You are aware that the disgusting practice referenced in your video is practiced by a teeny, tiny sect of Judaism located in Brooklyn? That's about it. It is not a mainstream practice whatsoever.
I've been to several bris' (that's what happens when you have Jew friends) and none of the mohel (sp) do anything remotely creepy like that.
You are aware that the disgusting practice referenced in your video is practiced by a teeny, tiny sect of Judaism located in Brooklyn? That's about it. It is not a mainstream practice whatsoever.
Thousands of children are subjected to oral rape during their "bris", each year. If only a single person were subjected to this sexual abuse, it would be worthwhile to give voice to the victim. Is it fair to dehumanize these human beings into a mere statistic?
I've been to several bris' (that's what happens when you have Jew friends) and none of the mohel (sp) do anything remotely creepy like that.
You find nothing remotely creepy about stripping a baby naked, ripping apart this skin from his penis, and penetrating his genitals with a knife? You find nothing creepy about a room of adults celebrating while a baby is screaming in pain from having his sexual boundaries violated?
There would be bloodshed if I went to a "bris", but not the blood of a sexually abused child. Attending a party to celebrate the gang blade rape of a baby isn't something that I would brag about if I were you.
I had to do a little research to formulate an informed response. The practice is observed by a very small sect of Lithuanian Hasidic Jews. As best as I can tell, the practice is virtually extinct at this point, and all but a very small sect still practice this ritual going back to 200CE and is attributed to the Greeks in it's origination.
I'm not providing ANY excuse for it. Use of the mouth as a method of staunching blood is gross beyond gross. And a health risk. It has almost been banned at this point.
So I have to assume that you are part of the non-circumcised crowd. That was your parents choice. It isn't our problem if you got laughed at in the locker room for having an anteater. I'll make the assumption you're American. In which case 70-90% of males in America are circumcised.
Let me ask you this - remove the oral component as that is RARE upon RARE - how do you think circumcision is done in the hospital? Same exact way a mohel does it. No difference. Except a mohel may perform 30 per week. A pediatrician maybe 1 or 2. I actually called a Jewish friend on this and found out - wait for it - even non-Jewish doctors call on the local mohel's to perform a non-ritual circumcision at the parents house because they are far more experienced than the doctors are.
Personally, I find all religious ceremonies creepy. It doesn't matter what the celebration or ceremony is. But that is just me.
So I can get how some arcane practice might get your dander up, each to his own (less dick sucking).
I am curious - what are your thoughts on bacha bazi? Is that OK in your book? I've actually seen that in Afghanistan. Very widespread.
I had to do a little research to formulate an informed response.
What are your sources?
The practice is observed by a very small sect of Lithuanian Hasidic Jews.
American children are still being raped by this practice in the current year.
[New York City] health officials estimate more than 3,000 babies are circumcised each year using the oral suction method — formally called metzitzah b’peh in Hebrew.
Being born on US soil means you are an American citizen protected by secular law... supposedly. Apparently the Rabbis believe that Jewish children don't deserve the same legal protection other Americans have.
As best as I can tell, the practice is virtually extinct at this point
Tell that to the victims. These are not "virtual" rapes. They are real cases of criminal sexual abuse of children practiced openly in America.
this ritual going back to 200CE and is attributed to the Greeks in it's origination.
That is outright disinformation. The metzitzah b'peh ritual was established by Jewish Rabbis. I linked to the Mishnah and Talmud in the OP which describe the practice. The Greeks were famously opposed to circumcision as they prized the foreskin. They considered a long foreskin to be the ideal of beauty.
I'm not providing ANY excuse for it.
No, you're just minimizing by saying there are only a small number of cases. This dehumanizes the victims to a mere statistic.
Use of the mouth as a method of staunching blood is gross beyond gross. And a health risk. It has almost been banned at this point.
The fact is that it has not been banned. Not even close. Parents are often not aware that the mohel will suck the child's penis. So, in 2012, the New York City Board of Health passed a modest reform requiring parents to sign a consent form. By 2015, the rule was repealed under pressure from the Jewish community. Thousands are American children are still violated every year.
I am not sure why you are fighting me when I am clear that this is a disgusting and dangerous practice which should be outlawed. Period. No gray area. I'm not minimizing anything,
If you really want to get technical, circumcision goes back to the ancient Egyptians. You may want to read a little more on the subject and not be so myopic.
I completely agree - a few thousand infants subjected to this gross ritual is a few thousand too many. A baby has no say. That being said, I do know one adult who wasn't circumsized and had so many health issues he got snipped at 27 yo - extremely painful. That's why circumcision is done as an infant.
Now that I have answered all of your question - how about your thoughts on bacha bazi as a ritual?
You recognize the harm to a baby boy from raped with a mouth. We agree on this. I also recognize the harm of being raped with a knife. Do you? If I had to chose one or the other, I would go for the one that causes less physical damage to my body.
I completely agree - a few thousand infants subjected to this gross ritual is a few thousand too many. A baby has no say.
It's even worse than that. The baby communicates with screams and kicks and tries his very best to escape the attack, but his attackers choose to ignore his say.
I do know one adult who wasn't circumsized and had so many health issues he got snipped at 27 yo - extremely painful.
You know a man who consented to circumcision as an adult, and it was extremely painful for him. It is also extremely painful for a man to be circumcised as a baby. Babies must be conscious during the procedure because general anesthesia is too dangerous for them. Not to mention the pain of having a bloody open wound on your genitals that is burned by acidic urine. Not very sanitary environment either inside a diaper with feces.
What disease was your friend diagnosed with? One man out of how many men who live without any problem of their penis their whole life? How unlucky for him to have a rare condition that couldn't be treated any other way but amputation. How do you compare an adult with a medical condition to subjecting all infant boys to unnecessary surgery when they have perfectly normal, healthy genitals without any diagnosis of disease?
That's why circumcision is done as an infant.
The reason why infants are circumcised is that they can't fight back. An adult man can defend himself and will not let you circumcise him without his consent, but it's very easy to force circumcision on a child.
Now that I have answered all of your question - how about your thoughts on bacha bazi as a ritual?
I'm not familiar with it. I think I've vaguely heard something of socially accepted gang sexual abuse of young boys in Afghanistan. Is that what bacha bazi is?
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LukeArtanis ago
Also, on the opposite end of the spectrum. Some Jews are adopting a modern bris ceremony without circumcision.
Blacksmith21 ago
You are aware that the disgusting practice referenced in your video is practiced by a teeny, tiny sect of Judaism located in Brooklyn? That's about it. It is not a mainstream practice whatsoever.
I've been to several bris' (that's what happens when you have Jew friends) and none of the mohel (sp) do anything remotely creepy like that.
You've been to a bris, right @lukeartanis?
LukeArtanis ago
Thousands of children are subjected to oral rape during their "bris", each year. If only a single person were subjected to this sexual abuse, it would be worthwhile to give voice to the victim. Is it fair to dehumanize these human beings into a mere statistic?
You find nothing remotely creepy about stripping a baby naked, ripping apart this skin from his penis, and penetrating his genitals with a knife? You find nothing creepy about a room of adults celebrating while a baby is screaming in pain from having his sexual boundaries violated?
There would be bloodshed if I went to a "bris", but not the blood of a sexually abused child. Attending a party to celebrate the gang blade rape of a baby isn't something that I would brag about if I were you.
Blacksmith21 ago
I had to do a little research to formulate an informed response. The practice is observed by a very small sect of Lithuanian Hasidic Jews. As best as I can tell, the practice is virtually extinct at this point, and all but a very small sect still practice this ritual going back to 200CE and is attributed to the Greeks in it's origination.
I'm not providing ANY excuse for it. Use of the mouth as a method of staunching blood is gross beyond gross. And a health risk. It has almost been banned at this point.
So I have to assume that you are part of the non-circumcised crowd. That was your parents choice. It isn't our problem if you got laughed at in the locker room for having an anteater. I'll make the assumption you're American. In which case 70-90% of males in America are circumcised.
Let me ask you this - remove the oral component as that is RARE upon RARE - how do you think circumcision is done in the hospital? Same exact way a mohel does it. No difference. Except a mohel may perform 30 per week. A pediatrician maybe 1 or 2. I actually called a Jewish friend on this and found out - wait for it - even non-Jewish doctors call on the local mohel's to perform a non-ritual circumcision at the parents house because they are far more experienced than the doctors are.
Personally, I find all religious ceremonies creepy. It doesn't matter what the celebration or ceremony is. But that is just me.
So I can get how some arcane practice might get your dander up, each to his own (less dick sucking).
I am curious - what are your thoughts on bacha bazi? Is that OK in your book? I've actually seen that in Afghanistan. Very widespread.
LukeArtanis ago
What are your sources?
American children are still being raped by this practice in the current year.
Being born on US soil means you are an American citizen protected by secular law... supposedly. Apparently the Rabbis believe that Jewish children don't deserve the same legal protection other Americans have.
Tell that to the victims. These are not "virtual" rapes. They are real cases of criminal sexual abuse of children practiced openly in America.
That is outright disinformation. The metzitzah b'peh ritual was established by Jewish Rabbis. I linked to the Mishnah and Talmud in the OP which describe the practice. The Greeks were famously opposed to circumcision as they prized the foreskin. They considered a long foreskin to be the ideal of beauty.
No, you're just minimizing by saying there are only a small number of cases. This dehumanizes the victims to a mere statistic.
The fact is that it has not been banned. Not even close. Parents are often not aware that the mohel will suck the child's penis. So, in 2012, the New York City Board of Health passed a modest reform requiring parents to sign a consent form. By 2015, the rule was repealed under pressure from the Jewish community. Thousands are American children are still violated every year.
Blacksmith21 ago
I am not sure why you are fighting me when I am clear that this is a disgusting and dangerous practice which should be outlawed. Period. No gray area. I'm not minimizing anything,
If you really want to get technical, circumcision goes back to the ancient Egyptians. You may want to read a little more on the subject and not be so myopic.
I completely agree - a few thousand infants subjected to this gross ritual is a few thousand too many. A baby has no say. That being said, I do know one adult who wasn't circumsized and had so many health issues he got snipped at 27 yo - extremely painful. That's why circumcision is done as an infant.
Now that I have answered all of your question - how about your thoughts on bacha bazi as a ritual?
LukeArtanis ago
You recognize the harm to a baby boy from raped with a mouth. We agree on this. I also recognize the harm of being raped with a knife. Do you? If I had to chose one or the other, I would go for the one that causes less physical damage to my body.
It's even worse than that. The baby communicates with screams and kicks and tries his very best to escape the attack, but his attackers choose to ignore his say.
You know a man who consented to circumcision as an adult, and it was extremely painful for him. It is also extremely painful for a man to be circumcised as a baby. Babies must be conscious during the procedure because general anesthesia is too dangerous for them. Not to mention the pain of having a bloody open wound on your genitals that is burned by acidic urine. Not very sanitary environment either inside a diaper with feces.
What disease was your friend diagnosed with? One man out of how many men who live without any problem of their penis their whole life? How unlucky for him to have a rare condition that couldn't be treated any other way but amputation. How do you compare an adult with a medical condition to subjecting all infant boys to unnecessary surgery when they have perfectly normal, healthy genitals without any diagnosis of disease?
The reason why infants are circumcised is that they can't fight back. An adult man can defend himself and will not let you circumcise him without his consent, but it's very easy to force circumcision on a child.
I'm not familiar with it. I think I've vaguely heard something of socially accepted gang sexual abuse of young boys in Afghanistan. Is that what bacha bazi is?