Anyway, I have to cut this short. I have to catch the red eye tonight, and I need to start packing. Thanks for the thoughtful conversation. You've definitely provided me with some food for though.
Do you agree, at all, that there are genetic differences among ethnicities?
Yes, of course I do. For instance sickle cell anemia is common in people of African descent because it is an evolutionary response to malaria. White people rarely have it because few white families have taken up residence in Africa for long enough for this to occur. The same is true about lactose intolerance. Milk was a reliable source of food for northern Europeans so northern Europeans eventually developed a tolerance for lactose that lasted past their childhood. I'm not saying that genetic differences in no way shape races. I am saying that the only provable differences I have seen are mostly cosmetic, and that cultural differences seem to be the driving force for racial inequality.
One huge problem with your argument is that you are assuming that race as it exist today has been around long enough to differentiate our species in any real way. We've adapted to different diseases and different climates, but to develop different modes of intelligence via genetic adaptation takes way longer than 100,000 years that have elapsed since humans migrated out of Africa.
Also, the paper that you linked to doesn't seem to offer strong support for your point, though it does counter mine. From the discussion section:
These parent–offspring correlations were, on the whole, quite low, but the majority of those that involved genetically related individuals were in the direction of favorable parent characteristics going with favorable child outcomes, whereas the correlations between genetically unrelated individuals appeared to show, if anything, a tendency in the opposite directions.
Basically genetic parent-child traits are not strongly connected, and adoptive parent-child traits are negatively correlated.
I can provide some evidence for the argument that nature plays a role.
I would be interested in this.
Say do you honestly and not just for the sake of political correctness consider the difference between indians, japanese, arabs, jews and south africans to be only cosmetic and different food?
Maybe I am doing this for the sake of political correctness. My specialty is wind erosion, so I don't work very closely with humans. From my point of view it seems far more likely that cultural differences are likely drivers of racial characteristics. My basis for thinking this are minority children adopted into white families at a young age. Most of these children are adopted into upper middle class liberal households, and almost always end up going to college and succeeding. Granted, this is anecdotal so it doesn't count as evidence. Not only this but I am liberal by the standards of most people on this site (I view myself as a centrist since most liberals think I'm conservative, and most conservatives think I'm liberal). I do have a liberal background though. I am unaware of any studies that show strong evidence for genetics being the primary driver of non-cosmetic racial differences. Like I said before, I study dirt and wind. I would however be interested in seeing research that shows evidence for your point.
edit: I read over your second point more closely and found this problem with it: I do think that there are racial differences. I would have to have my head in the sand to think otherwise. I have previously stated in this conversation though that I'm not convinced genetics is the root cause of these differences, but rather culture is. European culture is the dominant culture for a reason. It has the best outcomes for the largest number of it's members. Middle eastern culture however has very good outcomes for it's leadership and shitty outcomes for everyone else. It seems to me that this is the dominant driver of non-cosmetic racial differences.
The ones that you are talking about are predictive statistical models that show that genetics account for 40 - 70% of the variability in BMI. So yes, if we are talking about the role of genetics in body mass index then that is science. What you are doing is extrapolating from the BMI study and saying that it does count as scientific proof of differences in whatever it is exactly that you are attributing to race (which might possibly be a bullet point in the discussion section of a similar paper somewhere, but I doubt it). I'm not sure which traits you are attributing to race though, so you may want to clarify.
What if you're born with a natural tendency to work hard or be lazy? Or one step further, you're also not choosing the organ that made the decision to develop that talent nor are you choosing the amount of hormones in your blood. When it's not right to be proud about something that you are born with then why would it be right to be proud about yourself, who is born. So does it not always come down to being proud about what you are?
You're missing the point here. If you are naturally lazy and you take the effort to get off of your ass and do something hard you should be proud. If you are naturally driven and you get off your ass to do something hard you should be proud. Your natural predisposition towards laziness or hard work (if there is such a thing. My time in the military has me convinced that this is a nurture and not a nature problem.) has nothing to do with what you do other than how hard it makes it.
As an example, my fiance and I are both working towards becoming Geologists. When we first started I was better at pattern recognition and figuring out spatial relationships than her, which made it easier for me to figure out what I was doing at first. She put in the work and consistently got the same grades or better than I did. After about a year to a year and a half we're roughly about the same level grade and accomplishment wise. It was easier for me to get there, but not as easy. She may have put an extra week or two of work in than I have over the last couple of years, but she got to the same place and we pushed each other to keep working hard. I'm not proud of my talent that helped me because it helped so little. For me to get where I am took a hell of a lot of hard work despite my talents that made it slightly easier on me than her.
As to your second point, I've already addressed that in my previous comment. I'm willing to change my view as soon as I start seeing some proof. Until then I'm going to assume that the scientific consensus is correct.
Also the notion that you have to be loyal to your race because your race is looking out for you; Rich white people at the top would throw most of you under the bus just as soon as they would a black man. It doesn't matter how loyal you are to the white race, or how much you sacrifice to the white cause.
Have you considered the possibility that you attribute to culture what could be inherited? I ask because twin studies come to the conclusion that upbringing and parenting have little to no affect on personality, intelligence and performance.
I have considered it, and I keep coming back to it. Maybe I'm incorrect for thinking that this is the case, but I'm unaware of any other thing that's been shown to explain the differences between races. For instance, we've mapped the human genome, and as far as I know, we haven't isolated any genes that control for intelligence that are over or underrepresented in different races. Maybe there are, but until I see something that logically explains the non-cosmetic differences between races other than culture coming from a reputable source. Actually as politicized as this issue is, I'd actually like to see multiple studies that reach the same or similar conclusions via multiple research methods before coming down hard one way or the other. One well performed study will provide some food for thought though.
True. Though no one is capable of choosing to be born intelligent, athletic, talented or gifted either. Would it then not be equally stupid to feel proud for that?
Yes. It would be stupid to feel proud of your natural talents, and it is stupid to feel proud of your talents. Ever hear the phrase "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"? Being proud of something because you are naturally better than most people with a similar level of non-experience is stupid. If you develop that talent and become expert at something, that is when it is no longer stupid to be proud of it.
Is it stupid to use a word correctly according to it's definition? Is it stupid to feel an emotion?
Let's do this then pussy. How about i send your neighbor a free sighted m4 with a month's worth of range ammo just to put a bullet right up your fat cunt you fuckin bitch.
The gay pride movement has it's roots in a time in our society when being outed as gay was physically dangerous. The first gays to come out of the closet, and the people in the stonewall riots had a lot to be proud of. They stood up to people who were threatening violence against them, and likely wouldn't have lost any sleep over killing them. An act like that is ballsy, and worth being proud of yourself over. The modern iteration of gay pride (in the US at least) is a little silly IMHO. It's not overtly dangerous to be gay, and being out does nothing other than get you friends who are looking to score identity politics points. Hell, the liberal reaction to Milo Yianoppolous has sealed the deal. If you are a gay white man, then you are a regular white man as far as the regressive left is concerned. Even among died in the wool republicans being gay isn't a bad thing as long as you're "one of the good ones".
I think it's ridiculous that we live in a society that fetishizes race the way we do. No one is capable of choosing the race that they are born into, and most of the differences between the races seem to be either cosmetic or cultural anyway. I do understand that racial pride movements arose in response to oppression (with the current white pride movement being the exception - it is overwhelmingly a cover that white supremacists use to try and appear less threatening). I just don't think that they have a place in modern society. Racial tension isn't going to go away until people quit talking about it. Besides, it's stupid to take pride in something that you haven't done (I'm sticking with my definition of pride - which sounds like your definition of personal pride. Impersonal pride isn't really a feeling that feels like it's on the same scale as personal pride, at least to me).
I think it's really cool when we put a robot on Mars. I have the slightest inkling of an idea what a big achievement that is. I also understand how the team that pulled it of would feel proud of it. What I don't understand is why people expect me to be proud of a robot getting to Mars when I have nothing to do with the team that did it other than a small fraction of my tax money going to pay for it.
If I did nothing to be proud of then I shouldn't be proud. If someone is proud of someone else's achievements then they are proud of something that they had no part in. So, no I'm not proud when a soccer team wins, or when my country lands on another planet. I think it is really cool yes, and it does make me happy, but I have no sense of pride because I haven't achieved anything.
You did bring up family in one of your posts on this topic, and I like that example because it's on the border. If a close family member does something cool, then I am proud of them. I am not the one who did the thing to be proud of, but I am invested in my family, and have made sacrifices and have provided actual support to their pursuits. If a third cousin does the same thing, then I'll be happy for them, but since I'm not really invested, I am not proud.
I think that we may be having a disconnect on what we consider pride.
When I feel proud, it is a very distinct feeling that I rarely feel. I felt pride after successfully defending my senior thesis, or after coming back from a 9 month deployment. I don't feel pride after life's small victories, but I do feel it after successfully completing something that I have spent the better part of a year on.
You are talking about taking pride in something that you didn't do. I'm saying that taking pride in your race is no different than taking pride in showing up to a birthday party.
Maybe your race is #1. Maybe the birthday party is really awesome. Either way, if you are just showing up then you have nothing to be proud of. Let the people who did the work have the pride. If you really want to feel proud, you can do something worth being proud of.
This also works for shame obviously. I'm not ashamed of being white. I'm not proud of it either. Being white is just something that I don't think about very often.
You don't have to do something yourself in order to feel proud about it.
No, you don't, but if someone tells me that they are proud of having ice cream in their freezer I am going to avoid them because they are a fucking retard.
I asked you a question boy. Don't try and project your feelings on to me just because you can't counter it. If I were you I would sack up and either try to answer, or cede the point.
Only stupid ass retards would use strays as an argument. Seriously consider your argument right now and my reactions, try to figure it out. Yes this is my alt.
Why would only stupid ass retards use strays as an argument. The overwhelming majority of pets are former strays. Poor people aren't going to drop a couple of grand on a thoroughbred dog or cat. They are going to take in the one living under their porch.
Now are you going to argue or are you going to insult like a little bitch with hurt feelings?
What about strays? You really can't answer that question? You can't even try to pussy out by saying "well, I wasn't talking about strays so it doesn't really fit".
When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
Always wondered about the weird, passionate connection people feel to a team. Guess it's related to this pride business, which I find equally baffling.
ITT: Butthurt parents who think they had any effect on their kids beyond providing them an OK environment. Present data if I'm wrong.
They don't.
A chapter of Pinker’s book is devoted to discussing what Judith Rich Harris researched for her 1998 book The Nurture Assumption: twin and adoption studies (collectively known as behavioral genetic studies) have consistently shown that differences in parenting do not correspond to differences in how children turn out, once you control for heredity. Identical twins, as well other biological siblings, are no more similar when raised together than if raised apart (being about 50% and 25% similar overall, respectively). Adopted siblings, who grew up the same home and were exposed to the same parenting practices; with same amount of books; the same examples; the same degree of encouragement and discipline; the same amount of order or disorganization; the same level of quarrel or tranquility; the same permissiveness to watch TV; have sleepovers and go on dates—turn out to be no more similar than strangers plucked off the street at random. This is not just in IQ and large scale personality traits, such as how outgoing or talkative one is, but in real tangible “important” outcomes such as likelihood of getting divorced, finishing school (and the level of education obtained) getting into trouble with the law (Loehlin, Horn & Ernst, 2007); Harris, 2009, and even the income one makes as an adult (Bowles & Gintis, 2002; Caplan, 2009a); Caplan, 2009b), Edit, 3/17/14, [see also Cesarini, 2010, Hyytinen et al, 2013]. This also includes one’s body mass index (BMI); in defense (grudgingly) of Mike Huckabee and this infamous photo of him with his obese family, parenting has no impact on adult BMI, once heredity is controlled for (Grillo & Pogue-Geile, 1991; Harris, 2009; Keskitalo et al., 2008). It is their shared genes—not examples set by the parents—that explain the relationship between parents and their biological children (including the size of Huckabee and children). Here is a summary of all this in an essay by Harris about the absence of birth order effects.
Boxing fans would be a good example. It could be argued that racism is rampant in boxing. Ticket sales sort of depend on it. I really don't see the problem with it until racism mixes with hate.
We have analyzed genetic data for 326 microsatellite markers that were typed uniformly in a large multiethnic population-based sample of individuals as part of a study of the genetics of hypertension (Family Blood Pressure Program). Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed.
Because of our collective accomplishments. It's like being proud of your team even if you didn't score the game winning goal. We all contribute in our own way. We should have collective pride in our team. The White race is our team. It's no different than being proud of your team for winning a game even though you didn't score the game winning goal yourself.
No, because not all humans are the same and not all groups have contributed to humanity equally. The other races seem to destroy the progress we make to be honest. They're an impediment.
btw i just want to say its fucking hilarious to me that it took roughly 12-14 months before the major Voat shills like yourself stopped giving a fuck and started touting SRS tactics openly and without regard to it's obviousness.
In other words i fuckin love that you are getting desperate.
Implying half of that "shame" is even warranted. It's healthy to have a good understanding of your heritage and be inspired by the achievements of your forefathers.
Obviously having your racial identity being the only thing going for you makes you an awful loser. That doesn't negate the benefits of having some self respect and not letting other groups steamroll over you because you're the only colorblind actor in the room.
I never made that claim, but it would be difficult to preserve your race in colorblind mode.
I guarantee you're not a parent. Every self respecting parent wants the best for their own offspring. Taking a colorblind approach when out-group parents are only serving their in-group is a poor strategy.
This isn't even about race, it's simple group dynamics in a competitive world. The same logic would apply to religious groups.
I am a parent, I want what's best for my child. But why is it so hard to believe that I can want what's best for the entire next generation? I will obviously favor my own kind if I'm pressed against a wall, but why is it so hard to accept wanting what is best for everyone?
You can't get what's best for everyone. I'd argue there is a real opportunity cost with even trying, as opposed to purely looking out for your own family.
Unless you are super rich, chances are you have to deal with a few competitive situations that are inevitable for the near future.
Shitty Schools,
Incentives for non-white/male hiring practices,
Limited Mate Selection (For your Children)
If you take the "Utilitarian/colorblind" approach. You run the risk of making sacrifices that aren't in your child's best interest, for other people's children. Now theoretically if it was a reciprocal relationship, it wouldn't be a problem. historical evidence routinely shows that it never will be one.
Advocating your obvious self interest, will put you at odds with other out-groups. As demonstrated by rampant identity politics. This is why no self respecting agent should adopt a "for the all" approach. They open themselves and their allies up for abuse. (In many cases openly encourage it.)
Of course I would select the best for my children and myself. But if an option is there to also help others, why not? At the very least I can choose a route of "do no harm".
But if an option is there to also help others, why not?
I'm really not trying to convince you to start putting people in ovens for the sake of "muh interest".
I'm simply trying to point out that there are often times in life where it really is a 0 sum game. Those are the times that we get called racist/phobic for advocating for our in-group self interest.
Often times, it's not a zero sum game. It doesn't kill me to smile when I see a stranger, or be polite with the hijabi wearing old lady. It's the cucked politicians who make them my problem. Not themselves as people.
Great personal stance. Too bad you live in a silly world. You have fun not identifying with anyone (though if you do identify with anyone for any reason I would love to hear why you think that association isn't silly). While you're busy high-mindedly being better than that, everyone around you is identifying you one way or another. Two other comments here (currently) and I already see it, and this is just an online interaction. As long as others are going to do it, you're stuck in it. You can ignore it if you wish, but that starts pushing in the "first they came for the..." direction at some point. Maybe you'll get lucky and miss it.
You don't want to play kickball with the other kids, you don't have to join the game. Yet no matter how 'silly' this shit gets, you are playing this game. If you want to ignore the game, it only means you're going to do poorly at it. Your call. I would think that at some point soon enough you're going to need to pick a team, for whatever reason you do. When that time comes, I'll stick with my race; just eliminates one of the silly reasons to hate each other.
When I look at the way things are headed around me yeah, I am anticipating it.
Humans have never made an empire that stands the test of time, they all break down. New ones will rise and fall as long as there are humans with opposing desires; so basically as long as there are more than about 10 of us. It'd be ridiculous to assume ours wont at some point. We are living in an unprecedented time, using technologies that people didn't even imagine as magic in the past. More people than anyone creating or setting up our current situation could have ever imagined; the US was established when there were less than 1 billion people on the planet. No one could have ever seen this world coming. Perhaps as a result, this world wasn't set up to give a shit about most of us. I don't have faith in any currently established state to be able to withstand what comes along with us outstripping our ability to gather the resources everyone needs. And when things collapse, I don't see the attitude of 'White people are the cause of all the problems' to change to 'we're all in this together'.
It's a bleak outlook to be sure, but even if I'm wrong, I don't see a positive future for my family and people the way things are now. I would rather band together for my own silly reason than be fucked over by another person's silly reason.
damn....are you really that much of a spineless cuck? i know it sounds totally cliché and something a snobby old person would say...but when i see cucked comments like yours, i really am starting to get worried about the future of America.
Pride in children makes sense. You create and raise them. The same way a boss can take pride in his workers. But with the majority of your race, you had no influence whatsoever.
A chapter of Pinker’s book is devoted to discussing what Judith Rich Harris researched for her 1998 book The Nurture Assumption: twin and adoption studies (collectively known as behavioral genetic studies) have consistently shown that differences in parenting do not correspond to differences in how children turn out, once you control for heredity. Identical twins, as well other biological siblings, are no more similar when raised together than if raised apart (being about 50% and 25% similar overall, respectively). Adopted siblings, who grew up the same home and were exposed to the same parenting practices; with same amount of books; the same examples; the same degree of encouragement and discipline; the same amount of order or disorganization; the same level of quarrel or tranquility; the same permissiveness to watch TV; have sleepovers and go on dates—turn out to be no more similar than strangers plucked off the street at random. This is not just in IQ and large scale personality traits, such as how outgoing or talkative one is, but in real tangible “important” outcomes such as likelihood of getting divorced, finishing school (and the level of education obtained) getting into trouble with the law (Loehlin, Horn & Ernst, 2007); Harris, 2009, and even the income one makes as an adult (Bowles & Gintis, 2002; Caplan, 2009a); Caplan, 2009b), Edit, 3/17/14, [see also Cesarini, 2010, Hyytinen et al, 2013]. This also includes one’s body mass index (BMI); in defense (grudgingly) of Mike Huckabee and this infamous photo of him with his obese family, parenting has no impact on adult BMI, once heredity is controlled for (Grillo & Pogue-Geile, 1991; Harris, 2009; Keskitalo et al., 2008). It is their shared genes—not examples set by the parents—that explain the relationship between parents and their biological children (including the size of Huckabee and children). Here is a summary of all this in an essay by Harris about the absence of birth order effects.
The final issue is that a lot of the phenotypes that we racially code are recent. *This probably explains why groups like the Kalash and Nuristanis can look more like Europeans than South Asians, but they’re genetically more like South Asians.
What does any of this have to do with non-scientific things? I don’t really know. My interest in population structure is intellectual, not personal. But a certain type of person should probably stop talking about how white people have been in Europe for 40,000 years. First, the ancestors of modern Europeans 40,000 years ago were almost all residing outside of Europe. An assertion that holds until 15,000 years ago. And most would still be resident outside of Europe 8,000 years ago as depending on how you count/calculate And, perhaps more importantly, the typical phenotype of Northern Europeans probably really coalesced only around ~5,000 years ago.*
i knew the pre-WN richard spencer (we lost touch after his ideological changes ~2010). he’s smart. i have a hard time believing he doesn’t know the latest research, which was evening starting to be evident back then. so i think it’s myth-making.
p.s. a friend of mine sent me a link to a richard spencer interview with kevin macdonald last year i think, pointing to a specific segment of the podcast talking about ancient genetics. kevin was telling richard how europeans 40,000 years ago were white, and those are the ancestors of europeans. that’s wrong.
I am the evolutionary product of my race's and country's specific form of natural selection. So I have pride in being a part of the selection process that rewarded these traits.
Yeah, but it's like being proud of showing up. You didn't do anything except get born. Pride in your race is about as stupid as pride in your nation (assuming no military or similar service).
Sure, if all I ever did was be born. But what about my tiny individual contribution? I can't be proud of a family I was born into, helped grow, and continued on one more generation, passing on those social/genetic traits?
It's the collection of individuals that separates one group from another. I can't be proud of being just one more point in our favor?
Sure it required no effort to become my race, but it didn't require any effort to play sports in P. E. Doesn't mean I can't be proud of my team, how well we played, and my small contribution to it.
People aren't proud of the accomplishment of being their race, but being a small part of the accomplishments of their race.
The things that you are talking about being proud of (other than race) are all things that you participate in. You work for and try to help your family succeed. The same is true of any sports teams. Unless you have done some Martin Luther King Jr. levels of work for your race, then being proud of it is fucking stupid.
I've said nothing about what others can or cannot feel pride in. I've just said that feeling pride for something you have no control over is stupid. It's like being proud of your luck.
And you don't see a direct contradiction between those first two sentences?
Besides, I don't control being white but I do control my contribution to the white statistics. I can be proud of being one small part of my thriving white community. I try to believe skin color doesn't mean anything, but when their is such global consistency... There's a racial component.
And what grand and wonderful things have you done for white society? Are you the MLK or Ghandi of white people? It seems to me that you are setting the bar pretty low for what you are proud of.
Also, no. There is no contradiction between those two sentences.
The word can in this instance means to be able to. Stupid in this instance means dumb. You are able to be proud of your race, but unless you've done something substantial for your race it is stupid to be proud of it. Unless you've done some significant thing to raise your race up in spite of its circumstances, being proud of your race is like being proud of being born with straight teeth.
I can be proud of what I do without being Jesus. Besides in my experience, it's all those little niceties that society needs most. So any who keep those alive should feel proud about keeping it from dying off.
Yeah, it is nice to do those things, but I'm not going to have a sense of pride for holding the door for someone. I'm just going to do it to try and make their day nicer. If I were to feel proud over that I would be overbearingly smug.
Pride covers far more than your narrow and specific viewpoint.
"Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two antithetical meanings. With a negative connotation pride refers to a foolishly[1] and irrationally corrupt sense of one's personal value, status or accomplishments, used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a humble and content sense of attachment toward one's own or another's choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, and a fulfilled feeling of belonging."
I think it's fairly obvious that we're both dealing with the second definition, and I think that it is also equally obvious that I take issue with this definition being applied to a "whole group of people".
I feel pride when I accomplish something hard. I think that most people do, and I think that they should. I think it is stupid to have this feeling towards a group of people unless you somehow lead or significantly contribute to that group. MLK or Obama should feel pride towards their race since they led their race and are role models to people of that race (they aren't perfect people, and they both have made choices that I disagree with, but I cannot seriously say that they shouldn't be proud just because they are philanderers/warmongers. They have both accomplished a lot). On the other hand if a black person gets a masters degree in Engineering they should be proud to have gotten that degree. The fact that they are black has little to do with it though, so being proud of their blackness doesn't make sense.
I understand where you are coming from in quoting the dictionary definition of pride. I take issue with that definition though, because the pride that a person feels for their accomplishments is a different feeling than the pride that they have for belonging to a race. There is some gray area though in cases where race plays a role in their accomplishment. An instance of this is during the civil rights struggle of the 60's when the leadership of the movement was in danger of getting killed (see Medgar Evars, MLK, etc.) If you have the balls to die for the betterment of your race then you have earned the right to be proud. If you loot an electronics store because a cop shot a black guy then you don't. If you are polite and well spoken then you don't. People shouldn't feel pride for showing up. Not everyone deserves a trophy. I'm surprised that there is this much opposition to this idea on a forum as supposedly right leaning as voat.
I guess many view the differences between the races and have pride in the collective accomplishment they were a very small part of. Plus race is too simple a label and extends far beyond skin color. It's the traditions, the cultures, the personality traits, and all those little things that separate us. Each race is different because it followed a different path and rewarded different traits. There's obviously going to be varying degrees of pride depending on pride on myself vs pride in others or the significance/difficulty of the achievement.
In the end we can feel pride over whatever we want. As well as view another's pride as silly.
Maybe pride isn't the right word for it. After comparing the possibilities of what I could have been. I'm very grateful to have landed this specific combination.
Newp. I would not, cause I didn't fucking accomplish anything, they did. I would be PLEASED for them. For me,
pride comes from achievement, not happenstance. DOWNVOAT AWAY, TRIBALIST FAGGOTS! <3
i don't need to give a reason to do something, as no argument has been made against it. the only argument made was that it is peculiar/irrational. saying it's natural is a completely valid response.
and human nature is fine. the idea that we're evil and broken is just a meme.
So you agree that human nature is fine and rape and murder are included in it? And you agree they are the most horrendous things that can be done as well.
you'll find that the taboo against rape and murder are far more universal. but no, i didn't say that. and i believe you know i didn't say that, and are now arguing in bad faith.
also, you cannot find one successful society that condoned rape and murder. just like you can't find one that rejected any group pride, or was multicultural, or was against acknowledging your race or tribe.
and i believe you know i didn't say that, and are now arguing in bad faith.
I know. But you said human nature is alright. I said rape and murder are a part of it and you agree they are the worst crimes imaginable. I'm just saying human nature has a lot of awful in it - to reject that is wilful ignorance.
leftist preaches to white people that they shouldn't be proud of their white skin. remember it's ok for googles and other subhumans to be proud though. but not you for some reason
my family has been fighting in a war for over 5 generations. Heritage is that realization that all the thoughts and emotions you felt were also experienced by someone before you who also considered your future, and who spent more of their life than you fighting and creating a homeland for you.
seems like a lot of people here are ungrateful to be alive.
Whether or not I convince myself one way or another, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for people fighting for my home and culture. I didn't have ancestors who got free rides. They worked hard and fought hard for everything.
I'll honor them accordingly until the day I'm judged.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
thats a lot of exclamation marks
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
i do miss your hermana
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Anyway, I have to cut this short. I have to catch the red eye tonight, and I need to start packing. Thanks for the thoughtful conversation. You've definitely provided me with some food for though.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Yes, of course I do. For instance sickle cell anemia is common in people of African descent because it is an evolutionary response to malaria. White people rarely have it because few white families have taken up residence in Africa for long enough for this to occur. The same is true about lactose intolerance. Milk was a reliable source of food for northern Europeans so northern Europeans eventually developed a tolerance for lactose that lasted past their childhood. I'm not saying that genetic differences in no way shape races. I am saying that the only provable differences I have seen are mostly cosmetic, and that cultural differences seem to be the driving force for racial inequality.
One huge problem with your argument is that you are assuming that race as it exist today has been around long enough to differentiate our species in any real way. We've adapted to different diseases and different climates, but to develop different modes of intelligence via genetic adaptation takes way longer than 100,000 years that have elapsed since humans migrated out of Africa.
Also, the paper that you linked to doesn't seem to offer strong support for your point, though it does counter mine. From the discussion section:
Basically genetic parent-child traits are not strongly connected, and adoptive parent-child traits are negatively correlated.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I would be interested in this.
Maybe I am doing this for the sake of political correctness. My specialty is wind erosion, so I don't work very closely with humans. From my point of view it seems far more likely that cultural differences are likely drivers of racial characteristics. My basis for thinking this are minority children adopted into white families at a young age. Most of these children are adopted into upper middle class liberal households, and almost always end up going to college and succeeding. Granted, this is anecdotal so it doesn't count as evidence. Not only this but I am liberal by the standards of most people on this site (I view myself as a centrist since most liberals think I'm conservative, and most conservatives think I'm liberal). I do have a liberal background though. I am unaware of any studies that show strong evidence for genetics being the primary driver of non-cosmetic racial differences. Like I said before, I study dirt and wind. I would however be interested in seeing research that shows evidence for your point.
edit: I read over your second point more closely and found this problem with it: I do think that there are racial differences. I would have to have my head in the sand to think otherwise. I have previously stated in this conversation though that I'm not convinced genetics is the root cause of these differences, but rather culture is. European culture is the dominant culture for a reason. It has the best outcomes for the largest number of it's members. Middle eastern culture however has very good outcomes for it's leadership and shitty outcomes for everyone else. It seems to me that this is the dominant driver of non-cosmetic racial differences.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
The ones that you are talking about are predictive statistical models that show that genetics account for 40 - 70% of the variability in BMI. So yes, if we are talking about the role of genetics in body mass index then that is science. What you are doing is extrapolating from the BMI study and saying that it does count as scientific proof of differences in whatever it is exactly that you are attributing to race (which might possibly be a bullet point in the discussion section of a similar paper somewhere, but I doubt it). I'm not sure which traits you are attributing to race though, so you may want to clarify.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
You're missing the point here. If you are naturally lazy and you take the effort to get off of your ass and do something hard you should be proud. If you are naturally driven and you get off your ass to do something hard you should be proud. Your natural predisposition towards laziness or hard work (if there is such a thing. My time in the military has me convinced that this is a nurture and not a nature problem.) has nothing to do with what you do other than how hard it makes it.
As an example, my fiance and I are both working towards becoming Geologists. When we first started I was better at pattern recognition and figuring out spatial relationships than her, which made it easier for me to figure out what I was doing at first. She put in the work and consistently got the same grades or better than I did. After about a year to a year and a half we're roughly about the same level grade and accomplishment wise. It was easier for me to get there, but not as easy. She may have put an extra week or two of work in than I have over the last couple of years, but she got to the same place and we pushed each other to keep working hard. I'm not proud of my talent that helped me because it helped so little. For me to get where I am took a hell of a lot of hard work despite my talents that made it slightly easier on me than her.
As to your second point, I've already addressed that in my previous comment. I'm willing to change my view as soon as I start seeing some proof. Until then I'm going to assume that the scientific consensus is correct.
Swallow_That ago
Shame? Tell me my shame, cuck, and I will reply with all my people have given the world.
SoloPoloVision ago
Also the notion that you have to be loyal to your race because your race is looking out for you; Rich white people at the top would throw most of you under the bus just as soon as they would a black man. It doesn't matter how loyal you are to the white race, or how much you sacrifice to the white cause.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
you sound like a dumb bitch
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I have considered it, and I keep coming back to it. Maybe I'm incorrect for thinking that this is the case, but I'm unaware of any other thing that's been shown to explain the differences between races. For instance, we've mapped the human genome, and as far as I know, we haven't isolated any genes that control for intelligence that are over or underrepresented in different races. Maybe there are, but until I see something that logically explains the non-cosmetic differences between races other than culture coming from a reputable source. Actually as politicized as this issue is, I'd actually like to see multiple studies that reach the same or similar conclusions via multiple research methods before coming down hard one way or the other. One well performed study will provide some food for thought though.
Yes. It would be stupid to feel proud of your natural talents, and it is stupid to feel proud of your talents. Ever hear the phrase "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"? Being proud of something because you are naturally better than most people with a similar level of non-experience is stupid. If you develop that talent and become expert at something, that is when it is no longer stupid to be proud of it.
No, but I don't see your point here.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
Let's do this then pussy. How about i send your neighbor a free sighted m4 with a month's worth of range ammo just to put a bullet right up your fat cunt you fuckin bitch.
Gutta_Child ago
You sound like a huge faggot and im sure you pulled up google maps to pick a random county.
Dont LARP as a Texan before you catch yourself a fade
oedipusaurus_rex ago
The gay pride movement has it's roots in a time in our society when being outed as gay was physically dangerous. The first gays to come out of the closet, and the people in the stonewall riots had a lot to be proud of. They stood up to people who were threatening violence against them, and likely wouldn't have lost any sleep over killing them. An act like that is ballsy, and worth being proud of yourself over. The modern iteration of gay pride (in the US at least) is a little silly IMHO. It's not overtly dangerous to be gay, and being out does nothing other than get you friends who are looking to score identity politics points. Hell, the liberal reaction to Milo Yianoppolous has sealed the deal. If you are a gay white man, then you are a regular white man as far as the regressive left is concerned. Even among died in the wool republicans being gay isn't a bad thing as long as you're "one of the good ones".
I think it's ridiculous that we live in a society that fetishizes race the way we do. No one is capable of choosing the race that they are born into, and most of the differences between the races seem to be either cosmetic or cultural anyway. I do understand that racial pride movements arose in response to oppression (with the current white pride movement being the exception - it is overwhelmingly a cover that white supremacists use to try and appear less threatening). I just don't think that they have a place in modern society. Racial tension isn't going to go away until people quit talking about it. Besides, it's stupid to take pride in something that you haven't done (I'm sticking with my definition of pride - which sounds like your definition of personal pride. Impersonal pride isn't really a feeling that feels like it's on the same scale as personal pride, at least to me).
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I think it's really cool when we put a robot on Mars. I have the slightest inkling of an idea what a big achievement that is. I also understand how the team that pulled it of would feel proud of it. What I don't understand is why people expect me to be proud of a robot getting to Mars when I have nothing to do with the team that did it other than a small fraction of my tax money going to pay for it.
If I did nothing to be proud of then I shouldn't be proud. If someone is proud of someone else's achievements then they are proud of something that they had no part in. So, no I'm not proud when a soccer team wins, or when my country lands on another planet. I think it is really cool yes, and it does make me happy, but I have no sense of pride because I haven't achieved anything.
You did bring up family in one of your posts on this topic, and I like that example because it's on the border. If a close family member does something cool, then I am proud of them. I am not the one who did the thing to be proud of, but I am invested in my family, and have made sacrifices and have provided actual support to their pursuits. If a third cousin does the same thing, then I'll be happy for them, but since I'm not really invested, I am not proud.
I think that we may be having a disconnect on what we consider pride.
When I feel proud, it is a very distinct feeling that I rarely feel. I felt pride after successfully defending my senior thesis, or after coming back from a 9 month deployment. I don't feel pride after life's small victories, but I do feel it after successfully completing something that I have spent the better part of a year on.
tbh_gtk ago
BLACK ON WHITE MURDERS of 2015
oedipusaurus_rex ago
You are talking about taking pride in something that you didn't do. I'm saying that taking pride in your race is no different than taking pride in showing up to a birthday party.
Maybe your race is #1. Maybe the birthday party is really awesome. Either way, if you are just showing up then you have nothing to be proud of. Let the people who did the work have the pride. If you really want to feel proud, you can do something worth being proud of.
This also works for shame obviously. I'm not ashamed of being white. I'm not proud of it either. Being white is just something that I don't think about very often.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
No, you don't, but if someone tells me that they are proud of having ice cream in their freezer I am going to avoid them because they are a fucking retard.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
No. I choose my pets based on whether or not I like them enough to bring them in and pay their vet bills.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
that doesnt make any fuckin sense because that implies you chose it long enough to find out.
What a retard.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Never heard of strays?
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
dont try to fix it now u already said something dumb, just accept it and move on to next post
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I asked you a question boy. Don't try and project your feelings on to me just because you can't counter it. If I were you I would sack up and either try to answer, or cede the point.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
Put the fucking cock back in your mouth bitch and be quiet
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Now answer the god damned question, or fume and be all butthurt that you got outlogic'd by a stranger on the internet.
Texan_Pride ago
Your mother was a stray whore
oedipusaurus_rex ago
That's what I thought, bitch.
Schlomo_Kikenburger ago
Only stupid ass retards would use strays as an argument. Seriously consider your argument right now and my reactions, try to figure it out. Yes this is my alt.
Your mother sucked black cocks.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
That's what I though.
Schlomo_Kikenburger ago
wew faggot alert
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Why would only stupid ass retards use strays as an argument. The overwhelming majority of pets are former strays. Poor people aren't going to drop a couple of grand on a thoroughbred dog or cat. They are going to take in the one living under their porch.
Now are you going to argue or are you going to insult like a little bitch with hurt feelings?
Aaaron ago
He's the biggest bitch on voat and is utterly incapable of actual discourse. He literally can't do it.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
How about you make me bitch.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
hang yourself nigger
oedipusaurus_rex ago
What about strays? You really can't answer that question? You can't even try to pussy out by saying "well, I wasn't talking about strays so it doesn't really fit".
Bfwilley ago
You can but only if it took a village......................................
eagleshigh ago
Anglo proles *
fr33europe ago
Can I just say you are not your race' is the stupidest fuckin thing ive ever heard
middle_path ago
So what's the solution here?
Ar1 ago
Everybody else does it. Musical chairs sucks.
fr33europe ago
Because race is who you are as a person.
middle_path ago
How did you come to this conclusion?
fr33europe ago
It's fairly straightforward if you're not an utter retard
middle_path ago
You don't think they're over reporting on this to cause racial issues?
AverageAmerica ago
Turns out... we all work for CTR.
AverageAmerica ago
middle_path ago
You're going to get downvoted to shit, but I like this.
Artofchoke ago
I am. You are. All of us. We're the highest power there is.
middle_path ago
Won't this just cause more war, more strife and civil unrest?
Artofchoke ago
You're right, but you shouldn't be. Being in charge should bring more passion, not less.
CaliforniaOrange ago
You're trying too hard to be philosophical.
middle_path ago
There is nothing philosophical about it. If you accept one, you must accept the other.
CaliforniaOrange ago
I have a question for you.
If you're not your race, what are you?
middle_path ago
I simply am. Identifying oneself is like biting your own teeth. You can't do it, but the ego can.
Artofchoke ago
Always wondered about the weird, passionate connection people feel to a team. Guess it's related to this pride business, which I find equally baffling.
bourbonexpert ago
tell that to niggers and sand niggers. they are far and away the most racist people i have ever met.
eagleshigh ago
That would be coming out of the 'OK' environment and thus have negative effect.
middle_path ago
Are there? Even if I accept that others may be not as "advanced", don't you think a general neglect would make them act even more unfavorably?
middle_path ago
So you are advancing society, why only focus on your race?
eagleshigh ago
ITT: Butthurt parents who think they had any effect on their kids beyond providing them an OK environment. Present data if I'm wrong.
They don't.
Taming the “Tiger Mom” and Tackling the Parenting Myth
The Son Becomes The Father
Kal ago
Boxing fans would be a good example. It could be argued that racism is rampant in boxing. Ticket sales sort of depend on it. I really don't see the problem with it until racism mixes with hate.
middle_path ago
How?
GreatWhiteNorth ago
Whatever, faggot.
TheDude2 ago
Race cant even be probably defined.
eagleshigh ago
Citation needed.
TheDude2 ago
The racial categories represent a social-political construct for the race or races that respondents consider themselves
Source: Boundless. “Legal Definition of Race.” Boundless Sociology. Boundless, 26 May. 2016. Retrieved 24 Sep. 2016 from https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/race-and-ethnicity-10/race-79/legal-definition-of-race-471-8183/
Race is self identifying. Legally I can be black one minute and white the next. Race doesn't exist.
eagleshigh ago
Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies
Wow, 99.86 percent success rate! Pretty damn good for a 'social construct'.
TheDude2 ago
Doesn't stop anyone from calling themselves whatever they like. I highly recommend that everyone identifies as black or African on every form.
This also means they tried some sort of eugenics. For example, how much African DNA do you need to be considered black?
middle_path ago
But you didn't do the things you take pride in, why be proud?
auto_turret ago
I had a big ol long comment on deck for this. Then I thought, why not just put this piece of human trash against that there wall and fire at will?
middle_path ago
So murder before words?
auto_turret ago
Yes. I am done asking questions, or taking answers with you types. Kill on sight.
IronSack ago
Yea, we should all take a collective pride in our race. There's a difference between personal and collective pride. We should be proud to be White.
middle_path ago
But why?
IronSack ago
Because of our collective accomplishments. It's like being proud of your team even if you didn't score the game winning goal. We all contribute in our own way. We should have collective pride in our team. The White race is our team. It's no different than being proud of your team for winning a game even though you didn't score the game winning goal yourself.
middle_path ago
Don't you feel it would be more constructive to apply this idea to all humans?
IronSack ago
No, because not all humans are the same and not all groups have contributed to humanity equally. The other races seem to destroy the progress we make to be honest. They're an impediment.
middle_path ago
Buy not everyone in those racial groups causes these issues. So you would punish individuals who have done both wrong, just to prove a point?
IronSack ago
We're taking about groups of people, not individuals and who said anything about punishing people?
middle_path ago
We're talking about forests here, not trees.
eagleshigh ago
Lol
Texan_Pride ago
I bet you live in downtown Austin you fuckin faggot
eagleshigh ago
None.
middle_path ago
You're arguing on semantics and not my original point. If you take pride, you must also accept shame.
middle_path ago
Did you choose the race you were born as? Also, no.
fr33europe ago
What's your point? Who gives a shit if it's chosen or not
EdSnowden ago
If I got to choose again I'd choose white American 10 times out of 10.
fr33europe ago
Slavic master race 11/10
Texan_Pride ago
Call it luck, maybe divine intervention.
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
only whites have been to the moon. any other human races get higher than that?
Texan_Pride ago
btw i just want to say its fucking hilarious to me that it took roughly 12-14 months before the major Voat shills like yourself stopped giving a fuck and started touting SRS tactics openly and without regard to it's obviousness.
In other words i fuckin love that you are getting desperate.
QQ_More_PEW_PEW ago
Implying half of that "shame" is even warranted. It's healthy to have a good understanding of your heritage and be inspired by the achievements of your forefathers.
Obviously having your racial identity being the only thing going for you makes you an awful loser. That doesn't negate the benefits of having some self respect and not letting other groups steamroll over you because you're the only colorblind actor in the room.
middle_path ago
Self respect and preservation are not exclusive to idenyifying with your race.
QQ_More_PEW_PEW ago
I never made that claim, but it would be difficult to preserve your race in colorblind mode.
I guarantee you're not a parent. Every self respecting parent wants the best for their own offspring. Taking a colorblind approach when out-group parents are only serving their in-group is a poor strategy.
This isn't even about race, it's simple group dynamics in a competitive world. The same logic would apply to religious groups.
middle_path ago
I am a parent, I want what's best for my child. But why is it so hard to believe that I can want what's best for the entire next generation? I will obviously favor my own kind if I'm pressed against a wall, but why is it so hard to accept wanting what is best for everyone?
QQ_More_PEW_PEW ago
You can't get what's best for everyone. I'd argue there is a real opportunity cost with even trying, as opposed to purely looking out for your own family.
Unless you are super rich, chances are you have to deal with a few competitive situations that are inevitable for the near future.
If you take the "Utilitarian/colorblind" approach. You run the risk of making sacrifices that aren't in your child's best interest, for other people's children. Now theoretically if it was a reciprocal relationship, it wouldn't be a problem. historical evidence routinely shows that it never will be one.
Advocating your obvious self interest, will put you at odds with other out-groups. As demonstrated by rampant identity politics. This is why no self respecting agent should adopt a "for the all" approach. They open themselves and their allies up for abuse. (In many cases openly encourage it.)
middle_path ago
Of course I would select the best for my children and myself. But if an option is there to also help others, why not? At the very least I can choose a route of "do no harm".
QQ_More_PEW_PEW ago
I'm really not trying to convince you to start putting people in ovens for the sake of "muh interest".
I'm simply trying to point out that there are often times in life where it really is a 0 sum game. Those are the times that we get called racist/phobic for advocating for our in-group self interest.
Often times, it's not a zero sum game. It doesn't kill me to smile when I see a stranger, or be polite with the hijabi wearing old lady. It's the cucked politicians who make them my problem. Not themselves as people.
CausticRaz ago
Your race is you.
middle_path ago
Your species is you.
Foralltoosee ago
Petty as it may be, when everyone else is in a tribe, you sure as fuck don't want to be the only one outside of them.
Foralltoosee ago
Great personal stance. Too bad you live in a silly world. You have fun not identifying with anyone (though if you do identify with anyone for any reason I would love to hear why you think that association isn't silly). While you're busy high-mindedly being better than that, everyone around you is identifying you one way or another. Two other comments here (currently) and I already see it, and this is just an online interaction. As long as others are going to do it, you're stuck in it. You can ignore it if you wish, but that starts pushing in the "first they came for the..." direction at some point. Maybe you'll get lucky and miss it.
You don't want to play kickball with the other kids, you don't have to join the game. Yet no matter how 'silly' this shit gets, you are playing this game. If you want to ignore the game, it only means you're going to do poorly at it. Your call. I would think that at some point soon enough you're going to need to pick a team, for whatever reason you do. When that time comes, I'll stick with my race; just eliminates one of the silly reasons to hate each other.
middle_path ago
I understand your reasoning, but disagree. Rationalize it any way you want, but it sounds like you want a race war. Like you're anticipating it.
Foralltoosee ago
When I look at the way things are headed around me yeah, I am anticipating it.
Humans have never made an empire that stands the test of time, they all break down. New ones will rise and fall as long as there are humans with opposing desires; so basically as long as there are more than about 10 of us. It'd be ridiculous to assume ours wont at some point. We are living in an unprecedented time, using technologies that people didn't even imagine as magic in the past. More people than anyone creating or setting up our current situation could have ever imagined; the US was established when there were less than 1 billion people on the planet. No one could have ever seen this world coming. Perhaps as a result, this world wasn't set up to give a shit about most of us. I don't have faith in any currently established state to be able to withstand what comes along with us outstripping our ability to gather the resources everyone needs. And when things collapse, I don't see the attitude of 'White people are the cause of all the problems' to change to 'we're all in this together'.
It's a bleak outlook to be sure, but even if I'm wrong, I don't see a positive future for my family and people the way things are now. I would rather band together for my own silly reason than be fucked over by another person's silly reason.
middle_path ago
So two wrongs make a right?
bourbonexpert ago
damn....are you really that much of a spineless cuck? i know it sounds totally cliché and something a snobby old person would say...but when i see cucked comments like yours, i really am starting to get worried about the future of America.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
the good thing is its obvious you arent american so we dont need to give a fuck about what you think. Enjoy your life as a pussy.
bourbonexpert ago
lolwut? k lol
EllenPaosEgo ago
No but 2 bullets makes a dead nigger and saves the life of your family.
fr33europe ago
Amen
middle_path ago
Pride in children makes sense. You create and raise them. The same way a boss can take pride in his workers. But with the majority of your race, you had no influence whatsoever.
eagleshigh ago
Parents are meaningless to a child's outcome.
middle_path ago
Source? You think it's all genetics?
eagleshigh ago
Taming the “Tiger Mom” and Tackling the Parenting Myth
The Son Becomes The Father
middle_path ago
I'm very curious to see how the actual research was done on this.
So do you feel we have no control in how we turn out, since heredity seems to control everything?
eagleshigh ago
Be ready for a lot of reading then. Those links in the quote explain it.
Save for extreme neglect and abuse, parents are meaningless to a child's life success.
Texan_Pride ago
Go away kike, FYI @easgleshigh was a huge part of /v/niggers and he left, his account was then taken over by this kike.
eagleshigh ago
what
is what i said wrong?
Texan_Pride ago
im convinced an actual nigger took over that account which tbh would be pretty fuckin funny
**google
eagleshigh ago
nope
alalzia ago
Also we are not like our ancestors
eagleshigh ago
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/our-magnificent-bastard-race/#comment-1538023
Sosacms ago
I am the evolutionary product of my race's and country's specific form of natural selection. So I have pride in being a part of the selection process that rewarded these traits.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Yeah, but it's like being proud of showing up. You didn't do anything except get born. Pride in your race is about as stupid as pride in your nation (assuming no military or similar service).
Sosacms ago
Sure, if all I ever did was be born. But what about my tiny individual contribution? I can't be proud of a family I was born into, helped grow, and continued on one more generation, passing on those social/genetic traits?
It's the collection of individuals that separates one group from another. I can't be proud of being just one more point in our favor?
Sure it required no effort to become my race, but it didn't require any effort to play sports in P. E. Doesn't mean I can't be proud of my team, how well we played, and my small contribution to it.
People aren't proud of the accomplishment of being their race, but being a small part of the accomplishments of their race.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
The things that you are talking about being proud of (other than race) are all things that you participate in. You work for and try to help your family succeed. The same is true of any sports teams. Unless you have done some Martin Luther King Jr. levels of work for your race, then being proud of it is fucking stupid.
Sosacms ago
I think you just have too narrow of a view of what others can feel pride over and what they need to do to feel that pride.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I've said nothing about what others can or cannot feel pride in. I've just said that feeling pride for something you have no control over is stupid. It's like being proud of your luck.
Sosacms ago
And you don't see a direct contradiction between those first two sentences?
Besides, I don't control being white but I do control my contribution to the white statistics. I can be proud of being one small part of my thriving white community. I try to believe skin color doesn't mean anything, but when their is such global consistency... There's a racial component.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
And what grand and wonderful things have you done for white society? Are you the MLK or Ghandi of white people? It seems to me that you are setting the bar pretty low for what you are proud of.
Also, no. There is no contradiction between those two sentences.
The word can in this instance means to be able to. Stupid in this instance means dumb. You are able to be proud of your race, but unless you've done something substantial for your race it is stupid to be proud of it. Unless you've done some significant thing to raise your race up in spite of its circumstances, being proud of your race is like being proud of being born with straight teeth.
Sosacms ago
I can be proud of what I do without being Jesus. Besides in my experience, it's all those little niceties that society needs most. So any who keep those alive should feel proud about keeping it from dying off.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Yeah, it is nice to do those things, but I'm not going to have a sense of pride for holding the door for someone. I'm just going to do it to try and make their day nicer. If I were to feel proud over that I would be overbearingly smug.
Sosacms ago
Think you confuse pride with arrogance.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
That's funny, because I was just thinking the same thing about you.
Pride is what you feel when you accomplish something.
Arrogance is what you feel when you think that you are better than other people for arbitrary reasons.
Sosacms ago
Pride covers far more than your narrow and specific viewpoint.
"Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two antithetical meanings. With a negative connotation pride refers to a foolishly[1] and irrationally corrupt sense of one's personal value, status or accomplishments, used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a humble and content sense of attachment toward one's own or another's choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, and a fulfilled feeling of belonging."
oedipusaurus_rex ago
I think it's fairly obvious that we're both dealing with the second definition, and I think that it is also equally obvious that I take issue with this definition being applied to a "whole group of people".
I feel pride when I accomplish something hard. I think that most people do, and I think that they should. I think it is stupid to have this feeling towards a group of people unless you somehow lead or significantly contribute to that group. MLK or Obama should feel pride towards their race since they led their race and are role models to people of that race (they aren't perfect people, and they both have made choices that I disagree with, but I cannot seriously say that they shouldn't be proud just because they are philanderers/warmongers. They have both accomplished a lot). On the other hand if a black person gets a masters degree in Engineering they should be proud to have gotten that degree. The fact that they are black has little to do with it though, so being proud of their blackness doesn't make sense.
I understand where you are coming from in quoting the dictionary definition of pride. I take issue with that definition though, because the pride that a person feels for their accomplishments is a different feeling than the pride that they have for belonging to a race. There is some gray area though in cases where race plays a role in their accomplishment. An instance of this is during the civil rights struggle of the 60's when the leadership of the movement was in danger of getting killed (see Medgar Evars, MLK, etc.) If you have the balls to die for the betterment of your race then you have earned the right to be proud. If you loot an electronics store because a cop shot a black guy then you don't. If you are polite and well spoken then you don't. People shouldn't feel pride for showing up. Not everyone deserves a trophy. I'm surprised that there is this much opposition to this idea on a forum as supposedly right leaning as voat.
Sosacms ago
I guess many view the differences between the races and have pride in the collective accomplishment they were a very small part of. Plus race is too simple a label and extends far beyond skin color. It's the traditions, the cultures, the personality traits, and all those little things that separate us. Each race is different because it followed a different path and rewarded different traits. There's obviously going to be varying degrees of pride depending on pride on myself vs pride in others or the significance/difficulty of the achievement.
In the end we can feel pride over whatever we want. As well as view another's pride as silly.
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Well said.
Sosacms ago
Good talk. I enjoy these Voat moments. I see what you are saying and agree in a way.
Now let's call each other faggot cucks and have a nice day ;)
oedipusaurus_rex ago
Lol. Hope you enjoy sucking on all those dicks tonight cuck. Take it easy.
middle_path ago
But why? Why not just accept it, why take pride?
fr33europe ago
Because he's not a Jew you Fucking Jew.
Sosacms ago
Maybe pride isn't the right word for it. After comparing the possibilities of what I could have been. I'm very grateful to have landed this specific combination.
Eualos ago
I feel similarly as well.
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
i'll take shame for the white race when anyone presents me with something to be ashamed of.
and fuck this hyper-individualist bullshit. i'm allowed to take pride in my family. taking pride in my race is the same principle.
middle_path ago
If your neighbor (of your same race) invented a device that made him world famous, would you feel pride?
Artofchoke ago
Newp. I would not, cause I didn't fucking accomplish anything, they did. I would be PLEASED for them. For me, pride comes from achievement, not happenstance. DOWNVOAT AWAY, TRIBALIST FAGGOTS! <3
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
yes. of my neighbourhood and my race. call it a granfalloon if you want. it's human nature to do this.
middle_path ago
Rape and murder are also in human nature, does that make it acceptable?
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
did you just compare taking pride in your group to the worst crimes imaginable?
dear god, wth?
middle_path ago
No. I mentioned it because "being human nature" is no reason to do something. Human nature is awful and egotistical.
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
i don't need to give a reason to do something, as no argument has been made against it. the only argument made was that it is peculiar/irrational. saying it's natural is a completely valid response.
and human nature is fine. the idea that we're evil and broken is just a meme.
middle_path ago
So you agree that human nature is fine and rape and murder are included in it? And you agree they are the most horrendous things that can be done as well.
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
you'll find that the taboo against rape and murder are far more universal. but no, i didn't say that. and i believe you know i didn't say that, and are now arguing in bad faith.
also, you cannot find one successful society that condoned rape and murder. just like you can't find one that rejected any group pride, or was multicultural, or was against acknowledging your race or tribe.
middle_path ago
I know. But you said human nature is alright. I said rape and murder are a part of it and you agree they are the worst crimes imaginable. I'm just saying human nature has a lot of awful in it - to reject that is wilful ignorance.
not_shadowbanned_yet ago
that's a lovely strawman you built there. you shoving in nick cage or edward woodward?
EarlPoncho ago
leftist preaches to white people that they shouldn't be proud of their white skin. remember it's ok for googles and other subhumans to be proud though. but not you for some reason
middle_path ago
Yup. Double speak plain and simple. The right is just as guilty.
EarlPoncho ago
what prominent people on the right are talking about how they are proud to be white? what world do you live in? you leftists live in a fantasy world
middle_path ago
Not a leftist, but let's say all of voat.
Texan_Pride ago
Says the faggot kike @middle_path who has no true heritage and had to steal it
nothing is more important to all of you than your race and your people. Trying to claim the opposite is some crypto-jew tactics.
If you don't have that connection to your history than you are a useful idiot in the decline of western civilization
AverageAmerica ago
I am curious what the original source is for "true heritage".
No sarcasm serious question.
Texan_so_fuck_you ago
my family has been fighting in a war for over 5 generations. Heritage is that realization that all the thoughts and emotions you felt were also experienced by someone before you who also considered your future, and who spent more of their life than you fighting and creating a homeland for you.
seems like a lot of people here are ungrateful to be alive.
armday2day ago
Because this obvious form of divide and conquer wouldn't please your Jew overlords?
Texan_Pride ago
what is this post dividing me from, eurocucks? Swede fags?
middle_path ago
Appropriate name. Could you explain why your race is the most important thing?
Texan_Pride ago
Whether or not I convince myself one way or another, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for people fighting for my home and culture. I didn't have ancestors who got free rides. They worked hard and fought hard for everything.
I'll honor them accordingly until the day I'm judged.