Not really sure - found the username somewhere and clicked on it. I get buried in mentions, but maybe I got it from you. Didn't see a comment, so I commented.
Whats your problem old person? Welcome to business and physical energy logic. Oh, dont want a lay-off at old age, it was your choice, you couldve worked for government. Its a paycheck, in a business transaction, in capitalism. Don't fucking expect them to look out for you. Now get out of the way.
I work for a healthcare company that is within the top 10 largest in the country.
We lost 65% of our development team over the last year. We don't plan on replacing anyone. We need to continue to take on new projects as well as maintain the 100+ apps we have written. We now have a team of five. But the good news is that our CEOs had a record salary last year and that looks to be even larger this year.
Current retirement age in Britain is 67. That gives 67 - 50 = 17 years to do something after exiting IBM.
IBM could be open about its intentions and give people 20 year and 30 year contracts; allowing people to prepare for their next job. This works for the army and police forces.
These big companies consistently have to lie to cover for what they are really up to. Its part of standard policy because if they were transparent it would allow people insight into how these organizations really worked.
A good friend of mine made the mistake of working for IBM. Laid off at 48yrs old after putting over 20yrs in with the company. He said the same thing. As he was working his way up in seniority, he saw older folks getting laid off because of their age, not their abilities. On more than one occasion he was pissed off that they would lay off a key employee on projects he was working on, creating a larger work load for others and wasting time training clueless noobs fresh out of college, thus slowing the whole project down. Didn't really sink in until it was his turn. After laying him off, managers were calling him asking him for information on a few projects. Diplomatically, told them all to fuck off.
This is why you don't allow your nations to be flooded with millions of people from destitute countries where your salary = wealthy. They will work for wealthy x .5.
IBM has a long track record of 'restructure and layoff' of it's Legacy Employees. I know many retired IBM Employees from the mainframe days up thru the early Desktop PC Era. Many convergent threads played a role in IBM's demise, along with CRAY and DEC also. In the majority of cases they each were told of their impending layoff due to 'corporate restructuring', always included personnel with 20+ Years in or were over age 50 and worst of all many had to endure the indignity of training their replacements, who in most cases were either 20-something pajeets from Bangalore or worse Chinese H1-B's. Many are still bitter to this day. There you go.
AT&T did the same. They fired virtually everyone that ever worked on the American telecom infrastructure whose job it was to make sure it worked in the event of a war or other catastrophe. For about 10 years there in the early to mid 90s to mid 2000s if the shit really hit the fan not only would the phone networks not work but military communication would have gone down as well which is why satellite communication technology really kicked off. Its only recently started to be genuinely upgraded because fixing all the cable splices that went undocumented and unmapped cables is too expensive (also copper is worth recycling today, it was cheap in the 90s) so fiber backbones are starting to be laid down.
There are still situations were major cities in the US don't have independent connections to telecoms backbones and are patched into another cities telecom backbone. Most of South Dakota for example is connected to Minnesota with no real major telecom backbone lines going north or west. If something were to happen to Minneapolis then most of South Dakota would go offline and be extremely difficult to send communications into or out of that area. I think the southern half of Alabama would have similar issues if Mississippi went dark.
Excellent info. Appreciate you sharing this. AT&T seems to be doing the same as Verizon is doing with their FiOS system in the Mid-Atlantic and New England. Ripping out all the legacy copper telephone circuits and replacing everything with fibre optics. Their so-called 'last mile' technology and they also claim it's 5G up-gradable compliant. Big problem however is if there is a power failure you lose all telephone, cable and internet service. Seems that the FiOS Network 'Helper-Monkey' Installers they are hiring are not installing Battery Backup units to go with the ONT's (Optical Network Terminal Interface) so when the power goes off say during a lightning storm you lose everything. Phone, Net and Cable TV. Of course 95% of Verizon customers will not expect their stuff to still work. Typical Verizon half-ass job. Almost as f-cked up as Comcast who has a proven track record of incompetence even worse in Customer Service than Verizon.
Its worse than that. I know for a fact that emergency service provisioning in many areas of the United States are on precisely the same provisioning networks as ordinary customers which is technically illegal because telephone services to police, ambulance, fire department etc can be life or death services people depend on.
Shit, that's not just IBM. That's American corporate culture.
I went though the same thing last year and the dumb fucking team of pajeets they hired to replace me couldn't do the job. I shit you not, they rehired me.
Good for you. Hope they gave you back your previous position salary and benefits. Sadly most places would rather cove up this thing when they hire "curry-stinks" and find out they don't know jack-squat.
I taught those fuckers every damned thing I had learned on the job, and they still fucked it up. I even wrote 100+ page guides for them explaining how to do my job!
IBM insists it's not deliberately axing older staff. Internal secret docs state otherwise... • The Register
'In March 2018, ProPublica and Mother Jones reported that IBM for years has been implementing a layoff strategy that targeted older workers. ', "Yet confidential IBM documents submitted to the court in mid-December by Langley's legal team suggest the opposite."
'"IBM makes its employment decisions based on skills and business conditions – not age,” said IBM spokesperson Ed Barbini, in a statement. '
'IBM is still refusing to turn over documents in a bombshell age-discrimination lawsuit that attorneys representing plaintiff Jonathan Langley believe will show Big Blue has deliberately and systematically shed older workers. '
'Since those claims came to light, IBM has been sued in New York, Texas, and California over age discrimination allegations. '
Older workers tend to get paid more. They are cutting costs. And one thing I've seen too often in technology is that older people, many of them, don't stay current. IBM is struggling to stay relevant. They need knowledgeable up to date employees.
You do realize that COBOL never went away right? or FORTRAN? Or old fucking mainframes?
Its just an illusion that everything is new and shiny. A lot of sectors, like banking, still relies on some old-as-shit stuff that you'd probably turn your nose up at learning.
That guy? He's smart as fuck, because when they can him, he can sock them with a discrimination lawsuit, and if they need the help desperately enough for some old shit, he can get a consultant fee too.
I've written fortran, you? You realize anyone running a COBOL based mainframe system is trying to move in another direction because it's ancient and unmaintainable, right? There is an entire industry of tools to convert COBOL into more modern languages. That's why you will almost never meet anyone that actually knows COBOL unless they are approaching retirement age.
A lot of sectors, especially banking, are doing everything they can to get away from it because modern banks are technology focused. They can not compete without modern systems.
That guy is dumb as fuck. He was laid off, given plenty of change, and just because he says he was great and had ok reviews doesn't mean he wasn't an intolerable dickhead that no one liked that put him near the top of the list to get rid of.
Yes they do need knowledgeable and up to date employees and its not really a problem to get rid of some old codger that only writes / uses older tools when when newer standards and tools can do the job in a more reliable, efficient, or productive way. They don't automatically get those by hiring young people with no knowledge, experience, or ability to do what the older employer used to do.
IBM killed off their server business by staff layoffs, they killed off most of their materials and computer science research divisions at the same time, they killed off their desktop business, killed their laptop and workstation brands until Lenovo got it all for a steal. There is a point where cutting costs doesn't actually improve the health of the business it just limits themselves because they just fired a bunch of knowledgeable up to date employees so some rich greedy prick can live off the profits as the entire business declines. You can only trim the fat so often before you just start cutting into the muscle and bones of the company.
get those by hiring young people with no knowledge, experience, or ability to do what the older employer used to do even if they hire someone as a direct replacement.
Because that's not what they do if they are not retarded. They hire an experienced developer in the technical direction they want to go with experience in a tangential industry. You can find older people like that but they are rare. They are either incompetents that never bothered to maintain current skills or they moved off into management by time they are that old. You end up with someone probably between 40-45 years old with 20+ years experience often working with exactly what you want to move towards.
IBM hasn't done much right in recent history but it doesn't mean this in particular is a bad move.
IME - most computer training is bloated and sucks. Anyone with a foundation of computer science training can learn anything with oreilly books. Reducing costs with cheap labor rarely saves and does not position the company for innovating new products. The problem was not defined properly - reducing the middle line is easier than increasing the top line with profitable growth. A lazy man's strategy is not sustainable and killed the innovation engine which created the firm in the first place. Easier to destroy value rather than creating it. In this case, it maximized shareholder value while silently killing the marketplace. And here we are.
I bet that guy who knows perl will get a higher paying job if you fire him.
I like the "once we have time to..." You know you'll never have time and that guy will keep writing and supporting ancient code forever.
I'm not that guy but I was somewhat recently offered a very high paying job if I would learn perl and rewrite 20+ years of professional developers perl code for a major federal contractor. Could probably retire there 90 years old still working on that project.
PGIssDumb9 ago
Wow
Crensch ago
@argosciv @kevdude @srayzie @Vindicator
Look at the comment above and tell me he's not upvoting himself.
argosciv ago
LOL! Did we discover this at the same time?
Check yo mentions xD
Crensch ago
Not really sure - found the username somewhere and clicked on it. I get buried in mentions, but maybe I got it from you. Didn't see a comment, so I commented.
ArcturianDeathTrap ago
Whats your problem old person? Welcome to business and physical energy logic. Oh, dont want a lay-off at old age, it was your choice, you couldve worked for government. Its a paycheck, in a business transaction, in capitalism. Don't fucking expect them to look out for you. Now get out of the way.
jesus_is_lord ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MckOVfIXzho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOmu2Tjxw5U
https://imgoat.com/uploads/c5bde74a8f/181735.png
https://imgoat.com/uploads/c5bde74a8f/181727.png ..,
http://www.avenueoflight.com/2012/07/23/lucifer-sun-worship/
aCuriousYahnz ago
I work for a healthcare company that is within the top 10 largest in the country.
We lost 65% of our development team over the last year. We don't plan on replacing anyone. We need to continue to take on new projects as well as maintain the 100+ apps we have written. We now have a team of five. But the good news is that our CEOs had a record salary last year and that looks to be even larger this year.
roznak ago
Interesting, I am in the exact same problem.
aCuriousYahnz ago
What part of the country do you live in? :)
roznak ago
Europe
A_M_Swallow ago
Current retirement age in Britain is 67. That gives 67 - 50 = 17 years to do something after exiting IBM.
IBM could be open about its intentions and give people 20 year and 30 year contracts; allowing people to prepare for their next job. This works for the army and police forces.
asdf2345 ago
Pretty sure every major company in America does this
homelane ago
The older staff are the highest paid and therefore the first to go.
newoldwave ago
The older staff are the highest paid and therefore the first to go.
wgtt911 ago
out with the old in with INDIANS... IBM is now a Indian company more than 50% of employees are in INDIA..... boycott if you can....
Walk1 ago
These big companies consistently have to lie to cover for what they are really up to. Its part of standard policy because if they were transparent it would allow people insight into how these organizations really worked.
Goys-R-Us ago
Member when working for IBM meant a job for life? Neither do I.
aCuriousYahnz ago
or remember when saying you worked for IBM would be something to take pride in
videocodec ago
Replace older for white and get replaced means some streetshitting Indian gets your job and that's what's going on
MBB ago
A good friend of mine made the mistake of working for IBM. Laid off at 48yrs old after putting over 20yrs in with the company. He said the same thing. As he was working his way up in seniority, he saw older folks getting laid off because of their age, not their abilities. On more than one occasion he was pissed off that they would lay off a key employee on projects he was working on, creating a larger work load for others and wasting time training clueless noobs fresh out of college, thus slowing the whole project down. Didn't really sink in until it was his turn. After laying him off, managers were calling him asking him for information on a few projects. Diplomatically, told them all to fuck off.
chirogonemd ago
This is why you don't allow your nations to be flooded with millions of people from destitute countries where your salary = wealthy. They will work for wealthy x .5.
Low_Paid_Porno_Noob ago
Are his initials MF?
GimmeTheUsual ago
Should've stuck them with a consultant fee, mail them an invoice and take them to collections.
Fucking corporate "rightsizer" fucks.
Standfast999 ago
Destroying innovation and joining the race to zero, resulting in less market to share in the long term. Ah well, they can hire more patent trolls.
Maroonsaint ago
KILL OLD PEOPLE
lord_nougat ago
[in minecraft]
samy90a44 ago
IBM has a long track record of 'restructure and layoff' of it's Legacy Employees. I know many retired IBM Employees from the mainframe days up thru the early Desktop PC Era. Many convergent threads played a role in IBM's demise, along with CRAY and DEC also. In the majority of cases they each were told of their impending layoff due to 'corporate restructuring', always included personnel with 20+ Years in or were over age 50 and worst of all many had to endure the indignity of training their replacements, who in most cases were either 20-something pajeets from Bangalore or worse Chinese H1-B's. Many are still bitter to this day. There you go.
Gamio ago
AT&T did the same. They fired virtually everyone that ever worked on the American telecom infrastructure whose job it was to make sure it worked in the event of a war or other catastrophe. For about 10 years there in the early to mid 90s to mid 2000s if the shit really hit the fan not only would the phone networks not work but military communication would have gone down as well which is why satellite communication technology really kicked off. Its only recently started to be genuinely upgraded because fixing all the cable splices that went undocumented and unmapped cables is too expensive (also copper is worth recycling today, it was cheap in the 90s) so fiber backbones are starting to be laid down.
There are still situations were major cities in the US don't have independent connections to telecoms backbones and are patched into another cities telecom backbone. Most of South Dakota for example is connected to Minnesota with no real major telecom backbone lines going north or west. If something were to happen to Minneapolis then most of South Dakota would go offline and be extremely difficult to send communications into or out of that area. I think the southern half of Alabama would have similar issues if Mississippi went dark.
samy90a44 ago
Excellent info. Appreciate you sharing this. AT&T seems to be doing the same as Verizon is doing with their FiOS system in the Mid-Atlantic and New England. Ripping out all the legacy copper telephone circuits and replacing everything with fibre optics. Their so-called 'last mile' technology and they also claim it's 5G up-gradable compliant. Big problem however is if there is a power failure you lose all telephone, cable and internet service. Seems that the FiOS Network 'Helper-Monkey' Installers they are hiring are not installing Battery Backup units to go with the ONT's (Optical Network Terminal Interface) so when the power goes off say during a lightning storm you lose everything. Phone, Net and Cable TV. Of course 95% of Verizon customers will not expect their stuff to still work. Typical Verizon half-ass job. Almost as f-cked up as Comcast who has a proven track record of incompetence even worse in Customer Service than Verizon.
Gamio ago
Its worse than that. I know for a fact that emergency service provisioning in many areas of the United States are on precisely the same provisioning networks as ordinary customers which is technically illegal because telephone services to police, ambulance, fire department etc can be life or death services people depend on.
Now they are on the same networks as non vital communications is one thing but you can get your ass cut off if you use to much data or too many calls, the same shit has happened to emergency services. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/verizon-throttled-fire-departments-unlimited-data-during-calif-wildfire/ this shit is not meant to be possible and is criminally negligent. Coordination is vital to keep people, keep firefighters alive.
Fullmetal ago
Shit, that's not just IBM. That's American corporate culture.
I went though the same thing last year and the dumb fucking team of pajeets they hired to replace me couldn't do the job. I shit you not, they rehired me.
aCuriousYahnz ago
I hope your salary requirement went up for the rehire.
samy90a44 ago
Good for you. Hope they gave you back your previous position salary and benefits. Sadly most places would rather cove up this thing when they hire "curry-stinks" and find out they don't know jack-squat.
Fullmetal ago
Fuck yes they did, and a $5k/yr raise.
Low_Paid_Porno_Noob ago
Never teach your replacement enough.
wgtt911 ago
most are not competent enough to learn and understand it anyway... had to train my replacement 3 times...
Fullmetal ago
I taught those fuckers every damned thing I had learned on the job, and they still fucked it up. I even wrote 100+ page guides for them explaining how to do my job!
475677 ago
Openly buy the best performer of the month a prostitute. It'll cost under $100 and motivate the fuck out of them.
GapingAnus ago
Literally, in fact.
derram ago
https://archive.ph/GxyDC :
'In March 2018, ProPublica and Mother Jones reported that IBM for years has been implementing a layoff strategy that targeted older workers. ', "Yet confidential IBM documents submitted to the court in mid-December by Langley's legal team suggest the opposite."
'"IBM makes its employment decisions based on skills and business conditions – not age,” said IBM spokesperson Ed Barbini, in a statement. '
'IBM is still refusing to turn over documents in a bombshell age-discrimination lawsuit that attorneys representing plaintiff Jonathan Langley believe will show Big Blue has deliberately and systematically shed older workers. '
'Since those claims came to light, IBM has been sued in New York, Texas, and California over age discrimination allegations. '
This has been an automated message.
HenryCabotLodge ago
and really fat people, too.
speedisavirus ago
Older workers tend to get paid more. They are cutting costs. And one thing I've seen too often in technology is that older people, many of them, don't stay current. IBM is struggling to stay relevant. They need knowledgeable up to date employees.
ViperCarbz ago
They tend to stifle innovation and new ideas. The "well, that's how we've always done it" bullshit really holds back projects and new IP development.
GimmeTheUsual ago
You do realize that COBOL never went away right? or FORTRAN? Or old fucking mainframes?
Its just an illusion that everything is new and shiny. A lot of sectors, like banking, still relies on some old-as-shit stuff that you'd probably turn your nose up at learning.
That guy? He's smart as fuck, because when they can him, he can sock them with a discrimination lawsuit, and if they need the help desperately enough for some old shit, he can get a consultant fee too.
speedisavirus ago
I've written fortran, you? You realize anyone running a COBOL based mainframe system is trying to move in another direction because it's ancient and unmaintainable, right? There is an entire industry of tools to convert COBOL into more modern languages. That's why you will almost never meet anyone that actually knows COBOL unless they are approaching retirement age.
A lot of sectors, especially banking, are doing everything they can to get away from it because modern banks are technology focused. They can not compete without modern systems.
That guy is dumb as fuck. He was laid off, given plenty of change, and just because he says he was great and had ok reviews doesn't mean he wasn't an intolerable dickhead that no one liked that put him near the top of the list to get rid of.
Gamio ago
Yes they do need knowledgeable and up to date employees and its not really a problem to get rid of some old codger that only writes / uses older tools when when newer standards and tools can do the job in a more reliable, efficient, or productive way. They don't automatically get those by hiring young people with no knowledge, experience, or ability to do what the older employer used to do.
IBM killed off their server business by staff layoffs, they killed off most of their materials and computer science research divisions at the same time, they killed off their desktop business, killed their laptop and workstation brands until Lenovo got it all for a steal. There is a point where cutting costs doesn't actually improve the health of the business it just limits themselves because they just fired a bunch of knowledgeable up to date employees so some rich greedy prick can live off the profits as the entire business declines. You can only trim the fat so often before you just start cutting into the muscle and bones of the company.
speedisavirus ago
Because that's not what they do if they are not retarded. They hire an experienced developer in the technical direction they want to go with experience in a tangential industry. You can find older people like that but they are rare. They are either incompetents that never bothered to maintain current skills or they moved off into management by time they are that old. You end up with someone probably between 40-45 years old with 20+ years experience often working with exactly what you want to move towards.
IBM hasn't done much right in recent history but it doesn't mean this in particular is a bad move.
Standfast999 ago
IME - most computer training is bloated and sucks. Anyone with a foundation of computer science training can learn anything with oreilly books. Reducing costs with cheap labor rarely saves and does not position the company for innovating new products. The problem was not defined properly - reducing the middle line is easier than increasing the top line with profitable growth. A lazy man's strategy is not sustainable and killed the innovation engine which created the firm in the first place. Easier to destroy value rather than creating it. In this case, it maximized shareholder value while silently killing the marketplace. And here we are.
nospyingpls ago
I bet that guy who knows perl will get a higher paying job if you fire him.
I like the "once we have time to..." You know you'll never have time and that guy will keep writing and supporting ancient code forever.
I'm not that guy but I was somewhat recently offered a very high paying job if I would learn perl and rewrite 20+ years of professional developers perl code for a major federal contractor. Could probably retire there 90 years old still working on that project.
newoldwave ago
this is the answer
RedditSuxBalls ago
Why the fuck are you on the internet at work!? Get back cunt.