Rule review 16/11 (videosModTalk)

submitted ago by InnocentBystander

I feel now would be a good time to go over our preferred method conflict resolution. We feel civil discussion is a *necessary* ability in order to get community consensus. [Our preferred appeal methods.](https://voat.co/v/videosModTalk/1405328)

If we put up a sticky every time one user was upset, there would always be a sticky, and nobody would read it or care. @Violentlight said [it more eloquently](https://voat.co/v/videosModTalk/1393397/6776933) than I can.

Also, some have asked about the history of rules here, so I have begun making [a collection of old mod related posts](https://voat.co/v/videosModTalk/1404441). It is still missing some, as they can be hard to find, but much of it is there.

Now, to the point. This sticky is to determine whether spamming smail is considered spamming.

For the past year+ we have never differentiated spam by type. Posts, comments, spam reports, were all treated the same. If it is a user they get warnings followed by temp ban, followed by perma-ban. Bots/adspam gets instant perma-ban. Smail may be new, but spam reports are not. Nothing about this is new. We have warned many users over it. Many delicate types like to hit the report button when their feeling get hurt. We ask them to stop, then threaten them with a temp-ban. It almost always stops with the warning.

We've never received a complaint over this practice, until yesterday. The banned user is not appealing the ban. He doesn't care.

The community has been misled at times, and issues are conflated, for now we just want to answer the question of whether we continue with the ruleset as it has been, or if we need to change the ban policy.

A couple things to consider: -No user ever gets caught with a surprise ban. They are always warned, and made to understand before it gets to that point. -We have banned 'real' users before. I even made a [PV post where I asked them for help](https://voat.co/v/ProtectVoat/1070322) -Reasons and conversation that leads to a ban can always be found or watched at /v/videosModTalk. Transparency for everything. -Agenda driven trolls (eg. Spamalak), are persistent and malicious. If we allow them, things will decline. Sure, we can probably ignore one guy. But then we have to allow the hurt feelings, and the next trolls that show up. This removes one of our tools and will affect everyones experience.

A follow-up question, does the length of the temp-bans need to change?

**NOTE: Due to potential abuse, voats do not count for anything. Make a comment to share your opinion. Even if someone else has already said the same thing.** We will read every comment.

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Cuckbot ago

Remove the ban and get some more janitors if you are overwhelmed. It will also be very difficult for mederoaters to prove if someone has been spamming because other users have to take their word for it.

@faustian wrote this post which I'm sharing here.

I made a mistake yesterday in suggesting a new rule, and I'd like to update my position now. There is no doubt that the mods of v/videos are well liked within your community, and from the comments I've read by frequent users to this sub, you all do a great job. In the past many of you have actively advocated for less restrictions and less rules, and as such, I see your aversion to a new rule now. If you allowed such a rule, the prospect of abuse is far greater, as there is no way for the rest of us to see the report spam issues or the warnings the mods give etc... It's a bad idea.

In the old days, report spam would show in your mailbox, but now it's in moderator mail.... there's little to no potential harassment issue because 'your mailbox is getting hammered etc.' & the inconvenience is far less to mods... I can also see that users may take advantage of this issue, and it may become a nuisance. However, there's no rule against being an asshole on this forum-nor should there ever be. I think you agree that nuisance does not warrant censorship.

My opinion, you should unban AOU, for the same reasons you have advocated for less restrictions and rules, for our freedom of speech. Deal with the report spam issues as they come. If you feel truly overwhelmed, bring on a couple of active users in this sub to your team. Admins once said there would be a way for the community to pick the sys mods.. so, maybe you can make a thread and ask your active users if any of them are interested in helping go through the report spam, then bring them on to the team? Absent that, you'll just have to go through all the report spam... but, you are right, no new rule.

Edit since the thread is fairly unclear repoting spamming as per the site rules should not be bannable.

Violentlight ago

It's not that we are overwhelmed. Its that I would like to have the 'Report Spam' button remain relevant for the team. I don't think its the place to have a protest. We spent months talking to AOU about his concerns with spam. We tried to explain many times that v/videos runs off of a community decided definition of spam. AOU was helpful with his spam reports at one time. But he made it very clear to us that he was going to use it to protest now. We gave him so many options to bring his concerns to the community. But at our last sticky, he didn't even show up. So I just have no idea how to help him.

I just want the smail to remain relevant. I really appreciate the users that help us out by reporting spam. We would probably have found it ourselves. But we certainly find it faster by checking smail in the morning. And when we get notifications back, we get to the spam even quicker.

I would like for users to have a little bit of responsibility as well. We didn't spring this on AOU. We worked for months with him. We told him all his options to bring his concerns to the community. Because we sure as hell are not changing the rules because of one user. He never took it to the community. He just ramped up his reporting to smail.

Cuckbot ago

The whole defense of the ban so far has been because its affecting the sub because it means you have to sift through more reports. That can be solved with a couple of janitors rather than banning someone from a default sub.

InnocentBystander ago

whole defense of the ban so far has been because its affecting the sub

Not how I am looking at it.
The ban is for repeatedly, and intentionally breaking a rule.

When we talk about how it affects us, that is just to counter the claim that it is harmless.
One guy we could live with. But open it up for abuse, and there are many others who have tried the 'spamming the report button game'. They stopped because of warnings.
AOU knows what he is doing, and it is both malicious and intentional. He has an agenda. And does not care what the community thinks.

Your proposed solution of adding more mods is not something I am comfortable with.
You roll the dice every time you appoint one. So we have tried to maintain a minimum.