and are desperate enough they will find the means on their own at greater risk to themselves and the child. If you take all the options away that's when you get things like girls dying from trying to self terminate or having children born with physical and/mental handicap's because the mother tried to self terminate and failed.
Don't mention your miscarriage or husband's vasectomy in a debate about abortion because they are unrelated.
I don't owe anything to a homeless person, but I would oppose a law that legalized the murder of homeless people. If you were in favor of that law you'd be in favor of murdering homeless people. My opposal of that law does not make me owe anything to homeless people. In the same way I don't owe things to orphans because I oppose the murder of children.
Abortion is wrong because it is murder not because I don't like it. If you want me to agree with you then you have to prove that it is not the murder of a human being.
The law wouldn't force anyone to carry the pregnancy to term. All the decisions were made before the pregnancy. The laws would suggest that once a child is concieved it is a human and cannot be killed. If you oppose that then prove it is not a human or that the murder is justified.
Murdering someone often invites risk to the murderer. This is not the fault of the law that forbids murder. This is the fault of the individual that decides to engage in the act. In the same way the woman who decides to attempt self termination is responsible and not the law.
The part about my miscarriage was a reply to the comment above it and not part of any debate but you're right that the two are unrelated.
If there were a law making it legal to murder homeless people it would still personally effect you more than legalized abortion as if you were too ever become homeless you would be eligible for murder yourself. As this is something that also would effect your right too live free it is something you should have a say in. Personally I don't like to compare abortion to other things that are legal or illegal as I think it stands in a category of its own morally but it I were to compare it too something it would probably be closest to euthanasia of animals. The animal has no say on whether it gets to live or die. It is legal to murder your dog. I don't like the fact that it's legal or that anyone can walk into a vet with an animal and say they would like to have it put to sleep and some vets will do it without question. I don't however think it should be completely illegal, I do think there should be a little more regulation on when you can and can't have your pet put down. I don't think everyone who put a pet to sleep is wrong or a bad person, I do think some people abuse the system and are wrong.
Abortion being murder is your opinion and I'm probably not going to change your mind about that but for the sake of argument I'll try to argue for at what point i think abortion should no longer be legal. So, too start with murder is the killing of another human being so the question here is at what point to we consider an embryo a human. Some people argue the point of conception or the heartbeat. So there is the big debate. The facts are this: week 4 the embryo is the size of a grain of rice and still forming bodily systems; Week 6 the embryo starts secreting hormones to block the mothers menstrual cycle; week 7 the embryo develops a heartbeat; week 10 the brain has active brain waves. So where in there do you consider human life to be. Personally I think
2nd and 3rd trimester abortion should be illegal except in cases where carrying to term could kill the mother, as far as first trimester goes, by week four an woman should suspect shes pregnant, by week six she should know and that's also when her own body will start to secrete the hormones needed too keep the pregnancy, so that's my cut off. After that somewhere in between 7 and 10 is where i think human life begins, once brain waves start that's it. II also don't think surgical abortion should be a thing except again, in extreme cases. I think the woman who gets an abortion should take the pill which causes her body to miscarry, i cant remember the name off hand, then they miscarry at home over the course of weeks like a natural miscarriage and are faced directly with physical consequences to their choice as opposed to being put under in a chair for 5 to 10 mins and continuing the day moderately fine. If it was made a law that a woman had to submit too test's before an abortion to see if the fetus had a heartbeat and/or brain waves and if so she would be refused that abortion, I would be okay with that.
The law would force any woman who became pregnant not too seek action to terminate that pregnancy by extension forcing her to carry said pregnancy to term, you can argue it was her fault for getting pregnant and you would be right but it doesn't change the fact that you would still be forcing her to carry to term at that point.
You are correct, any act of violence invites violence in return and arguably impacts the person doing the violence as negatively as the victim. You are also right that it is not the fault of the law if a woman who tries to self terminate kills herself in the process, it is also not the fault of the child born disabled because their mother attempted too self terminate and failed when she was left with no other options.
Thank you for your very valid points, its nice to be met by someone whose first instinct is to come up with a calm, reasonable counter argument.
The argument for the homeless person was more to say that I don't owe anything to the homeless person in order to refute the general suggestion to adopt if I have a problem with abortion. A substitution for the argument that you are saying could be other categories like women, or blacks. I do not represent any of these groups but I would still try to see fair treatment for them because I see them as humans.
I think you raise a good point with the animals and it becomes a difficult point to argue for what constitutes fair treatment. I think the simplest way we've overcome this in the past is by resorting to placing humans in their own category and having their preservation placed above other animals even when factors like awareness are involved (an adult dog being more aware than an unborn child). I am more on the side that because animals have such capacity to suffer we should put more laws in place to protect them from suffering and that would hopefully help with removing most cases where euthanisia is considered necessary.
There is certainly grey area with the treatment of animals and it can be hard for people to accept that they have mistreated their animal, but many of these grey cases do not translate to humans very well. Things like putting the dog down due to overcrowding or because you don't want to pay their medical bills would sound very harsh applied to people. You may also say that not everyone who kills someone else is wrong or a bad person. Self defence or the defence of another are also cases of justified homicide. What is important is not whether or not such grey areas exist, but to what extent we can separate the important factors so we minimize homicides while protecting those which are justified.
I wasn't asking you to prove something for the sake of the law I was saying that if you wanted your post to change the mind of someone like me then you would not be successful unless you could prove that element of my argument wrong.
Abortion being murder is not my opinion it is a matter of definitions. The general scientific concensus is that life begins at conception and the termination of that life would constitute homicide. I think there exists some cases where it can be justified, but whether or not it is the ending of a human's life by the decision of another human is not my opinion it is the construction of the words I think.
I appreciate what you said about wanting for more strict regulation because I think that we maybe have more common ground that I initially thought reading your posts not that that has any bearing on whether or not either of us is right in what we are saying.
I like your breakdown about the different stages of human development in utero but I don't think that there is that much of a big debate about when human life starts. From what I have been able to find and read from American medical colleges and the Americano association of pediatrics life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. The one cell zygote is considered at that point to be a new human life. I won't say that this answer fully satisfies me about everything because it doesn't but it is not something I or members of the medical community contest.
https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
:https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins
I think the medication you are referring to is called plan b and it is an emergency contraceptive that actually only works if taken before the the zygote has embedded in the wall. There are other forms of medication for initiating miscarriages but I think they are a bit less common. If you don't think it is murder I would think that you would want the woman to experience the least pain that is necessary rather than wanting to them to suffer.
The idea of forcing someone to carry to term is very painful and difficult. The way that I look at it is if someone got in a fight then they would need to heal after their fight. No one is forcing them to heal it is just a consequence of what they initiated. If someone signs a contract then they are compelled to follow that contract. You wouldn't say that someone is forced or unlawfully coerced into fulfilling their contract because it was something they signed. In this same way I would say that a woman who consented to everything leading up to the pregnancy consented to the pregnancy itself and her carrying it to term is like her fulfilling her contract to the human being that she now protects.
I don't believe that we should be making this argument that the woman has no other option after she becomes pregnant because it is not fair to the child to decide she isn't now responsible for the options she ignored before she played a role in it's creation. If someone makes decisions that reduce their number of decisions then they have no one to blame but themselves and we should not pity them when they make a bad decision because of their lack of options now. For whatever pleasure she had in that moment she'd condemn another human to a lifetime of pain or a short and brutal death.
I'd thank you for your general calm and reasoned arguments. It is not an easy thing for anyone to talk about and usually the person I'm debating doesn't make it easier. It is kind of fun that people like you and me can meet here to talk about this thing though.
I can understand your point that you don't owe it to children too help them because you are pro-life, I wasn't really saying that merely saying that if your biggest concern was for the well being of children your time might be better severed helping the ones who are less fortunate currently than protesting at clinics.
Honestly going into the animals comparison I didn't really like it, since it's pretty easy too say well animals and humans are two different things. First off II'd like too say no, human beings are animals just as much as any other, we just like to think we're not but we all feel pain and want to live but that's a different argument. I just used it because I though it was the closest resemblance. I also considered comparing it too circumcision, I believe it's wrong to circumcise a child, they have no say in it and it does effect them for life after all. It is also heavily tied to religion just on the opposite side and like abortion I don't think parents who circumcise their children are necessarily bad people, just misinformed.
Then I thought maybe it's closer to unresponsive patients on life support who also have no will. Like an unborn child they potentially are not responsible for the situation and their life is the responsibility of someone else. Most people consider someone truly beyond coming back once they have no brain activity. Similarly I believe human life begins with the first brain waves. I feel like this is a pretty fair comparison as it too is something considered to be in a morally grey area. If someone is considered medically brain dead is it murder to take them off life support? I believe it is not.
I understand what you were asking me to prove and generally speaking you would be in the category of people I would think too be most difficult too sway to my side since you are already set in your viewpoint as I am set in mine, so if i could convince you I would be very surprised, the people who we are actually debating for here are all the people on the fence about this topic, not each other. You and I actually do have a pretty similar viewpoint, I don't think an abortion is something you should be proud of or brag about, or even something you should want to do, if someone had other options I would heavily encourage them to explore them before making any final decisions. I just think in the end that decision should be up to them.
I can agree with you that one human killing another is in most cases considered murder. We really only disagree on what is considered human life. You believe human life begins at fertilization, that and the heartbeat I would say are the most popular for people who are pro-life and its a pretty sound argument. You say its proven human life begins at conception but I disagree and even the Princeton article you linked doesn't actually say "Human life begins at conception" It says life begins at conception and human development begins at conception, it also says all animal life and development begins at conception. Here are a couple quotes from your article that emphasize my point that where exactly human life begins is still a grey area.
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
II cant disagree that new life of some form happens at the moment of conception but im not really sure it could be considered human life so much as something that has the capacity too become human life. That comes down to what do I consider to be human. Ive thought about it and too me being human is a combination of being self-aware and knowing you want to/do exist. You have to have Thought to be human. Yes a single cell zygote is alive but all of the cells in your body are alive and they carry human dna but they are not human life. All mammalian embryos look the same for the beginning stages of development and a recognizable human isn't seen until weeks into the pregnancy. The beginning stages are more the development of the framework for a human, the internal organs. As I said in my previous post the heart beat isn't until week 7, I think we can agree that something with out a heartbeat is not considered to be alive in most cases and honestly I don't think the heartbeat is where human life begins, all animals have a heartbeat. Week 10 is when I would say "Human life" begins, or more specifically the exact moment in development of the embryo when the very first brain wave starts. That spark, that very first thought is what I would call the beginning of a new human, an individual and unique consciousness or soul what ever you want to call it. A person.
Plan B is something entirely different, as you said it blocks a pregnancy from happening if taken quickly enough, it wont terminate a pregnancy. The medication Im referring too is called RU486 or mifepristone, it blocks the hormone progesterone which the pregnancy needs to grow, it essentially causes a miscarriage. it is taken in conjunction with misoprostol, this causes the uterus to begin contractions to assist with expelling the pregnancy and is also commonly given to women who suffer from natural pregnancy to assist them in the same way. it is a fairly common method of abortion and is usually only administered until week 8 to 10, after that a surgical abortion is necessary for the safety of the woman. I don't think women should have to take this because I want them to suffer or experience pain. I think this because A) I want them to have the least stressful time of it and I think taking the pill vs surgical overall feels more like a natural miscarriage and can help her with guilt if she has it and it also allows her to experience it in her own home, potentially with family or friends to support her, which is over all more comfortable than a doctors office B) because the pill takes time vs surgical and I think any woman who has an abortion should have a period of time after when she reflects on what brought her to that point, how she feels about it and what changes she could make too grow as a person. the cramping is mild mostly like a severe menstrual cramp and just ensures that for a couple weeks she isn't going to be having intercourse and can get on a proper birth control regimen that's what i meant by physical repercussion, no sex, the wording there was off i admit.
I wouldn't deny someone who was in a fight medical care if it would speed their recovery process, just like I wouldn't deny a woman the option to quickly resolve a mistake she made. Too the contrary people make cases that themselves or others were forced or coerced into signing a contract all the time it's referred to as signing under duress. It is entirely possible that a woman was manipulated into getting pregnant, maybe by a man who said he would raise a child with her and then left or by a guy she had a one night stand with who took off the condom when she wasn't paying attention, it happens.
Again I'm not saying someone should have an abortion, I think other options should be made available too them so they can decide whats right for them. But if you take away the option of abortion you are leaving a lot of women in a situation where they will feel trapped and like they have no other options and people who feel trapped do desperate and stupid things. Personally I think its much better to have the option available early on so when the girl finds out its not something that is immediately irreversible. Rather she has multiple choices and can take a little time at least to process whats happening, most women when given options and support will not choose to have an abortion.
Not all of my stance on abortion comes from wanting to help women who have made mistakes unfortunately, some of it is also cold and logical and this next part isn't going to be something most people want to hear but it is part of why im pro choice and it would be misleading to tell only half of why I believe what I do. The second part of why I'm pro choice is because im anti crime. Sadly most women who have an abortion are also the most likely to raise a child in a broken home if they were too have one. lower to middle class single mother minorities are the most likely to have abortions, they are also the most likely to raise a child who will grow up undisciplined and underprivileged and is likely to end up being convicted of a crime. This thing is tending too run on so I wont post a long explanation, just a link to someone who can explain the theory better than I can but its something to consider.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w8004.pdf
They're vile towards fellow deaf people who get cochlear implants. Apparently being deaf is much more disconnecting from normal society than being blind (talking, not sight, is the main connection people have). This documentary about it is disturbing: Sound and Fury.
Some people are deaf to the insults, name calling and protests against them. That's why you would have to use sign language for them to understand. Good luck.
Ya just dust this account off to come here and blackpill? Naw, you bruteforced the password of a long-abandoned account to come here and blackpill... KYS and do a flip faggot.
Nah it's just an old account that I don't use often because I have a life outside of the internet. Mostly go on fph honestly but every once in awhile I venture out. Glad to see the goats are still as welcoming about free speech as their counterparts to the left over at Reddit. I have a different opinion so i must be blackpilling. You can check out my history and see the number of downvoats I've given. That whole 8 is for spam. If you have a dissenting opinion feel free to post about it, I'm not going to downvoat you, i believe in an equal speaking platform for everyone, the more information the better, then people can make their own informed opinions. You can look at my recent comments yeah some are pro-choice but its a hot topic right now and there are alot of women out there that don't really represent my view when it comes down to it so II like to make my voice heard otherwise the only people representing my view are leftists and feminists and I don't agree with them and don't really want them representing the whole pro-choice movement, so here we are.
I think we need to get smart and wake up. Abortion is not wrong per se. It is wrong in all cases for white parents. I am all for legislation against whites for abortion, whilst supporting the right of blacks/ethnics to abort.
This was used on the sign language page but they removed it. Look below the vid. They note the removal. Hurry before they remove the note and pretend this was never there.
I don't want to be that nigger but can anyone else attest to this as true or show some form of confirmation? Not that I don't trust @shadow332 I just want to get a second opinion before I start sending this shit to my friends.
Here's one. It makes sense. I guess technically it's baby and remove/abort. Here's the hand sign for remove:https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=4197
Deplorabelle ago
There’s a reason liberals don’t want pregnant women to view ultrasounds, because something like 70% decide not to abort. If you’ve never been pregnant - I can’t explain it. I saw my first on US at 5 w 4 d, and there was nothing much to see. He looked like a grain of rice, but she showed me his heartbeat, and it was just fluttering on the scre n. And then I heard it. It made me cry. He was so, so tiny, with such a big, strong heart. And, he had everything in place to be who he is today. His chromosomes haven’t changed - and the world is a better place because he’s here. If I aborted him, it wouldn’t be a cluster of cells I discarded, it would be my son. I would have stopped that beautiful heartbeat I longed to see and hear after my miscarriage. He was and is a person. As are all of my children. And so are all of the children murdered by abortion.
The idea of making it illegal making it less safe is ridiculous. It would make women responsible and accountable For their behavior and decisions. Women are using abortion as birth control and as a tool for promiscuity. No, men don’t own women’s bodies, but it was in the past and should be now, that sex was for marriage or at least love, and women and men both had a stake in the pregnancy. Men stood up and raised the child and created a family.
This is a society problem. And, don’t give me rape/incest/whatever- that is something like less than 5% of all abortions, and there could be specially trained doctors and psychologists to help these women in these circumstances.
18788978? ago
And the Australian version http://www.auslan.org.au/dictionary/words/abortion-1.html note no baby part in this version.
shadow332 ago
Did I write Australian Sign Language or did I write American Sign Language? You might want to have a look at which language I posted. There are no "versions" of sign language.
18791718? ago
No, unbunch your panties! Just wanted to share the Australian sign for it. Sorry if my version of English offened you.
Is American English a version of English or its own language?
shadow332 ago
Ok, sorry, I get touchy with the subject, because sign lanaguages are just so misunderstood by the hearing. American English is a dialect of English. Some sign languages are related based on who and where they were created. Sign lanaguges also have dialects.
18791905? ago
Just wanted to point out American sign language had two parts and Auslan had a very similar sign to the second half of the American one.
Snuggle-Bunny ago
abortion = murder of life and innocence
KendellTellsLies ago
If you are against abortions don't have one, it's a pretty simple concept. Just like mind your own business is also a simple concept.
Heathcliff ago
Everything should be legal: murder, rape, theft, shitting in the middle of the street. If you are against it, just don't do it.
KendellTellsLies ago
Or you could try to change it inn a productive way, like voting for a candidate who supports your beliefs or donating to a cause that is like minded. Remind me again how screaming in girls faces about how they are going to burn in hell as they walk into a clinic changes anything.
LoneCipher ago
Calm your tits baby-killer.
KendellTellsLies ago
I've had one pregnancy in my life and it ended in a natural miscarriage. After that my s.o. and I decided we didn't want children so he had a vasectomy. We went with him over me because the procedure for men is less invasive with a faster recovery and also has the possibility of being reversed(not 100% guaranteed, but still better chances than a woman for reversing it) in case we do decide to have children later in life.
Not all people who are pro-choice are feminists who think it''s ok to have multiple abortions because they didn't feel like taking the pill, not all people who are pro-choice have had an abortion. Some people who are pro-choice just understand that sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes carrying a child full term can be a difficult thing, especially for a young girl who my not have the support of the father or even her own family and you cant force someone to carry a child for 9 months, if they don't want it and are desperate enough they will find the means on their own at greater risk to themselves and the child. If you take all the options away that's when you get things like girls dying from trying to self terminate or having children born with physical and/mental handicap's because the mother tried to self terminate and failed.
Impasse ago
Thank you for writing so much about this topic
Don't mention your miscarriage or husband's vasectomy in a debate about abortion because they are unrelated.
I don't owe anything to a homeless person, but I would oppose a law that legalized the murder of homeless people. If you were in favor of that law you'd be in favor of murdering homeless people. My opposal of that law does not make me owe anything to homeless people. In the same way I don't owe things to orphans because I oppose the murder of children.
Abortion is wrong because it is murder not because I don't like it. If you want me to agree with you then you have to prove that it is not the murder of a human being.
The law wouldn't force anyone to carry the pregnancy to term. All the decisions were made before the pregnancy. The laws would suggest that once a child is concieved it is a human and cannot be killed. If you oppose that then prove it is not a human or that the murder is justified.
Murdering someone often invites risk to the murderer. This is not the fault of the law that forbids murder. This is the fault of the individual that decides to engage in the act. In the same way the woman who decides to attempt self termination is responsible and not the law.
Let me know what you goats think.
KendellTellsLies ago
The part about my miscarriage was a reply to the comment above it and not part of any debate but you're right that the two are unrelated.
If there were a law making it legal to murder homeless people it would still personally effect you more than legalized abortion as if you were too ever become homeless you would be eligible for murder yourself. As this is something that also would effect your right too live free it is something you should have a say in. Personally I don't like to compare abortion to other things that are legal or illegal as I think it stands in a category of its own morally but it I were to compare it too something it would probably be closest to euthanasia of animals. The animal has no say on whether it gets to live or die. It is legal to murder your dog. I don't like the fact that it's legal or that anyone can walk into a vet with an animal and say they would like to have it put to sleep and some vets will do it without question. I don't however think it should be completely illegal, I do think there should be a little more regulation on when you can and can't have your pet put down. I don't think everyone who put a pet to sleep is wrong or a bad person, I do think some people abuse the system and are wrong.
Abortion being murder is your opinion and I'm probably not going to change your mind about that but for the sake of argument I'll try to argue for at what point i think abortion should no longer be legal. So, too start with murder is the killing of another human being so the question here is at what point to we consider an embryo a human. Some people argue the point of conception or the heartbeat. So there is the big debate. The facts are this: week 4 the embryo is the size of a grain of rice and still forming bodily systems; Week 6 the embryo starts secreting hormones to block the mothers menstrual cycle; week 7 the embryo develops a heartbeat; week 10 the brain has active brain waves. So where in there do you consider human life to be. Personally I think 2nd and 3rd trimester abortion should be illegal except in cases where carrying to term could kill the mother, as far as first trimester goes, by week four an woman should suspect shes pregnant, by week six she should know and that's also when her own body will start to secrete the hormones needed too keep the pregnancy, so that's my cut off. After that somewhere in between 7 and 10 is where i think human life begins, once brain waves start that's it. II also don't think surgical abortion should be a thing except again, in extreme cases. I think the woman who gets an abortion should take the pill which causes her body to miscarry, i cant remember the name off hand, then they miscarry at home over the course of weeks like a natural miscarriage and are faced directly with physical consequences to their choice as opposed to being put under in a chair for 5 to 10 mins and continuing the day moderately fine. If it was made a law that a woman had to submit too test's before an abortion to see if the fetus had a heartbeat and/or brain waves and if so she would be refused that abortion, I would be okay with that.
The law would force any woman who became pregnant not too seek action to terminate that pregnancy by extension forcing her to carry said pregnancy to term, you can argue it was her fault for getting pregnant and you would be right but it doesn't change the fact that you would still be forcing her to carry to term at that point.
You are correct, any act of violence invites violence in return and arguably impacts the person doing the violence as negatively as the victim. You are also right that it is not the fault of the law if a woman who tries to self terminate kills herself in the process, it is also not the fault of the child born disabled because their mother attempted too self terminate and failed when she was left with no other options.
Thank you for your very valid points, its nice to be met by someone whose first instinct is to come up with a calm, reasonable counter argument.
Impasse ago
The argument for the homeless person was more to say that I don't owe anything to the homeless person in order to refute the general suggestion to adopt if I have a problem with abortion. A substitution for the argument that you are saying could be other categories like women, or blacks. I do not represent any of these groups but I would still try to see fair treatment for them because I see them as humans.
I think you raise a good point with the animals and it becomes a difficult point to argue for what constitutes fair treatment. I think the simplest way we've overcome this in the past is by resorting to placing humans in their own category and having their preservation placed above other animals even when factors like awareness are involved (an adult dog being more aware than an unborn child). I am more on the side that because animals have such capacity to suffer we should put more laws in place to protect them from suffering and that would hopefully help with removing most cases where euthanisia is considered necessary.
There is certainly grey area with the treatment of animals and it can be hard for people to accept that they have mistreated their animal, but many of these grey cases do not translate to humans very well. Things like putting the dog down due to overcrowding or because you don't want to pay their medical bills would sound very harsh applied to people. You may also say that not everyone who kills someone else is wrong or a bad person. Self defence or the defence of another are also cases of justified homicide. What is important is not whether or not such grey areas exist, but to what extent we can separate the important factors so we minimize homicides while protecting those which are justified.
I wasn't asking you to prove something for the sake of the law I was saying that if you wanted your post to change the mind of someone like me then you would not be successful unless you could prove that element of my argument wrong.
Abortion being murder is not my opinion it is a matter of definitions. The general scientific concensus is that life begins at conception and the termination of that life would constitute homicide. I think there exists some cases where it can be justified, but whether or not it is the ending of a human's life by the decision of another human is not my opinion it is the construction of the words I think.
I appreciate what you said about wanting for more strict regulation because I think that we maybe have more common ground that I initially thought reading your posts not that that has any bearing on whether or not either of us is right in what we are saying.
I like your breakdown about the different stages of human development in utero but I don't think that there is that much of a big debate about when human life starts. From what I have been able to find and read from American medical colleges and the Americano association of pediatrics life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. The one cell zygote is considered at that point to be a new human life. I won't say that this answer fully satisfies me about everything because it doesn't but it is not something I or members of the medical community contest. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html :https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins
I think the medication you are referring to is called plan b and it is an emergency contraceptive that actually only works if taken before the the zygote has embedded in the wall. There are other forms of medication for initiating miscarriages but I think they are a bit less common. If you don't think it is murder I would think that you would want the woman to experience the least pain that is necessary rather than wanting to them to suffer.
The idea of forcing someone to carry to term is very painful and difficult. The way that I look at it is if someone got in a fight then they would need to heal after their fight. No one is forcing them to heal it is just a consequence of what they initiated. If someone signs a contract then they are compelled to follow that contract. You wouldn't say that someone is forced or unlawfully coerced into fulfilling their contract because it was something they signed. In this same way I would say that a woman who consented to everything leading up to the pregnancy consented to the pregnancy itself and her carrying it to term is like her fulfilling her contract to the human being that she now protects.
I don't believe that we should be making this argument that the woman has no other option after she becomes pregnant because it is not fair to the child to decide she isn't now responsible for the options she ignored before she played a role in it's creation. If someone makes decisions that reduce their number of decisions then they have no one to blame but themselves and we should not pity them when they make a bad decision because of their lack of options now. For whatever pleasure she had in that moment she'd condemn another human to a lifetime of pain or a short and brutal death.
I'd thank you for your general calm and reasoned arguments. It is not an easy thing for anyone to talk about and usually the person I'm debating doesn't make it easier. It is kind of fun that people like you and me can meet here to talk about this thing though.
KendellTellsLies ago
I can understand your point that you don't owe it to children too help them because you are pro-life, I wasn't really saying that merely saying that if your biggest concern was for the well being of children your time might be better severed helping the ones who are less fortunate currently than protesting at clinics.
Honestly going into the animals comparison I didn't really like it, since it's pretty easy too say well animals and humans are two different things. First off II'd like too say no, human beings are animals just as much as any other, we just like to think we're not but we all feel pain and want to live but that's a different argument. I just used it because I though it was the closest resemblance. I also considered comparing it too circumcision, I believe it's wrong to circumcise a child, they have no say in it and it does effect them for life after all. It is also heavily tied to religion just on the opposite side and like abortion I don't think parents who circumcise their children are necessarily bad people, just misinformed.
Then I thought maybe it's closer to unresponsive patients on life support who also have no will. Like an unborn child they potentially are not responsible for the situation and their life is the responsibility of someone else. Most people consider someone truly beyond coming back once they have no brain activity. Similarly I believe human life begins with the first brain waves. I feel like this is a pretty fair comparison as it too is something considered to be in a morally grey area. If someone is considered medically brain dead is it murder to take them off life support? I believe it is not.
I understand what you were asking me to prove and generally speaking you would be in the category of people I would think too be most difficult too sway to my side since you are already set in your viewpoint as I am set in mine, so if i could convince you I would be very surprised, the people who we are actually debating for here are all the people on the fence about this topic, not each other. You and I actually do have a pretty similar viewpoint, I don't think an abortion is something you should be proud of or brag about, or even something you should want to do, if someone had other options I would heavily encourage them to explore them before making any final decisions. I just think in the end that decision should be up to them.
I can agree with you that one human killing another is in most cases considered murder. We really only disagree on what is considered human life. You believe human life begins at fertilization, that and the heartbeat I would say are the most popular for people who are pro-life and its a pretty sound argument. You say its proven human life begins at conception but I disagree and even the Princeton article you linked doesn't actually say "Human life begins at conception" It says life begins at conception and human development begins at conception, it also says all animal life and development begins at conception. Here are a couple quotes from your article that emphasize my point that where exactly human life begins is still a grey area. "Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being." [Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2] "Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy." [Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
II cant disagree that new life of some form happens at the moment of conception but im not really sure it could be considered human life so much as something that has the capacity too become human life. That comes down to what do I consider to be human. Ive thought about it and too me being human is a combination of being self-aware and knowing you want to/do exist. You have to have Thought to be human. Yes a single cell zygote is alive but all of the cells in your body are alive and they carry human dna but they are not human life. All mammalian embryos look the same for the beginning stages of development and a recognizable human isn't seen until weeks into the pregnancy. The beginning stages are more the development of the framework for a human, the internal organs. As I said in my previous post the heart beat isn't until week 7, I think we can agree that something with out a heartbeat is not considered to be alive in most cases and honestly I don't think the heartbeat is where human life begins, all animals have a heartbeat. Week 10 is when I would say "Human life" begins, or more specifically the exact moment in development of the embryo when the very first brain wave starts. That spark, that very first thought is what I would call the beginning of a new human, an individual and unique consciousness or soul what ever you want to call it. A person.
Plan B is something entirely different, as you said it blocks a pregnancy from happening if taken quickly enough, it wont terminate a pregnancy. The medication Im referring too is called RU486 or mifepristone, it blocks the hormone progesterone which the pregnancy needs to grow, it essentially causes a miscarriage. it is taken in conjunction with misoprostol, this causes the uterus to begin contractions to assist with expelling the pregnancy and is also commonly given to women who suffer from natural pregnancy to assist them in the same way. it is a fairly common method of abortion and is usually only administered until week 8 to 10, after that a surgical abortion is necessary for the safety of the woman. I don't think women should have to take this because I want them to suffer or experience pain. I think this because A) I want them to have the least stressful time of it and I think taking the pill vs surgical overall feels more like a natural miscarriage and can help her with guilt if she has it and it also allows her to experience it in her own home, potentially with family or friends to support her, which is over all more comfortable than a doctors office B) because the pill takes time vs surgical and I think any woman who has an abortion should have a period of time after when she reflects on what brought her to that point, how she feels about it and what changes she could make too grow as a person. the cramping is mild mostly like a severe menstrual cramp and just ensures that for a couple weeks she isn't going to be having intercourse and can get on a proper birth control regimen that's what i meant by physical repercussion, no sex, the wording there was off i admit.
I wouldn't deny someone who was in a fight medical care if it would speed their recovery process, just like I wouldn't deny a woman the option to quickly resolve a mistake she made. Too the contrary people make cases that themselves or others were forced or coerced into signing a contract all the time it's referred to as signing under duress. It is entirely possible that a woman was manipulated into getting pregnant, maybe by a man who said he would raise a child with her and then left or by a guy she had a one night stand with who took off the condom when she wasn't paying attention, it happens.
Again I'm not saying someone should have an abortion, I think other options should be made available too them so they can decide whats right for them. But if you take away the option of abortion you are leaving a lot of women in a situation where they will feel trapped and like they have no other options and people who feel trapped do desperate and stupid things. Personally I think its much better to have the option available early on so when the girl finds out its not something that is immediately irreversible. Rather she has multiple choices and can take a little time at least to process whats happening, most women when given options and support will not choose to have an abortion.
Not all of my stance on abortion comes from wanting to help women who have made mistakes unfortunately, some of it is also cold and logical and this next part isn't going to be something most people want to hear but it is part of why im pro choice and it would be misleading to tell only half of why I believe what I do. The second part of why I'm pro choice is because im anti crime. Sadly most women who have an abortion are also the most likely to raise a child in a broken home if they were too have one. lower to middle class single mother minorities are the most likely to have abortions, they are also the most likely to raise a child who will grow up undisciplined and underprivileged and is likely to end up being convicted of a crime. This thing is tending too run on so I wont post a long explanation, just a link to someone who can explain the theory better than I can but its something to consider. https://www.nber.org/papers/w8004.pdf
Jeww ago
It looks like these questioning the nature of abortion during the last gesture.
My_Name_is_Not_Sure ago
The hands don’t lie.
lord_nougat ago
SPLAT!
BoraxTheFungarian ago
Go look up Pasteurized Milk... I 100% believe it because deaf people are total shitlords.
Ocelot ago
Deaf people are also complete assholes, and not in the good way.
prairie ago
They're vile towards fellow deaf people who get cochlear implants. Apparently being deaf is much more disconnecting from normal society than being blind (talking, not sight, is the main connection people have). This documentary about it is disturbing: Sound and Fury.
Ocelot ago
I've heard about that, yeah. They're also arrogant about being deaf in general.
Interesting thought. Curious how lack of sight is much more debilitating in terms of ease of living, but deafness is much more socially debilitating.
Wiserman ago
Some people are deaf to the insults, name calling and protests against them. That's why you would have to use sign language for them to understand. Good luck.
ALIENS2222 ago
My son is asleep on my lap right now... This is the saddest thing ever.
KendellTellsLies ago
How is it sad, it's a word?
ALIENS2222 ago
Ya just dust this account off to come here and blackpill? Naw, you bruteforced the password of a long-abandoned account to come here and blackpill... KYS and do a flip faggot.
KendellTellsLies ago
Nah it's just an old account that I don't use often because I have a life outside of the internet. Mostly go on fph honestly but every once in awhile I venture out. Glad to see the goats are still as welcoming about free speech as their counterparts to the left over at Reddit. I have a different opinion so i must be blackpilling. You can check out my history and see the number of downvoats I've given. That whole 8 is for spam. If you have a dissenting opinion feel free to post about it, I'm not going to downvoat you, i believe in an equal speaking platform for everyone, the more information the better, then people can make their own informed opinions. You can look at my recent comments yeah some are pro-choice but its a hot topic right now and there are alot of women out there that don't really represent my view when it comes down to it so II like to make my voice heard otherwise the only people representing my view are leftists and feminists and I don't agree with them and don't really want them representing the whole pro-choice movement, so here we are.
britt121 ago
Yeah, I'm nursing a newborn while my toddler cuddles me on the other side. This is super sad indeed
Adrianmc ago
I think we need to get smart and wake up. Abortion is not wrong per se. It is wrong in all cases for white parents. I am all for legislation against whites for abortion, whilst supporting the right of blacks/ethnics to abort.
prairie ago
Whites just have to stop self-genociding.
Adrianmc ago
...and may I add, compulsory for (((some)))?
Steinmacher ago
this should be the sign for liberalism and feminism as well...
prairie ago
"We accommodated you but now you're going in the trash."
Heathcliff ago
This was used on the sign language page but they removed it. Look below the vid. They note the removal. Hurry before they remove the note and pretend this was never there.
https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=4374
DintDoNothin ago
And look at her smile as she does that
3dk ago
http://archive.is/sqFkr
Afrowasp1 ago
Wow. Now cultural marxists will have to weaponise sign language too. Honk
BitChuteArchive ago
https://www.bitchute.com/video/qY1CblzF20J5
CatsControlTheEU ago
I don't want to be that nigger but can anyone else attest to this as true or show some form of confirmation? Not that I don't trust @shadow332 I just want to get a second opinion before I start sending this shit to my friends.
shadow332 ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuntOqfuiqg
It's ok, @CatsControlTheEU. I appreciate you asking for a source and fact-checking.
ThatsAFatBitch ago
The signs involved to make “abortion” are “baby” and “trash,” FYI. If you wanted even more reason to laugh or feel disgusted
Ocelot ago
Disgusted? I dunno, I rather appreciate the honesty. At least it's not like "woman" and "free".
copper_spartan ago
I'm sure they're cooking up ASL 2.0 with leftist revisions like that.
toobaditworks ago
Don't give them any ideas.
TheAntiZealot ago
Must be emphasized. Because this is, in fact, "clown world." Or, more accurately, Communist World.
Heathcliff ago
Does it matter if this true? Just spread it around. Most people will believe it even if it isn't true so it advances the message true or false.
shadow332 ago
No, I don't want to spread false info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuntOqfuiqg
vtusr ago
Is male genital mutilation also true?
https://voat.co/v/GreatAwakening/3208705
StrangeThingsAfoot ago
That's SJW thinking at its finest.
Heathcliff ago
Yeah, it's why they win. Enjoy the high ground. Your children will live in a shithole because you took it.
RockmanRaiden ago
Exactly.
VicariousJambi ago
Nothing wrong with wanting a fact check!
HndrxMn ago
Nothing wrong with doing a little research either.
onikage ago
It is true. Just search "ASL Abortion" and there are multiple site showing the same.
CameraCode0 ago
https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=4374
Here's one. It makes sense. I guess technically it's baby and remove/abort. Here's the hand sign for remove:https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=4197
Anam ago
Here's the handsign for remove kebab:
https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=1947
vtusr2 ago
Wow, I already knew that. 😃
Can also be used to remove (((jew))) I guess.
https://voat.co/v/GreatAwakening/3208705
CatsControlTheEU ago
Thanks, I found it. good shit.