Joan Mork told the Review-Journal that her son said he was concerned that members of the Church Scientology were following him into restaurants and eavesdropping.
As an ex-Scientologist, I sure fucking hope so. Scientologists are ruthless and smart, and extremely moral generally (despite their specific crazinesses). Scientology analysis techniques are actually highly effective at drawing solid conclusions from limited data. If Scientology is going after the pedos, they would be a very effective ally.
Except they aren't moral... Sea Org?, the (basically) prisons they run? And their planned infiltration of the US Govt? The Scientology higher ups are probably a significant part of the pedo cabal.
They're crazy in their own way, believe me I know better than anyone here most likely, but they're deeply devoted to their moral code. Even though that moral code has some obvious flaws, there's no room in it for child rape or satanic ritual abuse.
As for their planned infiltration of the US Gov, if they were fighting an international cult of pedo satanists secretly in charge of most of the world, wouldn't that be a pretty incredibly brave thing to do? Wouldn't they be right to attempt to infiltrate and disrupt it?
Scientology has none of the same symbolism, none of the behavioral markers, none of the fawning over by the media that pedo-cult related occultism has. I mean really, if they were part of the cult, wouldn't they be allies with the government? If they were part of the cult, wouldn't the compromised governments generally let them get away with everything? Why do all these governments we know to be compromised treat Scientology as a mortal enemy? Doesn't pass the smell test, man.
In the US, yeah. In many countries they've fought simply to be allowed to operate at all.
Yes, they are a cult. But, so is Christianity, so is Judaism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Episcopalianism, Mormonism, Jehova's Witnessism, Hinduism, Islamism, Shinto, Buddhism, et cetera et cetera et cetera. Declaring it a cult is not a good enough argument to get them to stop their bad practices, nor does it negate the ways in which they are/do good.
I've witnessed it in person at two scientology centers . Cult . I should add I've been in many churches, including Mormon, synagogues, a few Buddhist temples, etc. I'd say the next one with the most cult qualities is JW. I would believe there is some good they do,as many churches, etc, do . I think scientology as an organization...or should I sayCompany, is evil, but not all individual members. Surely not most . Many are victims
I grew up as a Scientologist and worked in the church for a few years. Didn't join the Sea-Org, but have friends and family who did, some left some are still in. My family was way deep, going back 40 years, and my mother was on first name basis with many of the international execs until Miscavige started throwing everyone and their dog into the RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force, the Scientology "jail"). I likely have a much broader understanding of the religion than you do.
Scientology as a religion is actually mostly good, until you reach the higher "OT" levels. Certainly, auditing is not "clearing" anything, and "Clear" is not a real psychological or spiritual state. However, auditing, with the aid of an E-meter, is basically augmented psychological therapy, and reliably produces very good results in people who go into it earnestly. All the fluff and pomp about it is good only as an aid to the placebo effect, making it more likely you'll pursue self-improvement earnestly and without skepticism getting in the way, but that's not much of a criticism since it works. LRH very deliberately structured the culture of Scientology to use social pressure to drive people to self-improvement, and although it can seem crazy, it works. I swear, crossfit stole their peer-pressure to self-improvement culture from Scientology. Anyway, below the OT levels, Scientology is pretty much applied philosophy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and "auditing" to force yourself to confront how you're screwing up your own life. These are highly psychologically beneficial, far more than any other religion. Most Scientologists never reached the OT levels.
It's not right to call it a company, there is no one in Scientology getting rich. Sea-Org members live like monks, their self-worth being their devotion to helping mankind survive (only achievable through the application of Scientology). Miscavige is, as far as I can tell, the evil heart of the organization. Perhaps LRH was evil as well, but he ran the church far more competently than Miscavige. For instance, LRH was fanatical about statistics. If you were productive, he would overlook almost anything you did wrong. Miscavige tears down his most productive subordinates if he even suspects them of going one step outside of his doctrine. Anyway, over the past 30 years, Miscavige shifted the culture in Scientology from one of hopeful optimism, where exceptional people rose to leadership and were supported, to one of pessimistic fanaticism where everyone is pounded until they submit or leave. I think the real turning point of doom was when the IAS (International Association of Scientologists) was launched. It is a Scientology principle that you are supposed to "exchange in abundance," meaning give more than your receive, or more than expected, as a moral behavior. The IAS did not deliver services (courses or auditing) in exchange for donations, it just put you on a list of donors by amount donated (though, how much needed to be donated to reach higher positions on the list was not divulged). So, instead of trying to use the healing power of Scientology philosophy and services on their own merits as the vehicle to expansion, the coffers of Scientologists was begged of for nothing in return except social prestige. This was a major violation of Scientology as LRH had laid it out, and it was constant pressure to give to the IAS that started to really destroy Scientologist's financial health. In tandem with this, Miscavige started to change the texts that LRH had written, claiming that the true originals had been found, and that subversive changes made by others than LRH were finally being found out and fixed. Along with this, Miscavige began purging the upper ranks of the religion.
It's a mistake to treat Scientologists as hapless victims of a cult (although certainly there are many who are). The vast majority of Scientologists worldwide are inactive, having drifted from the religion in mass-exodus through the mid 90's to the mid 2000's. Most saw the changes and self-contradictions becoming endemic, and left as it became too much. Most did not lose their fortunes giving to the IAS or buying more services than they could afford. Most did not lose touch with friends or have their family torn apart by the religion. The reality is that most Scientologists rightly applied the very reasonable and good foundations of Scientology, and when the organization itself began to run afoul of it's own foundations, Scientologists applied basic Scientology and separated from the suppressive force.
thanks for sharing. and yes, I'm sure you have a much deeper knowledge and understanding of scientology. as for the e-meter being "augmented psychological therapy" and producing reliable results... I have to say I don't agree with that. at all. although I'm open to hearing your perspective. and from my limited experiences at scientology centers, which I think is also a very important perspective, I found the message and approach to be extremely creepy and cultish and saccharine. I took a lot of the materials with me and felt that way about those as well. as for no one getting rich... it seems the people at the top are definitely getting rich and really exploiting people to get money.
The e-meter is a pretty simple device. It's essentially a lie detector, with the instrumentation presenting the fluctuating electrical resistance of the body a bit differently. I've audited people for maybe 200 hours, give or take, and I can tell you that as you get experienced with it, it becomes very easy to see peoples emotional response on the meter. The movements for happiness, sadness, anger, relief, and general okay-ness and upset-ness are fairly distinct. Now, in the dogma of Scientology, the e-meter is treated as somewhat infallible, that you can't fool it- I happen to know from experience that is nonsense, as I could easily put a happy/content needle "float" up no matter what I was actually feeling. But, doing so ruined your auditing results, thus my statement that earnestly pursuing self-improvement worked, because lying and deceiving resulted in failure of the process. So, while holding the e-meter, you are asked self-exploratory questions by the auditor. The questions are sort of a 20-questions sort of algorithm that helps narrow down the problem you're having, and when asking the questions the auditor observes the reaction of the person and their meter readings to see if that line of questioning produces a negative emotional response. Wherever a negative emotional response is found, you move forward along that line, asking deeper and deeper questions until the person has an epiphany which resolves the problem. I've experienced these epiphanies many times, and they are often quite profound. Everything about Scientology might be a sham, all the explanations for why any of it works might be totally wrong, but earnestly done auditing does very quickly help you resolve psychological stress, and help you to change your own thinking and mind for the better. It is a real shame that the psychological field of science is not using e-meters (or something like them) and algorithmic therapy questioning to help people. It is deeply unfortunate that what's bad about Scientology makes everything that's good about it taboo.
I don't know what the pamphlets look like today, I haven't been in a church in over a decade. But, it was certainly always a bit over the top, though that's intentional, as I said. In Scientology doing things half-ass is considered really low-responsibility, so there's a lot of intensity to everything they do. That can certainly come across cultish, even if it weren't.
Well, it may seem that way to you, but it's not the truth. First of all, there are no people at the top, only Miscavige. LRH believed in near dictatorial leadership as the most effective method of organization. The positions close to Miscavige have had a pretty high turnover across the past 20 years. As I said my mother knew many of them (she was fairly high up in the church in the 80s), and I still have family that's in the Sea-Org (one of them is very high up, haven't spoken to that person in 15 years, but still get updates through the grape-vine). The lowest and highest rank Sea-Org members live nearly identical lives outside of their rank. They live in the same dorms, they eat at the same cafeteria, they get the same paycheck for personal use, they work the same number of hours, get the same number of days off. This applies to new young adults who joined a year ago and to old executives who've been in for 30 years. Honestly, to think the Sea-Org or its members are money-motivated is to severely underestimate them.
I appreciate your perspective. honestly, I'm extremely skeptical about the e-meter having scientific validity and would have to see research proving it. even lie detector tests are only 70% accurate, which throws their validity out the window. and no I never thought sea-org members were motivated by money, they strike me as victims being financially exploited.
Just because it can be wrong doesn't mean that it has no scientific value. In the case of the lie detector, that it can be wrong is a legal problem. The lie detector is attempting to determine something very specific, whether a person is being honest in any particular answer. The e-meter, used in auditing, is really only trying to determine if you have a negative emotional response in general, not the cause of that negative response. Seen from this angle, and knowing that the e-meter and lie detector are functionally pretty much identical, it makes sense that the lie detector can be wrong a lot. Asking a person if they killed their wife is bound to be upsetting to them, even if they didn't kill their wife. You can't be sending people to prison based on something that's so hit or miss. In the case of the e-meter, it's an aid to a psychological therapy that is not a legal battle, nor a conflict at all, where there are negative consequences for being wrong. If you're wrong in an auditing session, having been misled by a wrong or misread reading, you just hit a dead end in the questioning, the person being audited says "I don't think there's anything here," and you go back to the previous question. Happens considerably less than 30% of the time, but it does happen, and it's really no big deal. Just means you wasted a minute.
Believe me, man, Sea-Org members are not exploited. Financially or otherwise. Again, that's an underestimation. They're actually highly intelligent, capable, and driven people. And, as I said, there's no money being made by anyone. They use all their money to buy real estate, actually, as a method of ensuring indefinite stability. The problem with the organization is not that these people are sheep, trapped in a cult. The problem is that they're highly competent people fanatically engaged in a cause they feel is of greater importance than anything else. The people being financially exploited are the poor saps that take out second mortgages on their homes to give to the IAS.
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quantokitty ago
Hmmmmm .....
djaeveloplyse ago
As an ex-Scientologist, I sure fucking hope so. Scientologists are ruthless and smart, and extremely moral generally (despite their specific crazinesses). Scientology analysis techniques are actually highly effective at drawing solid conclusions from limited data. If Scientology is going after the pedos, they would be a very effective ally.
BlowjaySimpson ago
Except they aren't moral... Sea Org?, the (basically) prisons they run? And their planned infiltration of the US Govt? The Scientology higher ups are probably a significant part of the pedo cabal.
djaeveloplyse ago
They're crazy in their own way, believe me I know better than anyone here most likely, but they're deeply devoted to their moral code. Even though that moral code has some obvious flaws, there's no room in it for child rape or satanic ritual abuse.
As for their planned infiltration of the US Gov, if they were fighting an international cult of pedo satanists secretly in charge of most of the world, wouldn't that be a pretty incredibly brave thing to do? Wouldn't they be right to attempt to infiltrate and disrupt it?
Scientology has none of the same symbolism, none of the behavioral markers, none of the fawning over by the media that pedo-cult related occultism has. I mean really, if they were part of the cult, wouldn't they be allies with the government? If they were part of the cult, wouldn't the compromised governments generally let them get away with everything? Why do all these governments we know to be compromised treat Scientology as a mortal enemy? Doesn't pass the smell test, man.
3141592653 ago
Which governments are you referring to?
djaeveloplyse ago
Pretty much all of them. Scientology has had some serious legal battles for its right to operate.
3141592653 ago
I know they fought very hard to achieve non-profit status. They are a cult
djaeveloplyse ago
In the US, yeah. In many countries they've fought simply to be allowed to operate at all.
Yes, they are a cult. But, so is Christianity, so is Judaism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Episcopalianism, Mormonism, Jehova's Witnessism, Hinduism, Islamism, Shinto, Buddhism, et cetera et cetera et cetera. Declaring it a cult is not a good enough argument to get them to stop their bad practices, nor does it negate the ways in which they are/do good.
3141592653 ago
I've witnessed it in person at two scientology centers . Cult . I should add I've been in many churches, including Mormon, synagogues, a few Buddhist temples, etc. I'd say the next one with the most cult qualities is JW. I would believe there is some good they do,as many churches, etc, do . I think scientology as an organization...or should I sayCompany, is evil, but not all individual members. Surely not most . Many are victims
djaeveloplyse ago
I grew up as a Scientologist and worked in the church for a few years. Didn't join the Sea-Org, but have friends and family who did, some left some are still in. My family was way deep, going back 40 years, and my mother was on first name basis with many of the international execs until Miscavige started throwing everyone and their dog into the RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force, the Scientology "jail"). I likely have a much broader understanding of the religion than you do.
Scientology as a religion is actually mostly good, until you reach the higher "OT" levels. Certainly, auditing is not "clearing" anything, and "Clear" is not a real psychological or spiritual state. However, auditing, with the aid of an E-meter, is basically augmented psychological therapy, and reliably produces very good results in people who go into it earnestly. All the fluff and pomp about it is good only as an aid to the placebo effect, making it more likely you'll pursue self-improvement earnestly and without skepticism getting in the way, but that's not much of a criticism since it works. LRH very deliberately structured the culture of Scientology to use social pressure to drive people to self-improvement, and although it can seem crazy, it works. I swear, crossfit stole their peer-pressure to self-improvement culture from Scientology. Anyway, below the OT levels, Scientology is pretty much applied philosophy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and "auditing" to force yourself to confront how you're screwing up your own life. These are highly psychologically beneficial, far more than any other religion. Most Scientologists never reached the OT levels.
It's not right to call it a company, there is no one in Scientology getting rich. Sea-Org members live like monks, their self-worth being their devotion to helping mankind survive (only achievable through the application of Scientology). Miscavige is, as far as I can tell, the evil heart of the organization. Perhaps LRH was evil as well, but he ran the church far more competently than Miscavige. For instance, LRH was fanatical about statistics. If you were productive, he would overlook almost anything you did wrong. Miscavige tears down his most productive subordinates if he even suspects them of going one step outside of his doctrine. Anyway, over the past 30 years, Miscavige shifted the culture in Scientology from one of hopeful optimism, where exceptional people rose to leadership and were supported, to one of pessimistic fanaticism where everyone is pounded until they submit or leave. I think the real turning point of doom was when the IAS (International Association of Scientologists) was launched. It is a Scientology principle that you are supposed to "exchange in abundance," meaning give more than your receive, or more than expected, as a moral behavior. The IAS did not deliver services (courses or auditing) in exchange for donations, it just put you on a list of donors by amount donated (though, how much needed to be donated to reach higher positions on the list was not divulged). So, instead of trying to use the healing power of Scientology philosophy and services on their own merits as the vehicle to expansion, the coffers of Scientologists was begged of for nothing in return except social prestige. This was a major violation of Scientology as LRH had laid it out, and it was constant pressure to give to the IAS that started to really destroy Scientologist's financial health. In tandem with this, Miscavige started to change the texts that LRH had written, claiming that the true originals had been found, and that subversive changes made by others than LRH were finally being found out and fixed. Along with this, Miscavige began purging the upper ranks of the religion.
It's a mistake to treat Scientologists as hapless victims of a cult (although certainly there are many who are). The vast majority of Scientologists worldwide are inactive, having drifted from the religion in mass-exodus through the mid 90's to the mid 2000's. Most saw the changes and self-contradictions becoming endemic, and left as it became too much. Most did not lose their fortunes giving to the IAS or buying more services than they could afford. Most did not lose touch with friends or have their family torn apart by the religion. The reality is that most Scientologists rightly applied the very reasonable and good foundations of Scientology, and when the organization itself began to run afoul of it's own foundations, Scientologists applied basic Scientology and separated from the suppressive force.
3141592653 ago
thanks for sharing. and yes, I'm sure you have a much deeper knowledge and understanding of scientology. as for the e-meter being "augmented psychological therapy" and producing reliable results... I have to say I don't agree with that. at all. although I'm open to hearing your perspective. and from my limited experiences at scientology centers, which I think is also a very important perspective, I found the message and approach to be extremely creepy and cultish and saccharine. I took a lot of the materials with me and felt that way about those as well. as for no one getting rich... it seems the people at the top are definitely getting rich and really exploiting people to get money.
djaeveloplyse ago
The e-meter is a pretty simple device. It's essentially a lie detector, with the instrumentation presenting the fluctuating electrical resistance of the body a bit differently. I've audited people for maybe 200 hours, give or take, and I can tell you that as you get experienced with it, it becomes very easy to see peoples emotional response on the meter. The movements for happiness, sadness, anger, relief, and general okay-ness and upset-ness are fairly distinct. Now, in the dogma of Scientology, the e-meter is treated as somewhat infallible, that you can't fool it- I happen to know from experience that is nonsense, as I could easily put a happy/content needle "float" up no matter what I was actually feeling. But, doing so ruined your auditing results, thus my statement that earnestly pursuing self-improvement worked, because lying and deceiving resulted in failure of the process. So, while holding the e-meter, you are asked self-exploratory questions by the auditor. The questions are sort of a 20-questions sort of algorithm that helps narrow down the problem you're having, and when asking the questions the auditor observes the reaction of the person and their meter readings to see if that line of questioning produces a negative emotional response. Wherever a negative emotional response is found, you move forward along that line, asking deeper and deeper questions until the person has an epiphany which resolves the problem. I've experienced these epiphanies many times, and they are often quite profound. Everything about Scientology might be a sham, all the explanations for why any of it works might be totally wrong, but earnestly done auditing does very quickly help you resolve psychological stress, and help you to change your own thinking and mind for the better. It is a real shame that the psychological field of science is not using e-meters (or something like them) and algorithmic therapy questioning to help people. It is deeply unfortunate that what's bad about Scientology makes everything that's good about it taboo.
I don't know what the pamphlets look like today, I haven't been in a church in over a decade. But, it was certainly always a bit over the top, though that's intentional, as I said. In Scientology doing things half-ass is considered really low-responsibility, so there's a lot of intensity to everything they do. That can certainly come across cultish, even if it weren't.
Well, it may seem that way to you, but it's not the truth. First of all, there are no people at the top, only Miscavige. LRH believed in near dictatorial leadership as the most effective method of organization. The positions close to Miscavige have had a pretty high turnover across the past 20 years. As I said my mother knew many of them (she was fairly high up in the church in the 80s), and I still have family that's in the Sea-Org (one of them is very high up, haven't spoken to that person in 15 years, but still get updates through the grape-vine). The lowest and highest rank Sea-Org members live nearly identical lives outside of their rank. They live in the same dorms, they eat at the same cafeteria, they get the same paycheck for personal use, they work the same number of hours, get the same number of days off. This applies to new young adults who joined a year ago and to old executives who've been in for 30 years. Honestly, to think the Sea-Org or its members are money-motivated is to severely underestimate them.
3141592653 ago
I appreciate your perspective. honestly, I'm extremely skeptical about the e-meter having scientific validity and would have to see research proving it. even lie detector tests are only 70% accurate, which throws their validity out the window. and no I never thought sea-org members were motivated by money, they strike me as victims being financially exploited.
djaeveloplyse ago
Just because it can be wrong doesn't mean that it has no scientific value. In the case of the lie detector, that it can be wrong is a legal problem. The lie detector is attempting to determine something very specific, whether a person is being honest in any particular answer. The e-meter, used in auditing, is really only trying to determine if you have a negative emotional response in general, not the cause of that negative response. Seen from this angle, and knowing that the e-meter and lie detector are functionally pretty much identical, it makes sense that the lie detector can be wrong a lot. Asking a person if they killed their wife is bound to be upsetting to them, even if they didn't kill their wife. You can't be sending people to prison based on something that's so hit or miss. In the case of the e-meter, it's an aid to a psychological therapy that is not a legal battle, nor a conflict at all, where there are negative consequences for being wrong. If you're wrong in an auditing session, having been misled by a wrong or misread reading, you just hit a dead end in the questioning, the person being audited says "I don't think there's anything here," and you go back to the previous question. Happens considerably less than 30% of the time, but it does happen, and it's really no big deal. Just means you wasted a minute.
Believe me, man, Sea-Org members are not exploited. Financially or otherwise. Again, that's an underestimation. They're actually highly intelligent, capable, and driven people. And, as I said, there's no money being made by anyone. They use all their money to buy real estate, actually, as a method of ensuring indefinite stability. The problem with the organization is not that these people are sheep, trapped in a cult. The problem is that they're highly competent people fanatically engaged in a cause they feel is of greater importance than anything else. The people being financially exploited are the poor saps that take out second mortgages on their homes to give to the IAS.