In this post I fact check the claims made by Snopes in the number one search result for "pizzagate":
http://www.snopes.com/pizzagate-conspiracy/
(All quotes from the Snopes article are boxed and my interpretations written below each box.)
A detailed conspiracy theory known as "Pizzagate" holds that a pedophile ring is operating out of a Clinton-linked pizzeria called Comet Ping Pong.
This claim, shared as an overview under the Snopes topic, narrows the topic to handle one particular case under pizzagate. Snopes shows no efforts to expand their point of view in this article of in any article on later date by now, even that it was clear the pizzagate is not limited to pizzerias already back then when Snopes published their review.
The narrow point of view Snopes selected is mostly related to James Alefantis, the guy who's public shares revealed by the online community, and connections revealed in the Podesta emails, and his top 50 rank in influence revealed by Forbes, and his running of pizza parlour Comet Ping Pong, got the online community to investigate his part in the high profile persons relationship to child trafficking and sexual abuse of minors.
"Pizza" was indeed included into the term via having pizzeria Comet Ping Pong along in the online community investigations, but the investigations have actually been taking place for several decades (see for example "Pizza Connection", "Franklin Cover-up"). Snopes' first serious mistake was to not present what pizzagate is really about. That could have been expected from any fact checking organization, especially when using a source also representing a wider scale but clearly dismissed. Hence their claims are based on too narrow point of view from the beginning.
But even their claims in their selected point of view can easily be debunked:
The 'Podesta e-mails' revealed the existence of a secret society of pedophiles operating through a pizza place loosely connected to Clinton associate David Brock. See Example(s) [EXAMPLES Collected via e-mail, November 2016]
Snopes claims this claim was made by the online community user DumbScribblyUnctious in Reddit, without linking or quoting the submission itself. The submission has been removed for unknown reason, but here's the archive of their source of origin*.
Checking the archived version, I found NO SUCH CLAIM in the Reddit submission in question. There's no mention of "secret society of pedophiles", there's no mention that "Podesta e-mails' revealed" that. Additionally, having a single user submission selected by Snopes as the full summary of the issue is totally unprofessional for any fact checking.
None of this elaborate conspiracy theory was true, as the New York Times noted
This is an unclear claim. Does Snopes claim that nothing in their source of origin is true (which would be a false claim as there are well sources claims included, much more likely to be true), or do they refer to their own interpretation not being true (which would actually be correct)? Additionally, using an article of a biased news agency (NYT) as their source without handling the accuracy or reliability of that article is, again, very unprofessional considering fact checking.
None of it was true. While [Comet Ping Pong pizzeria owner James] Alefantis has some prominent Democratic friends in Washington and was a supporter of Mrs. Clinton, he has never met her, does not sell or abuse children, and is not being investigated by law enforcement for any of these claims. He and his 40 employees had unwittingly become real people caught in the middle of a storm of fake news.
None of what was true? The original Reddit post in question does not claim that Mrs. Clinton and Alefantis had met, nor does it claim Alefantis selling or abusing children, neither does it claim he would be investigated by the law enforcement.
The claim on 40 employees having unwittingly becoming caught in the middle of a storm of fake news is an unsourced claim. There should be a source mentioning all those 40 people and their opinions, and a source showing the amount of news, each separately fact checked for being fake, to make this claim by Snopes any accurate. Third note for them on their professionality.
“From this insane, fabricated conspiracy theory, we’ve come under constant assault,” said Mr. Alefantis, 42, who was once in a relationship with David Brock, a provocative former right-wing journalist who became an outspoken advocate for Mrs. Clinton.
Claim the theory is insane and fabricated is not further sourced, hence it should not be part of a fact checking article. It's seemingly an opinion of Mr. Alefantis quoted by Snopes. Claim that Alefantis was once in a relationship with Brock is not sourced either, making that an opinion of Snopes. Claim that Mr. Brock was a provocative right-wing journalist is not sourced either. Claim that he became an outspoken advocate for Mrs. Clinton follows the same line. WHAT KIND OF FACT CHECKING IS THIS, dear Snopes?
Although the original “Pizzagate” post was deleted at some point between 4 and 21 November 2016, archived versions of it contained what appeared to be the original post in its entirety. (A subreddit dedicated to the controversy, r/pizzagate, was created in the interim.)
"At some point between 4 and 21 November 2016" is inaccurate. My check on archive limits the gap between 14 and 17 November, which was very easy to do, so let's give Snopes another note on professionality. /r/pizzagate was first archived on November 11th, sharing odd light to this whole Snopes claim that it was created "in the interim". Actually, it was put up before the pizzagate post in question was deleted. I have no idea why Snopes found this worth mentioning in the first place, but this inaccuracy gives another valuable point to debunk the Snopes article. Do we even need to go on any more ...
A brief and incomplete summary of the theory espoused in the original post goes as follows:
Comet Pizza is a pizza place owned by James Alefantis, who is the former gay boyfriend of David Brock, the CEO of Correct The Record. It has been the venue for dozens of events for the Hillary campaign staff. John Podesta has had campaign fundraisers there for both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. John’s brother and business partner Tony Podesta has his birthday party there every year. [https://i.sli.mg/1MqPHA.png]
It’s also a dive that according to reviews and photos has hidden bathroom doors and creepy murals. The bathrooms in particular have murals exclusively of nude women, as well as a great deal of graffiti relating to sex. Reviews of the restaurant are bizarrely polarized. Websites describing it positively note that there are regularly “unsupervised children running around”. Their menu include a pedophilic symbol, as do the signs and decorations of other neighboring businesses.
The music acts and the posters promoting same acts are bizarre in their presentation, content, and lyrical focus, but are still promoted as being “for all ages”. The overtly sexual content would suggest otherwise.
The same has taken place in reference to videos recorded inside Comet Ping Pong by people that frequent their establishment as well as video referencing Comet Ping Pong positively from the exterior.
While initially not the central focus of the investigation at the onset, Comet Ping Pong is a much more overt and much more disturbing hub of coincidences. Everyone associated with the business is making semi-overt, semi-tongue-in-cheek, and semi-sarcastic inferences towards sex with minors. The artists that work for and with the business also generate nothing but cultish imagery of disembodiment, blood, beheadings, sex, and of course pizza.
First, this IS NOT A BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE ORIGINAL POST IN QUESTION, but instead another unsourced pick by Snopes maybe from somewhere in /r/pizzagate by another online user. Not telling where this second summary is from, or if it's Snopes own summary, makes it pretty damn difficult to fact check. This includes confirmed facts, already starting with one claiming Alefantis to be the owner of Comet Ping Pong - which as itself makes Snopes to debunk themselves.
Earlier they stated "None of it was true", now they represent a brief summary of it clearly having truth in it. Debunking Snopes doesn't seem too difficult at all if they do it by themselves in the very same article this obviously.
The main issues found by reading this far were:
- Several signals of unprofessionality in the fact checking
- Picking a single user submission to represent the whole pizzagate
- Including controversials (first claiming "none was true", later representing parts most likely to be true)
- Bad use of sources (picking single online username not even checked for reliability)
- Bad use of sources (using biased media and a person in question, Alefantis)
- Bad use of sources (not linking directly to some sources in use)
- Lack of separating Snopes' own opinions from sourced information
- Inaccuracy
The article goes on, but I found the above to be sufficient to claim that
RweSure ago
I don't think you've achieved your aim.
Snopes may have trouble saying what pizzagate is, but that is because the pizzagate theory has no coherence whatsoever. You already have to have bought into several parts of it for it to make sense. Here's an example. A voater just tried to explain it on UrbanBaby
I, mean, it's just all over the map and this is someone who believes in the theory. You yourself spend two paragraphs on it and it's still not clear. You think they are too narrow, but you then try this
Several Decades? Good grief. Do you see why people don't believe this?
Those other crimes are completely separate people and completely separate evernts that have nothing to do with what Snopes is talking about. The Pizza Connection was the Italian mob selling heroin for goodness sakes. I can tell you a coherent view of the Pizza Connection in one sentence.
If Pizzagate indeed was going on for decades, Snopes would not have to struggle to define it. They would just refer to it.
This is a fairly accurate summary of the "3 minute summary" youtube video in the the Reddit post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9itWsqzFMVo
They are no longer just describing that single Reddit post, but the entire Pizzagate theory/discussion which would have developed in three weeks since that original post. The video does make the claim that Hillary has held fundraisers at Comet. (this is false as you should know.) If you click on the examples section in Snopes, it shows what they are responding to and links to the post you say they don't link to.
Alefantis was in a relationship with Brock. This is known. Not an opinion. David Brock was a right wing journalist and he did then switch and become an advocate for Hillary Clinton. This is widely known. David Brock was instrumental in the events that got Bill Clinton impeached. He then changed his politics and ran a pro Hillary Clinton political action committee this year. You want a source? Read David Brock's book https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51J6TG8P1PL.jpg
anonOpenPress ago
You obviously have no idea what kind of a process a journalistic fact checking is, so please update yourself before coming up with posts like this. Still, you managed to catch me on two lines, which I'll update immediately:
ps. The Pizza Connection got its name for pizzerias used as money laundering fronts, among other rackets. You didn't pick the similarity regarding naming a scandal, neither the possibilty that being still the case also in pizzagate. Citizen journalism on child trafficking and abuse by officials have been going on since at least WW2, popping up as scandals with varying names every now and then. The reaction by the officials has mainly been trying to limit the scandal to a local level, like for example in the Franklin Cover-up (efforts to limit to Boys Town), and in pizzagate (efforts to limit to Washington D.C.)
ps2. I'm very interested on your goal of your post in general. You didn't write it to help the kids, did you?
RweSure ago
Actually my once wife worked as a fact checker. So, yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the process.
Two lines? Fact check needed. What about Brock's change in politics?
No. They shared a fact that is widely known, especially on VOAT. The fact that they shared is not germane to what they were debunking. Alefantis and Brock bought a house together at one point. Instead of updating with claim, you should take 30 seconds and find out this is very well known.
Do you think that when politifact checks something President Trump says, they have prove their claim that he is, in fact, the President? Or that he was married to Ivana Trump? No. These are known facts.
The term you wanted instead of inaccurate is imprecise. It's still 100% accurate, so you shouldn't update, you should correct. If you were familiar with how journalistic fact checking works, by using those dates, they were telling you when they first looked at that page and when they first noticed it was deleted. They do not need more precision to be telling the truth.
This sentence doesn't make sense. The Pizza Connection heroin case has nothing to do with Pizzagate, they are completely unconnected, it's silly to argue otherwise. If I steal a car today, that doesn't connect me to someone who stole a car 30 years ago.
Truth, Justice and the American way.
This board is not about helping children, in some cases, folks are targeting children and their families. And folks won't direct their energy to something that would do that, because they would rather believe in massive conspiracies.
anonOpenPress ago
If you know something about a fact checking process, you should already know that Snopes failed - and my goal was reached by showing that. Putting extra effort in sourcing their unsourced claims would only have made my already lengthy post longer, without further achievements (more likely just more confusing).
Ok Pizza Connection wasn't a good example regarding child sex, I picked it for showing there's been similarity in naming a scandal. I could have picked the Rotherham CSE Scandal, Penn State sex scandal, Britain's Soccer Sex Abuse Scandal or Catholic Church child abuse scandal. But the purpose, namely showing that the Snopes picked a too narrow perspective, was reached. Pizzagate is more than single, local, short time scandal.
You want to keep arguing on terminology used re dates. Imprecise would be even better, yeah, but I did make my point already.
For the end, truth and facts doesn't always walk hand in hand. I too wish they did. And I do wish we can end this discussion, as it's already circling around words, dismissing the bigger truth ;)
LostandFound ago
Nice post! Do the wikipedia article next, theres even circular references in their sourcing. Not sure if the point above is in reference to the time that r/pizzagate was deleted. I posted on its demise at 5pm ET on the 22nd of November so perhaps a max of 2-3 hours before is my best guess I was on it every chance I got.
anonOpenPress ago
I've never taken Wikipedia as a reliable source of anything (and they themselves make it clear Wikipedia shouldn't be used as one either). I do hate how inaccurate they are on describing pizzagate, but what they have there is only working against themselves in a long run.
The point wasn't about when Reddit ppizzagate sub was deleted, but when the source used by Snopes was deleted. That was submitted on a different sub "The_Donald"