Show them the Border Patrol stats - they're catching about 40K invaders a month - how many aren't they catching? How many are murderers, rapists, gang members? How many are pregnant women coming to pop out an anchor baby? And whatever their status - 100% of them are illegally invading the US.
Also, that "overstay visa" narrative leftists spout is total bullshit.
And I also remember another Brit - Jude Law - going down to a migrant camp to "help" them and he nearly ended up getting his ass kicked. Actors are some of the worst hypocrites.
Your family isn't really brainwashed. They know that these people are liberal voters or future liberal voters, they'll support them no matter what they do.
The real problem is not fucking POOR MEXICANS its the fucking ZIONIST JEWS! that are destroying this country... ive heard illigal mexicans cost us 100 billion a year the fucking bankster jew war the last 17 years has cost us 6 trillion plus dollars and its still going!
I wish people would take a page from Yuri and realize that you can't argue facts with demoralized people. You have to have a better narrative. Fanatics are not swayed by facts.
Does it make you feel better about your self saying that some one does not know their own positions? Because honestly you sound like a retard virtue signaling like that.
I know I believed in Santa most before I understood him. I still believe, but in a collaborative way. I can't be taken up in weightless belief, I am a pallbearer bound by constraints which remind me that ideas do not have a life of their own.
You'll never get anywhere arguing against a group. They are feeding off of each other. You need to take them on one by one; find which issue they are most impassioned about, get information to counter their beliefs/narratives and then present said information to them for discussion. You may have to do this over and over again—slowly chipping away at their defenses using different counterpoints and techniques.
Most people don't have the patience to do this and thus are ineffectual. I've red-pilled many people in my life using these tactics. Sometimes it has taken years. The key is not to get upset and get into a shouting match. Think of yourself as a farmer planting seeds—not all will germinate, but some will take root.
Something that will actually help is researching sales strategies and then modifying them to suit your needs. Salespeople are master persuaders—their livelihood depends on it. Trump is an excellent example.
It sounds more like you just don't like being confronted with facts that challenge your world view.
All of the estimates of illegal immigration show it has being trending down in recent years. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to want more border security! But let's at least have an honest debate about it, using actual facts.
Similarly, illegal immigrants commit crimes (other than illegal entry) at a lower rate than native born citizens. Yes, obviously they've committed a crime by entering the country illegally. But Trump talks about them being rapists and murders and drug dealers, and the data just doesn't support that claim.
How is it dishonest or misleading to point out basic facts like that?
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They queue jumped in front of legitimate migrants who jumped through all the hoops to gain a visa to the US. They are entitled pieces of shit who think the rules don't apply to them. That is a fact.
Fuck them, and kick them the fuck out of the US. If you want to go to the US - go legally.
Oh, they don't have the requirements to do so, you say? Not our fucking problem.
If you trust the statistics (((they))) give then you are a fucking retard. Everyone knows the government bureaucracies, universities, international NGOs, etc. are all still filled with leftist ideologues. Why the fuck would THEY tell you the truth?
I agree with some of what you pointed out. Some of this is a rebuttal to what you posted and some of it is just my own thoughts on the topic.
What about tax evasion, various forms of tax fraud and numerous forms welfare fraud? Are those crimes on your list too? How many times have we seen whole sheets of 'white' people arrested for crimes. Do these get reported as illegal immigrant crimes or are they crimes committed by 'whites?" I haven't looked up the answer but I've seen enough to know the way crime stats are reported in this country are dishonest to say the least.
From my experience most illegals are hard working. Most move here to better themselves and their families. You get all types that come here. I don't blame them or their families but this system takes advantage of the US taxpayer. We have enough strain on our resources, enough homeless, enough problems with our social security system and public education. These socialist ideas cannot work under a dysfunctional immigration system.
If Americans want these people here then they should be legal and documented. They should not be exposed to unsafe work environments, unsafe trips here, not able to apply for certain jobs and not eligible for promotions at certain jobs because of them being undocumented. Americans shouldn't have to pay for illegal children to go to schools, feed their kids or pay for all their hospital visits. I could go on and on about the social security and foodstamps...
The thing is, we have enough criminals here of all types. We have enough people here on welfare. We don't need more. Whether we need engineers, doctors, construction workers or workers in the agriculture industry they need to come in legally.
Don't even get me started on how WRONG every census I've seen on illegals is. They claimed there were 2,000 in the city I live in. I could go down to one factory and find you more than that. Whether you like the president or not, the electoral college or not, he was elected and elected on this issue. We can argue over numbers all day but we all know how to look outside our windows. The American people should decide who does and doesn't get to come here and contribute. We should own this country. It is an issue of ownership.
I think it's a complicated issue that deserves a serious solution. I don't support "open borders" and most Democrats don't either. And I would be fine spending more money to make border security more effective in exchange for some more substantive reforms to our immigration system.
And I agree with you that illegal immigrants are at risk of exploitation, and that's a real problem. I also think some tech companies exploit H-1B visas to hire cheaper foreign workers when they could hire Americans. And part of the reason they can exploit the foreign workers is because they control their status in the country (if they leave the job, they could get kicked out of the country). So there are real problems with the system!
That said, I don't see how shutting down the government over $5 billion for a "wall" is going to solve these problems. And Democrats aren't going to just give Trump what he wants for nothing. That's not how negotiations work. He can stomp his feet all he wants, but he needs to offer them something in return.
The country brought immigration, both legal and illegal almost to a halt 1920-70s. That's 50 years. We saw the middle class flourish. I'm not claiming that was the only reason. All you have to do is fine businesses that hire illegals. The walls are there to stop fully automatic machine guns, vehicles and RPGs from hitting border towns in the states. A wall or fence along the whole border would be more of a symbol than anything. It is about a movement towards fixing this immigration system. It has been done in this country's past. It can be done again. Look at states and cities right now that just invite everyone in that wants in be they homeless or Mexican or Venezuelan. Look at the poverty levels in CA, the poorest state in the country now. Look at LA. Look at what is happening to San Francisco. The empirical evidence is before you and it is real time. The more people you invite in, the less you do to control illegal immigration, the more of it you're going to have. It's really that simple. We see it playing out in cities and states across the country. The difference is clear.
I know a thing or two about Visas. It's isn't just corporations bringing in foreign workers. Often the tax payer foots the bill for it. We pay to train and bring in people to take our IT jobs. I have personally seen it at more than a few companies.
Please stop saying things like "most democrats don't want open borders either" Look at the leadership of the Democratic Party. They coined the phrase "open borders." Except that phrase is misleading because the only borders open are ours. Just like when they say "no human is illegal" except they have no desire to legalize everyone. Neither do the Neo Cons because that isn't what big business wants.
For you to outline how negotiation works and then say that isn't how it works doesn't make any sense. He's offered plenty in return. Look at the spending bill. Regardless of how this plays out, that's how the process takes place. In this country's history fining businesses for hiring illegals has been shown to be effective. The border fence or border wall can be effective, especially when combined with things like more border patrol agents, drones and ICE, all of which Trump is trying to get funded.
What exactly has he offered in return? Keeping the government open is not a gift to Democrats, that's just the basic responsibility of public officials. And the spending bill was already negotiated. In fact, Senate Republicans already passed it unanimously. Trump has signed previous spending bills without wall funding. So what has changed?
Trump got scared by Anne Coulter and other right wingers. He had already indicated his support, but then he flip flopped. So now he's deciding to put up a big fight over this priority. He's made an offer: the wall in exchange for nothing. Democrats have said no. So he's the master dealmaker right? Shouldn't he be able to get a deal done to get his wall? Schumer offered him the wall months ago in exchange for DACA protections. Why did he turn that down if the wall is so critical?
I'm also curious what "empirical evidence" you're referring to. What evidence and proving what exactly? Also, you're forgetting some important stuff in that period of 1920-1970, like you know, the Great Depression, which started in 1929 and didn't end until 1939.
A wall or fence along the whole border would be more of a symbol than anything.
Yeah. So why are we shutting down the government, causing real disruption and harm for a symbol? That's real fucking dumb. Is that supposed to make people feel better when they don't get their paychecks? The president is throwing a temper tantrum, not even over a real policy that matters in a meaningful way, but over a symbol?
All you have to do is lookup the spending bill. The funding for the wall he wants is part of a spending bill. You should know this. I get you don't like him or his policies but google "trump wall funding part of spending bill." No one is scared of Coulter. He backed down the first time he threatened a shutdown and now he's not. Coulter came out right before his speech last night and said "he has to be compassionate." Do you think they rewrote that whole speech the day of because Coulter said so? She is convincing the gullible she has more power than she really does and turn that into money.
You are talking about political sparring between Schumer and Trump that is a lot more complex than you realize. There are issues dealing with funding for the wall(Trump once asked for 25B and was turned down) There are issues with chain migration. Both politicians were making plays at one another that they knew wouldn't be accepted but people would bite down on and pick whichever side was their perceived side.
The empirical evidence I was referring to are the current poverty levels of California, what I've personally seen happen to cities like Austin, TX, what is going on right now in LA and San Francisco. Anyone who actually travels, who has been to those cities and been back even 5 years later can see the difference. I'm not just talking about the cost of living or the traffic. I'm talking about large parts of the city not being safe, the needles in the streets, the homeless kids, the piss and shit all over downtown. What do you think is going to happen when you say "everyone welcome?" What would happen in your own home if you invited anyone in that wanted to come in. Yes, it is actually that simple. Watch the immigration gumball video on youtube.
I pointed out that we saw the middle class flourish during the time mass immigration to this country was banned. I also specifically pointed out that wasn't the only reason. Clearly, it's not. It may not even be the main reason. We agree on that. You're getting my statements confused, which may be partly my fault. The main point I was making in pointing out how we severely curbed illegal immigration from the 20s to the 70s is that it has been done in the past, with much less advanced technology and it can be done again. The Great Depression was over 30+ years and we still had immigration(both legal and illegal) way down. People need to stop the argument that it can't be done. Clearly it can.
You are saying the wall is just a symbol. It's way more than that. I say it is a symbol MORE THAN ANYTHING because it's about fixing this broken immigration system. The wall along with other measures can make it happen. Other countries have walls that work right now. The president isn't throwing a tantrum. This is planned out. Whether you like him or not, it still amazes me how people want to believe the guy is an idiot. Regardless what he does with TPP, NAFTA, N.K, prison reform, etc. etc. people can't seem to realize that he is intelligent and almost everything he does is thought out and well planned. I don't know what will happen tomorrow. The guy is 70 maybe he will lose his shit but I don't see it happening. Regardless, so far he has outplayed both the RINOS and Dems many, many times.
So first off, I do appreciate that you're being civil. Usually on here, I just get called a bunch of racial slurs and then get told to kill myself. So it's a nice change of pace!
I've actually spent a good amount of time in LA and SF. For sure, SF has a homelessness problem. I've never had the impression -- or seen any evidence -- that the problem is a result of immigration though. I would believe the homelessness problem has gotten worse in recent years, but again, illegal immigration is down. So that doesn't seem like it would explain it. Most of the people I've seen on the streets (which I realize is not the entire homeless population) seem to have mental illness and/or addiction problems -- but they don't usually even have an accent. So I'm just not convinced these two issues are at all connected.
Trump never explicitly announced he would sign the spending bill, but that certainly seemed to be the impression McConnell had. Otherwise, why would McConnell have put the spending bill up for a vote without wall funding? Now every Senate Republican looks like a hypocrite because they're all on the record voting for a spending bill a few weeks ago without wall funding and now they have to pretend like that's totally unacceptable to them.
The Senate passed the bill, then Coulter called Trump "gutless" (and other right wingers also bashed him, I'm not pretending she's the only one). Then Trump announced he would only sign a bill with wall funding. Now maybe that's just a coincidence! But if Trump had been more strategic, he would have told McConnell not to put the spending bill up for a vote in the first place. So sorry, but it's hard for me to see how this is all strategic. What exactly is the end game here? Democrats aren't going to give him what he wants for nothing.
And yeah, I don't think Trump is a very smart person. Even Tillerson reportedly called him a "fucking moron." According to his own aides, he doesn't read briefings, needs everything simplified with lots of pictures, can't concentrate, etc. But also, I've just heard him speak. He doesn't think clearly. He just word vomits a jumble of disconnected thoughts. I mean, just look at his twitter feed! He clearly connects with a lot of people and he knows how to play the media and how to project swagger. So he definitely has some talents. But no, I wouldn't call him a smart person.
We'll see how this shutdown fight ends. But this seems like an impulsive play to appease his base without much of a grander strategy. So it's pretty hard for me to see how Trump comes out a winner in terms of actual policy. (Although I'm sure he'll find a way to save face and declare himself the victor.)
Who cares if Trump played games or not with politicians that have been clearly playing games with him over the wall funding? That is how it works in DC. Both sides play games with the media and the public. We know Trump was elected, like the electoral college or not, on this issue. He wants the funding for the wall. We know the other side wants open borders. We're seeing the game playing out. You didn't even understand that the wall funding was part of a spending bill. I know this because you kept asking 'what is he offering them.' That shows your basic ignorance on what you're speaking about. That wasn't an insult. You're clearly smart enough to figure it out. Yet, instead of accepting what I said, that both sides have played games with each other and the public in the past, that the 2 sides want different things and we will see how it plays out, you go dig up quotes to try and make Trump look like the bad orange man. I don't think Trump is a saint and I don't like everything he does. I am not into people worship. I am behind a functional immigration system and putting American citizens(of all colors) first. That's what the American government should be doing. It shouldn't be putting the other almost 7 billion people in the world first, the Mexicans first or the Israelis first. It should be putting Americans first.
The massive influx of drugs into the US, driven by people here seeking the drugs and a lack of port inspections and border security is what has turned Mexico into a feudal state ran by drug lords. For a group of corrupt, extremely rich politicians in Mexico to tell their population to come here and 'take back the wealth' is insane thing to say. It is not as insane as this system we currently have in place, the one where US intelligence and Mexican cartels have overthrown the legitimate government of Mexico, destroyed those people's country, destroyed their right to self-determination and continues to get hundreds and thousands of them killed every year. This is how empires work. It is wrong what we have done to Mexico and continue to do. For white people, brown people, etc. to get behind this system and oppose border security is so mind boggling to me it hurts. It hurts me to see it, to see what they have duped all of us into supporting.
If we put drones, border patrol, a wall and even the military on that Southern border you'll see the flow of illegal drugs and immigrants drastically reduced, as has happened in other countries around the world. If we fine businesses for hiring illegals then illegal immigration and corporate crime will drastically be reduced. This is not only putting the American people first, it's also putting Mexico first. That will be a big problem for our globalist folks in congress. If Mexico changes, almost overnight(and it will) to be the gem of central and south america, when the crime drops, tourism goes up, etc. it will become an example for the world. You could see an end to the US doing this to countries like Mexico and Columbia. It's amazing how our intelligence agencies and politicians overthrow foreign governments and turn whole countries into shit holes then scream and yell "RACISM" at anyone who wants to put a stop to it. The drug problem in this country is clearly not caused by a wall or racism. If we want immigrants in this country then they need to come here legally, safely, pay all their taxes, get all the same safe work environments and minimum wage that everyone else gets.
If the liberal nightmare comes true and the wall is built, border security added and the economy crashes due to a shortage in available workers then they'll fix that issue and open those gates as fast as they closed them. I assure you of that. Even if 50B is spent on the wall, once all the smoke clears and this is settled one way or the other, down the road it will save this country hundreds of billions of dollars on an immigration system that functions better. We'll either have an effective system or we'll quit wasting tens of billions of dollars every year on things that don't work. Either way, the system will be improved and we save money in the long run. You being so passionately against this doesn't make sense on all the levels I've just pointed out and so many more.
You trying to tell me "immigration is down in recent years so that doesn't explain the homeless problem" is also you trying to take national illegal immigration data, data that is even at its base clearly inaccurate and applying that to a sanctuary city in a sanctuary state. You're not factoring in anchor babies and illegal children we don't know about, that fill our schools, illegals that aren't counted that fill our work places, etc. These people do not report themselves. You're talking about a cumulative thing and trying to make it as simple as "it's down in recent years." I could go on all day about why almost every single gas station in this country is ran by foreigners and how they are all brought here, often large families and each and every one of them get grants for 40k apiece and pay no taxes for the first several years on that business and how they just switch owners. How is this fair to Americans? It's not just people coming in, it's people we are paying to bring in, giving enormous grants to own businesses and paying for their school. This is a complex subject that is cumulative. My point with immigration is that often illegals are taken advantage of and American tax payers are taken advantage of for the benefit of politicians and CEOs.
Look at CA and the cities in it. Do a search on how the wealth is leaving the state. It's not just the immigration, both legal and illegal but a general issue with overpopulation. Since we know that white Americans aren't reproducing at rates even fast enough to sustain their numbers, we know by default almost all population increases are caused by immigrants and children or recent immigrants. Overpopulation, in any system, capitalist or socialist, causes problems. It's not just traffic. You're talking about cost of living rising while wages go down. You're talking about strains on social welfare systems. You can't take a sanctuary city, that has obviously had a change in demographics due to a huge influx of immigrants and say "yea but illegal immigration is down nationwide so that's not the issue." The issue with the whole state of CA is clearly overpopulation. The change in demographics is clear to even a blind person. Please stop trying to ignore that by bean counting. You're seeing taxes go up, cost of living go up, strains on social welfare systems, crime go up. What happens next? The wealthy leave. They've been leaving. That's how the drain happens. Now you have a state that was once "The Golden State" and it is the poverty capital of the U.S. Even if you LOVE immigrants then at least listen to basic math. Actually watch the gumball video on youtube I referenced you to. You can't invite 7 billion people in and expect the problems like the ones I outlined above with CA to not happen. You can't expect the problems to get better.
You talking about white homeless, please go volunteer for Meals on Wheels. Do it for 2 months. You're talking about visible homeless. That's not even 1/5th of the homeless. Yes, no matter where you go you will see a lot of white homeless. This is because less help is available for them, even the veterans. I know that because during better times I ran a non-profit to help fellow vets. I never took a dime of grant money. I simply wrote off whatever I spent on their rent, cars, clothes, etc on taxes. There is no help for them but everyone giving everyone else the illusion of help. It is not there. 99% of the vet programs you see are bullshit. I'm not saying that a lot of homeless aren't there because of their own doing but low wages, high cost of living, high taxes and general over crowding and crime don't help the situation. Go do some volunteer work in a major city and you will understand the problem better.
I decided to watch CNN for lulz. They had a 'fact checker' from the Toronto Star. Cuomo turns to him after the speech and they start 'fact checking'. Cuomo says "What about the one-third of immigrant women who are sexually assaulted?". Guy goes "I don't have any information on that particular fact." It pans to them both sitting in front of laptops.
Every libtard who wants open boarders should house and personally pay for this..every last one of them..get their addresses and start sending illegals to their houses..guarentee this will shut their stupid mouths up...either house them or shut the fuck up.
Sorry , but your family does not give a shit about one single person hurt by the aliens. It's all about them and only them.
They should be forced out of the country at gun point and made to go live in Mexico where they can help all the people they objectified and stripped all humanity from so they could assumed were only interested in coming here to love them.
Thank you VOATers. I was wondering if I should watch anything after Trump's speech ended. I now know I was right to shut down live feeds at that moment.
You could hook them up with some humanitarian agency and let them do a tour in Central America. If any make it back alive I bet they won't be liberals anymore.
....and every god damned talking head couldn't wait to announce their skewed statistics that proclaim "IMMIGRANTS DON'T COMMIT AS MUCH CRIME AS NATIVE BORN AMERICANS"!!
Because there aren't as many of them. It's an intentional deception.
Plus, is even one unnecessary death ok? Not toention the massive strain on public schools, hospitals insurance bc of all the hit and runs by illegals. What about all the crime committed by people who don't get caught?
Pretty sure it was the Texas BoJ that actually had a report on this. Maybe 6 years ago. They actually tracked illegal crime separately and they were giving niggers a real run for the money. Don't want to find the report now but if you look at enough Red Elephant videos I know he has sourced them before.
If learning coding taught me anything it was you can't have a variable in an equation have multiple values. You can do it as a human but it comes with feelings which the human reaction is to dismiss than identify. I remember Jobs saying "learning to program teaches you to think".
I'm self taught but I believe that was the point where I began to wake up and over a decade later I haven't done anything but try to improve, while I believe everyone else regresses back to some dependent child like state.
That Black Shit Coffee Company is making me insane. I though FINALLY A PRO AMERICAN NON JEW COMPANY OWNED BY VETS... BUT NO SEMITINIGGERZ OWN THE THING. SAD DAY IN THE WORLD OF BEANS.
Right? Billionaire board members tell millionaire news anchors what to tell the public,...and the public doesn’t see any reason to scrutinize what’s being said or why it’s being said to them?
BakedMofoBread ago
It’s a conditioned response.
nozeno ago
Show them the Border Patrol stats - they're catching about 40K invaders a month - how many aren't they catching? How many are murderers, rapists, gang members? How many are pregnant women coming to pop out an anchor baby? And whatever their status - 100% of them are illegally invading the US.
Also, that "overstay visa" narrative leftists spout is total bullshit.
WD_Pelley ago
Benedict Cumberbatch.
And I also remember another Brit - Jude Law - going down to a migrant camp to "help" them and he nearly ended up getting his ass kicked. Actors are some of the worst hypocrites.
Tallest_Skil ago
Quick reminder that no one is ever going to fight back against any of this.
BlkRifleCoffeeCancer ago
It's not nitpicking. If you put everything question then you can refer to your own questioning as proof. Perfect example the Steele dossier.
meow_cow ago
Your family isn't really brainwashed. They know that these people are liberal voters or future liberal voters, they'll support them no matter what they do.
BlackSheepBrouhaha ago
It's called Pilpul. It's a Jewish trick, they always use it.
Doglegwarrior ago
The real problem is not fucking POOR MEXICANS its the fucking ZIONIST JEWS! that are destroying this country... ive heard illigal mexicans cost us 100 billion a year the fucking bankster jew war the last 17 years has cost us 6 trillion plus dollars and its still going!
GapingAnus ago
I wish people would take a page from Yuri and realize that you can't argue facts with demoralized people. You have to have a better narrative. Fanatics are not swayed by facts.
TheAntiZealot ago
'Fanatic' is the root word for 'fan.' You know, as in sports fan.
BlackSheepBrouhaha ago
A fanatic is someone who doesn't understand their own position as much as they know the opposing one is wrong.
lion4liberty ago
Does it make you feel better about your self saying that some one does not know their own positions? Because honestly you sound like a retard virtue signaling like that.
BlackSheepBrouhaha ago
I know I believed in Santa most before I understood him. I still believe, but in a collaborative way. I can't be taken up in weightless belief, I am a pallbearer bound by constraints which remind me that ideas do not have a life of their own.
My-Name-is-Mud ago
Doublethink doubleplus bad
dorferino ago
Thats doubleplus ungood you illiterate
crazy_eyes ago
its the same game with slightly different players
crazy_eyes ago
tell them to try to illegally enter any other country on earth and see what happens to them
deleteme123 ago
@OP: check out these facts on Plebbit
https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/ae2095/cbs_news_fact_checks_trump_speech_has_a_bad_time/
Kr1ll1nX ago
Dude, it's easy to unfuck them. Just ask them to look at practically any top ten most wanted list.
speedisavirus ago
But he gave like 6 examples of illegals murdering people and he could have given over 600 for sure.
jollux ago
Are you white?
gazillions ago
Tell them they're anti American occupiers and could end up driven out, like the moors from Spain.
bagano1 ago
Most liberals are idiots.
con77 ago
if you cant admit theres a crises on our border you are a fucking treasonous lisar
goldnsilver ago
Get some German girls and women and Swedes that have been raped, robbed by immigrants and I'll bet you they will TELL US "BUILD THE WALL!"
Blunt_Echo ago
You'll never get anywhere arguing against a group. They are feeding off of each other. You need to take them on one by one; find which issue they are most impassioned about, get information to counter their beliefs/narratives and then present said information to them for discussion. You may have to do this over and over again—slowly chipping away at their defenses using different counterpoints and techniques.
Most people don't have the patience to do this and thus are ineffectual. I've red-pilled many people in my life using these tactics. Sometimes it has taken years. The key is not to get upset and get into a shouting match. Think of yourself as a farmer planting seeds—not all will germinate, but some will take root.
Something that will actually help is researching sales strategies and then modifying them to suit your needs. Salespeople are master persuaders—their livelihood depends on it. Trump is an excellent example.
OmarComin ago
It sounds more like you just don't like being confronted with facts that challenge your world view.
All of the estimates of illegal immigration show it has being trending down in recent years. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to want more border security! But let's at least have an honest debate about it, using actual facts.
Similarly, illegal immigrants commit crimes (other than illegal entry) at a lower rate than native born citizens. Yes, obviously they've committed a crime by entering the country illegally. But Trump talks about them being rapists and murders and drug dealers, and the data just doesn't support that claim.
How is it dishonest or misleading to point out basic facts like that?
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Intrixina ago
What facts are there that you're talking about?
They queue jumped in front of legitimate migrants who jumped through all the hoops to gain a visa to the US. They are entitled pieces of shit who think the rules don't apply to them. That is a fact.
Fuck them, and kick them the fuck out of the US. If you want to go to the US - go legally.
Oh, they don't have the requirements to do so, you say? Not our fucking problem.
bb22 ago
If you trust the statistics (((they))) give then you are a fucking retard. Everyone knows the government bureaucracies, universities, international NGOs, etc. are all still filled with leftist ideologues. Why the fuck would THEY tell you the truth?
Goat-Master-5000 ago
Hey, asshole. They're not illegal "immigrants", retard. They're illegal ALIENS. They are invaders.
A large mass of brown-skinned, low IQ, illegal INVADERS:
P.S. Fuck off.
TheWheelofTime ago
I agree with some of what you pointed out. Some of this is a rebuttal to what you posted and some of it is just my own thoughts on the topic.
What about tax evasion, various forms of tax fraud and numerous forms welfare fraud? Are those crimes on your list too? How many times have we seen whole sheets of 'white' people arrested for crimes. Do these get reported as illegal immigrant crimes or are they crimes committed by 'whites?" I haven't looked up the answer but I've seen enough to know the way crime stats are reported in this country are dishonest to say the least.
From my experience most illegals are hard working. Most move here to better themselves and their families. You get all types that come here. I don't blame them or their families but this system takes advantage of the US taxpayer. We have enough strain on our resources, enough homeless, enough problems with our social security system and public education. These socialist ideas cannot work under a dysfunctional immigration system.
If Americans want these people here then they should be legal and documented. They should not be exposed to unsafe work environments, unsafe trips here, not able to apply for certain jobs and not eligible for promotions at certain jobs because of them being undocumented. Americans shouldn't have to pay for illegal children to go to schools, feed their kids or pay for all their hospital visits. I could go on and on about the social security and foodstamps...
The thing is, we have enough criminals here of all types. We have enough people here on welfare. We don't need more. Whether we need engineers, doctors, construction workers or workers in the agriculture industry they need to come in legally.
Don't even get me started on how WRONG every census I've seen on illegals is. They claimed there were 2,000 in the city I live in. I could go down to one factory and find you more than that. Whether you like the president or not, the electoral college or not, he was elected and elected on this issue. We can argue over numbers all day but we all know how to look outside our windows. The American people should decide who does and doesn't get to come here and contribute. We should own this country. It is an issue of ownership.
omarcomin1 ago
I think it's a complicated issue that deserves a serious solution. I don't support "open borders" and most Democrats don't either. And I would be fine spending more money to make border security more effective in exchange for some more substantive reforms to our immigration system.
And I agree with you that illegal immigrants are at risk of exploitation, and that's a real problem. I also think some tech companies exploit H-1B visas to hire cheaper foreign workers when they could hire Americans. And part of the reason they can exploit the foreign workers is because they control their status in the country (if they leave the job, they could get kicked out of the country). So there are real problems with the system!
That said, I don't see how shutting down the government over $5 billion for a "wall" is going to solve these problems. And Democrats aren't going to just give Trump what he wants for nothing. That's not how negotiations work. He can stomp his feet all he wants, but he needs to offer them something in return.
TheWheelofTime ago
The country brought immigration, both legal and illegal almost to a halt 1920-70s. That's 50 years. We saw the middle class flourish. I'm not claiming that was the only reason. All you have to do is fine businesses that hire illegals. The walls are there to stop fully automatic machine guns, vehicles and RPGs from hitting border towns in the states. A wall or fence along the whole border would be more of a symbol than anything. It is about a movement towards fixing this immigration system. It has been done in this country's past. It can be done again. Look at states and cities right now that just invite everyone in that wants in be they homeless or Mexican or Venezuelan. Look at the poverty levels in CA, the poorest state in the country now. Look at LA. Look at what is happening to San Francisco. The empirical evidence is before you and it is real time. The more people you invite in, the less you do to control illegal immigration, the more of it you're going to have. It's really that simple. We see it playing out in cities and states across the country. The difference is clear.
I know a thing or two about Visas. It's isn't just corporations bringing in foreign workers. Often the tax payer foots the bill for it. We pay to train and bring in people to take our IT jobs. I have personally seen it at more than a few companies.
Please stop saying things like "most democrats don't want open borders either" Look at the leadership of the Democratic Party. They coined the phrase "open borders." Except that phrase is misleading because the only borders open are ours. Just like when they say "no human is illegal" except they have no desire to legalize everyone. Neither do the Neo Cons because that isn't what big business wants.
For you to outline how negotiation works and then say that isn't how it works doesn't make any sense. He's offered plenty in return. Look at the spending bill. Regardless of how this plays out, that's how the process takes place. In this country's history fining businesses for hiring illegals has been shown to be effective. The border fence or border wall can be effective, especially when combined with things like more border patrol agents, drones and ICE, all of which Trump is trying to get funded.
omarcomin1 ago
What exactly has he offered in return? Keeping the government open is not a gift to Democrats, that's just the basic responsibility of public officials. And the spending bill was already negotiated. In fact, Senate Republicans already passed it unanimously. Trump has signed previous spending bills without wall funding. So what has changed?
Trump got scared by Anne Coulter and other right wingers. He had already indicated his support, but then he flip flopped. So now he's deciding to put up a big fight over this priority. He's made an offer: the wall in exchange for nothing. Democrats have said no. So he's the master dealmaker right? Shouldn't he be able to get a deal done to get his wall? Schumer offered him the wall months ago in exchange for DACA protections. Why did he turn that down if the wall is so critical?
I'm also curious what "empirical evidence" you're referring to. What evidence and proving what exactly? Also, you're forgetting some important stuff in that period of 1920-1970, like you know, the Great Depression, which started in 1929 and didn't end until 1939.
Yeah. So why are we shutting down the government, causing real disruption and harm for a symbol? That's real fucking dumb. Is that supposed to make people feel better when they don't get their paychecks? The president is throwing a temper tantrum, not even over a real policy that matters in a meaningful way, but over a symbol?
TheWheelofTime ago
All you have to do is lookup the spending bill. The funding for the wall he wants is part of a spending bill. You should know this. I get you don't like him or his policies but google "trump wall funding part of spending bill." No one is scared of Coulter. He backed down the first time he threatened a shutdown and now he's not. Coulter came out right before his speech last night and said "he has to be compassionate." Do you think they rewrote that whole speech the day of because Coulter said so? She is convincing the gullible she has more power than she really does and turn that into money.
You are talking about political sparring between Schumer and Trump that is a lot more complex than you realize. There are issues dealing with funding for the wall(Trump once asked for 25B and was turned down) There are issues with chain migration. Both politicians were making plays at one another that they knew wouldn't be accepted but people would bite down on and pick whichever side was their perceived side.
The empirical evidence I was referring to are the current poverty levels of California, what I've personally seen happen to cities like Austin, TX, what is going on right now in LA and San Francisco. Anyone who actually travels, who has been to those cities and been back even 5 years later can see the difference. I'm not just talking about the cost of living or the traffic. I'm talking about large parts of the city not being safe, the needles in the streets, the homeless kids, the piss and shit all over downtown. What do you think is going to happen when you say "everyone welcome?" What would happen in your own home if you invited anyone in that wanted to come in. Yes, it is actually that simple. Watch the immigration gumball video on youtube.
I pointed out that we saw the middle class flourish during the time mass immigration to this country was banned. I also specifically pointed out that wasn't the only reason. Clearly, it's not. It may not even be the main reason. We agree on that. You're getting my statements confused, which may be partly my fault. The main point I was making in pointing out how we severely curbed illegal immigration from the 20s to the 70s is that it has been done in the past, with much less advanced technology and it can be done again. The Great Depression was over 30+ years and we still had immigration(both legal and illegal) way down. People need to stop the argument that it can't be done. Clearly it can.
You are saying the wall is just a symbol. It's way more than that. I say it is a symbol MORE THAN ANYTHING because it's about fixing this broken immigration system. The wall along with other measures can make it happen. Other countries have walls that work right now. The president isn't throwing a tantrum. This is planned out. Whether you like him or not, it still amazes me how people want to believe the guy is an idiot. Regardless what he does with TPP, NAFTA, N.K, prison reform, etc. etc. people can't seem to realize that he is intelligent and almost everything he does is thought out and well planned. I don't know what will happen tomorrow. The guy is 70 maybe he will lose his shit but I don't see it happening. Regardless, so far he has outplayed both the RINOS and Dems many, many times.
omarcomin1 ago
So first off, I do appreciate that you're being civil. Usually on here, I just get called a bunch of racial slurs and then get told to kill myself. So it's a nice change of pace!
I've actually spent a good amount of time in LA and SF. For sure, SF has a homelessness problem. I've never had the impression -- or seen any evidence -- that the problem is a result of immigration though. I would believe the homelessness problem has gotten worse in recent years, but again, illegal immigration is down. So that doesn't seem like it would explain it. Most of the people I've seen on the streets (which I realize is not the entire homeless population) seem to have mental illness and/or addiction problems -- but they don't usually even have an accent. So I'm just not convinced these two issues are at all connected.
Trump never explicitly announced he would sign the spending bill, but that certainly seemed to be the impression McConnell had. Otherwise, why would McConnell have put the spending bill up for a vote without wall funding? Now every Senate Republican looks like a hypocrite because they're all on the record voting for a spending bill a few weeks ago without wall funding and now they have to pretend like that's totally unacceptable to them.
The Senate passed the bill, then Coulter called Trump "gutless" (and other right wingers also bashed him, I'm not pretending she's the only one). Then Trump announced he would only sign a bill with wall funding. Now maybe that's just a coincidence! But if Trump had been more strategic, he would have told McConnell not to put the spending bill up for a vote in the first place. So sorry, but it's hard for me to see how this is all strategic. What exactly is the end game here? Democrats aren't going to give him what he wants for nothing.
And yeah, I don't think Trump is a very smart person. Even Tillerson reportedly called him a "fucking moron." According to his own aides, he doesn't read briefings, needs everything simplified with lots of pictures, can't concentrate, etc. But also, I've just heard him speak. He doesn't think clearly. He just word vomits a jumble of disconnected thoughts. I mean, just look at his twitter feed! He clearly connects with a lot of people and he knows how to play the media and how to project swagger. So he definitely has some talents. But no, I wouldn't call him a smart person.
We'll see how this shutdown fight ends. But this seems like an impulsive play to appease his base without much of a grander strategy. So it's pretty hard for me to see how Trump comes out a winner in terms of actual policy. (Although I'm sure he'll find a way to save face and declare himself the victor.)
TheWheelofTime ago
Who cares if Trump played games or not with politicians that have been clearly playing games with him over the wall funding? That is how it works in DC. Both sides play games with the media and the public. We know Trump was elected, like the electoral college or not, on this issue. He wants the funding for the wall. We know the other side wants open borders. We're seeing the game playing out. You didn't even understand that the wall funding was part of a spending bill. I know this because you kept asking 'what is he offering them.' That shows your basic ignorance on what you're speaking about. That wasn't an insult. You're clearly smart enough to figure it out. Yet, instead of accepting what I said, that both sides have played games with each other and the public in the past, that the 2 sides want different things and we will see how it plays out, you go dig up quotes to try and make Trump look like the bad orange man. I don't think Trump is a saint and I don't like everything he does. I am not into people worship. I am behind a functional immigration system and putting American citizens(of all colors) first. That's what the American government should be doing. It shouldn't be putting the other almost 7 billion people in the world first, the Mexicans first or the Israelis first. It should be putting Americans first.
The massive influx of drugs into the US, driven by people here seeking the drugs and a lack of port inspections and border security is what has turned Mexico into a feudal state ran by drug lords. For a group of corrupt, extremely rich politicians in Mexico to tell their population to come here and 'take back the wealth' is insane thing to say. It is not as insane as this system we currently have in place, the one where US intelligence and Mexican cartels have overthrown the legitimate government of Mexico, destroyed those people's country, destroyed their right to self-determination and continues to get hundreds and thousands of them killed every year. This is how empires work. It is wrong what we have done to Mexico and continue to do. For white people, brown people, etc. to get behind this system and oppose border security is so mind boggling to me it hurts. It hurts me to see it, to see what they have duped all of us into supporting.
If we put drones, border patrol, a wall and even the military on that Southern border you'll see the flow of illegal drugs and immigrants drastically reduced, as has happened in other countries around the world. If we fine businesses for hiring illegals then illegal immigration and corporate crime will drastically be reduced. This is not only putting the American people first, it's also putting Mexico first. That will be a big problem for our globalist folks in congress. If Mexico changes, almost overnight(and it will) to be the gem of central and south america, when the crime drops, tourism goes up, etc. it will become an example for the world. You could see an end to the US doing this to countries like Mexico and Columbia. It's amazing how our intelligence agencies and politicians overthrow foreign governments and turn whole countries into shit holes then scream and yell "RACISM" at anyone who wants to put a stop to it. The drug problem in this country is clearly not caused by a wall or racism. If we want immigrants in this country then they need to come here legally, safely, pay all their taxes, get all the same safe work environments and minimum wage that everyone else gets.
If the liberal nightmare comes true and the wall is built, border security added and the economy crashes due to a shortage in available workers then they'll fix that issue and open those gates as fast as they closed them. I assure you of that. Even if 50B is spent on the wall, once all the smoke clears and this is settled one way or the other, down the road it will save this country hundreds of billions of dollars on an immigration system that functions better. We'll either have an effective system or we'll quit wasting tens of billions of dollars every year on things that don't work. Either way, the system will be improved and we save money in the long run. You being so passionately against this doesn't make sense on all the levels I've just pointed out and so many more.
You trying to tell me "immigration is down in recent years so that doesn't explain the homeless problem" is also you trying to take national illegal immigration data, data that is even at its base clearly inaccurate and applying that to a sanctuary city in a sanctuary state. You're not factoring in anchor babies and illegal children we don't know about, that fill our schools, illegals that aren't counted that fill our work places, etc. These people do not report themselves. You're talking about a cumulative thing and trying to make it as simple as "it's down in recent years." I could go on all day about why almost every single gas station in this country is ran by foreigners and how they are all brought here, often large families and each and every one of them get grants for 40k apiece and pay no taxes for the first several years on that business and how they just switch owners. How is this fair to Americans? It's not just people coming in, it's people we are paying to bring in, giving enormous grants to own businesses and paying for their school. This is a complex subject that is cumulative. My point with immigration is that often illegals are taken advantage of and American tax payers are taken advantage of for the benefit of politicians and CEOs.
Look at CA and the cities in it. Do a search on how the wealth is leaving the state. It's not just the immigration, both legal and illegal but a general issue with overpopulation. Since we know that white Americans aren't reproducing at rates even fast enough to sustain their numbers, we know by default almost all population increases are caused by immigrants and children or recent immigrants. Overpopulation, in any system, capitalist or socialist, causes problems. It's not just traffic. You're talking about cost of living rising while wages go down. You're talking about strains on social welfare systems. You can't take a sanctuary city, that has obviously had a change in demographics due to a huge influx of immigrants and say "yea but illegal immigration is down nationwide so that's not the issue." The issue with the whole state of CA is clearly overpopulation. The change in demographics is clear to even a blind person. Please stop trying to ignore that by bean counting. You're seeing taxes go up, cost of living go up, strains on social welfare systems, crime go up. What happens next? The wealthy leave. They've been leaving. That's how the drain happens. Now you have a state that was once "The Golden State" and it is the poverty capital of the U.S. Even if you LOVE immigrants then at least listen to basic math. Actually watch the gumball video on youtube I referenced you to. You can't invite 7 billion people in and expect the problems like the ones I outlined above with CA to not happen. You can't expect the problems to get better.
You talking about white homeless, please go volunteer for Meals on Wheels. Do it for 2 months. You're talking about visible homeless. That's not even 1/5th of the homeless. Yes, no matter where you go you will see a lot of white homeless. This is because less help is available for them, even the veterans. I know that because during better times I ran a non-profit to help fellow vets. I never took a dime of grant money. I simply wrote off whatever I spent on their rent, cars, clothes, etc on taxes. There is no help for them but everyone giving everyone else the illusion of help. It is not there. 99% of the vet programs you see are bullshit. I'm not saying that a lot of homeless aren't there because of their own doing but low wages, high cost of living, high taxes and general over crowding and crime don't help the situation. Go do some volunteer work in a major city and you will understand the problem better.
crazy_eyes ago
just how has the shutdown affected you?
jollux ago
Yes, I'm sure you would be.
omarcomin1 ago
What a weird gotcha. Isn't that exactly what Trump is asking for?
jollux ago
Why would I argue earnestly with a dog?
FatBruceWillis ago
Illegals commit violent crimes at a higher rate than legals.
blargh55 ago
Simple. Because if they werent here at all, their crimes would have never happened. Period. They should not be here. End of story
yellowthread ago
The instant background check system denied 7.9 million gun sales to illegal immigrants in one year.
Since the fact checkers tell us there are only 11 million in the US, that means over 70% are trying to obtain firearms illegally.
Obviously what it really means is there are way more than 11 million.
Goat-Master-5000 ago
The real number is probably well over 30 million illegals.
draaaak ago
More likely 30-40million... maybe more.
Damnpasswords ago
NiceName happy hanukah https://m.jpost.com/US-Elections/US-Jews-contribute-half-of-all-donations-to-the-Democratic-party-468774/amp
TheWheelofTime ago
Keep this handy on the phone. When they start in just smile.. they'll get worse. Then play this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjHUb7NSrNk
KVD ago
You ought to take them for a drive through L. A.
NosebergShekelman ago
Its so obvious that Dems are trying to flood America with browns and destroy white people. They want to turn America into Venezuela.
lemon11 ago
oversocialization
SouthernSon ago
Clowan-Piven stragety of destroying Western nations
Eualos ago
Those stats don't track illegal immigration very well since it is my definition unregulated
Grunge ago
they are brainwashed past the point of no return. The MSM and the tyrannical politicians have done a number on this country.
watts2db ago
its like the opening scene to 1984
NaCl_ ago
I decided to watch CNN for lulz. They had a 'fact checker' from the Toronto Star. Cuomo turns to him after the speech and they start 'fact checking'. Cuomo says "What about the one-third of immigrant women who are sexually assaulted?". Guy goes "I don't have any information on that particular fact." It pans to them both sitting in front of laptops.
Fetalpig ago
Every libtard who wants open boarders should house and personally pay for this..every last one of them..get their addresses and start sending illegals to their houses..guarentee this will shut their stupid mouths up...either house them or shut the fuck up.
gazillions ago
Narcissism. Pure and simple.
Sorry , but your family does not give a shit about one single person hurt by the aliens. It's all about them and only them.
They should be forced out of the country at gun point and made to go live in Mexico where they can help all the people they objectified and stripped all humanity from so they could assumed were only interested in coming here to love them.
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2018/07/05/rap-sheet-acts-of-media-approved-violence-and-harassment-against-trump-supporters/
speedisavirus ago
They wouldn't even care if it happened to him.
Pwning4Ever ago
Liberals have the part of the brain that detects danger shutdown. It doesn't work.
Bitterroot_Bugler ago
Thank you VOATers. I was wondering if I should watch anything after Trump's speech ended. I now know I was right to shut down live feeds at that moment.
bushka ago
You could hook them up with some humanitarian agency and let them do a tour in Central America. If any make it back alive I bet they won't be liberals anymore.
speedisavirus ago
I think Burkina Faso or Morocco might be the better choice right now.
8_billion_eaters ago
....and every god damned talking head couldn't wait to announce their skewed statistics that proclaim "IMMIGRANTS DON'T COMMIT AS MUCH CRIME AS NATIVE BORN AMERICANS"!!
GOD FUCKING DAMN KIKE LIES!!!!!
And the normies eat it up like candy.
PuritySpiral ago
Depends on what kind of Americans. I'm sure Basketball Americans can give them a run for their money.
blargh55 ago
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what an actual strawman fallacy looks like. The democrats have finally demonstrated an actual strawman
KVD ago
Because there aren't as many of them. It's an intentional deception.
Plus, is even one unnecessary death ok? Not toention the massive strain on public schools, hospitals insurance bc of all the hit and runs by illegals. What about all the crime committed by people who don't get caught?
Eualos ago
By gross numbers they shouldn't, but as a percentage? Bullshit.
speedisavirus ago
Pretty sure it was the Texas BoJ that actually had a report on this. Maybe 6 years ago. They actually tracked illegal crime separately and they were giving niggers a real run for the money. Don't want to find the report now but if you look at enough Red Elephant videos I know he has sourced them before.
WhatitIs ago
The true National Emergency is the state of Cognitive Dissonance that those who are misled by the media experience.
The news media is quite factually making people insane.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/fighting-cognitive-dissonance-the-lies-we-tell-ourselves/
eronburr ago
They mince words too often.
If learning coding taught me anything it was you can't have a variable in an equation have multiple values. You can do it as a human but it comes with feelings which the human reaction is to dismiss than identify. I remember Jobs saying "learning to program teaches you to think".
I'm self taught but I believe that was the point where I began to wake up and over a decade later I haven't done anything but try to improve, while I believe everyone else regresses back to some dependent child like state.
Aldebaran7937 ago
That Black Shit Coffee Company is making me insane. I though FINALLY A PRO AMERICAN NON JEW COMPANY OWNED BY VETS... BUT NO SEMITINIGGERZ OWN THE THING. SAD DAY IN THE WORLD OF BEANS.
Dr_Shekel_Nigger ago
Right? Billionaire board members tell millionaire news anchors what to tell the public,...and the public doesn’t see any reason to scrutinize what’s being said or why it’s being said to them?
BlackKikeCoffeeCo ago
Accurate.