You're entitled to your beliefs, but remember that you believe in spontaneous existence, which even by atheist logic is not much "better" than believing in God. Existence itself is completely crazy, and its real and you believe in it. May as well believe in God then.
I don't really believe in much of anything, belief requires faith, which is another way of saying irrationality. I simply try to pick the most logical conclusion based on what evidence there is. I just try to live a good life, not hurt people who don't deserve it, and try to learn a bit about the universe.
Dont you believe in existence? Because existence is absolutely "crazy," I would say it's on par with God. And we do exist.
Belief in God is much more than just faith. Dont be fooled by simplistic buzzwords. Faith is how you apply belief in God once you have it, but it's not the premise of the belief.
I'm just saying existence itself is unfathomable to us humans. I define it with the question: why is there something rather than nothing? And note that "nothing" doesn't mean empty space because empty space is something (spacetime). And yet we know existence is real. This means that we can't rule out an explanation like God.
The premise of Christianity isn't just "ok just blindly believe this stuff without looking into it." You have faith in God after you get on board and know what Christianity is. It isn't just random blind faith, it's faith in something that you have reason to trust. It's a decision you make. And it is not based on appealing marketing, nor can it be, because it's not a religion of consumption. Many Christians present it as such, but they are wrong.
The moral code of western civilization is based on Christianity. You can describe it as "weak" but it isn't. We are so immersed in the sense of right and wrong that we take for granted where it came from.
I've never been convinced by that argument before, and I don't think I'll start today. It's impossible to define 'exist'. The concept is a human abstraction.
I was a Christian for 25 years, and I did a year of Seminary, I know the spiel. At the end of the day, you choose to believe things that are completely and utterly lacking an evidential basis. Faith is the antithesis of rationality.
It is not. Unless I missed the part where Jesus said "deliver to brown people my most fearsome ordnance, that you may take their oil. Keep the black skinned man in the ghetto when you can, and make unto thyself mad ducats so ye can buy a pimpin' room in heaven when ye die. Love your neighbor as yourself, lol, jk, every man for himself". It is weak because it's based on the nonsensical belief that there is a God who gives a damn and will punish those who are evil.
I know that there are evil men in this world, and the truth is that many or even most of them will never pay a price for their evil. I know that there are good men in this world who bear burdens of suffering wildly disproportionate to any harm they've ever done, and the fact is that many or most will die without recourse or succor. There is no god who cares either way, the only ones who can help or change things are us.
Humans being terrible is fundamental to Christianity. And the crimes you mentioned are condemned by Christian doctrine. If we learned anything from PG, it's that HW Bush and his ilk are Satanists posing as Christians. The punishment was never supposed to happen immediately. This was explicitly demonstrated by Jesus himself in various parts of the bible.
But anyway, thanks for hearing me out at least. I said what I have to say, and I read and considered your views and took them seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
Exactly. Me, I think that's a crock of shit. Humans aren't inherently terrible, or inherently good. Each of us develops as a product of our circumstances and the choices we make. I don't need your god's false redemption because I deny that I've ever done anything I need to be redeemed for.
You believe that you (and the rest of us) will be rewarded or punished in the afterlife. The problem with that is that Christians have time and time again used that as an excuse to commit all kinds of atrocities and to let other evils pass without resistance here in the real world. You keep people docile with the belief of a better existence they don't even have to fight for, and they go to their graves, still suffering and downtrodden, believing the lie. I just hope that as you finally sink into the long dark you have one moment of clarity and realize that your life has been wasted following false idols, but if I've learned one thing it's that there is no inherent justice in the universe.
People using it as an excuse to commit atrocities doesn't really speak to the doctrine itself, but to the nature of humans, who you view as neutral.
I also don't think it's something you don't have to fight for. It's very hard. I'd argue airhead Christians who think it's all good and don't do anything are hypocrites. Hypocrisy is not exclusive to Christianity. It tends to cluster around anything that's difficult, and Christianity happens to be difficult.
That's a fair point, but if we take history as our guide we have to realize that the doctrine has rarely had much sway on the reality of the Church (and I use this term generally to represent the amalgamation of all the Christian faiths). The history of Christianity is one of barbarous atrocity, brutality, oppression, and a ruling elite that have used it as a tool for social control to the great detriment of the average man. I don't know who said it, but I once heard it said: "Religion is judged truth by the common man, foolishness by the wise man, and useful by the rulers". That to me sums up Christianity's entire history after it went from a crowd-sourced grass-roots movement to a corporate enterprise in the fourth century.
That said, I don't actually think Christianity has a terrible moral code. We probably align on more moral issues than we don't. The problem is that some of the ones we don't agree on make our views irreconcilable. The idea of turning the other cheek is abhorrent to me. I would never intentionally cause unnecessary harm to another, and I expect the same from those around me. If somebody wants to break that rule and harm me then I am no longer bound by it either; in that case I will do my best to destroy them. This is the first great social lever in Christianity. The elite have trained you to take constant abuse passively.
Forgiveness, likewise, although forgiveness is appropriate in some relationships and circumstances. Forgiveness comes from love of a person, and must be given freely. Under no circumstances should a wronged man give forgiveness unwillingly. Forgiveness is the second great social lever. The elite have trained you to forgive even their worst abuses so that they may remain the elite.
Faith is probably the biggest problem though. I believe that what sets me apart from the animals is that I have the ability to make rational abstract judgements based on evidence i encounter. What I believe is a constantly evolving process which is molded and shaped by my experiences. It's important here to make a distinction: I don't "believe" in anything in the sense that you "believe" in God. I look for the most logical explanation given the evidence I have, and I accept that as likely (but never absolute) truth. Faith requires the suspension of judgment. Faith is the belief that something is true regardless of any evidence or lack thereof. To have faith you must give up your judgement on that issue. You're giving up part of what makes you human. Faith is the third great social lever in Christianity. They've taught you to believe untruths with fervent conviction. They promise you a better life in the afterlife, so you toil your whole life in that false hope until darkness takes you. They've taught you that a 2000 year old book written by primitive savages is a smart place to look for guidance. And now in this brave future of computers in every pocket, rocketships, airplanes, lasers, internet, nuclear weapons, and robots, and medicine you try to force on society a moral code suited to society 2000 years ago. Faith lets them lie to you constantly and for you to believe their lies.
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rodental ago
God exists exactly as much as Satan: not at all.
Touchdown50 ago
Your wrong. They both exist.
rodental ago
Gonna have to see some proof for that claim.
heywhatsgoingon ago
You're entitled to your beliefs, but remember that you believe in spontaneous existence, which even by atheist logic is not much "better" than believing in God. Existence itself is completely crazy, and its real and you believe in it. May as well believe in God then.
rodental ago
I don't really believe in much of anything, belief requires faith, which is another way of saying irrationality. I simply try to pick the most logical conclusion based on what evidence there is. I just try to live a good life, not hurt people who don't deserve it, and try to learn a bit about the universe.
heywhatsgoingon ago
Dont you believe in existence? Because existence is absolutely "crazy," I would say it's on par with God. And we do exist.
Belief in God is much more than just faith. Dont be fooled by simplistic buzzwords. Faith is how you apply belief in God once you have it, but it's not the premise of the belief.
rodental ago
Gonna need a pretty precise definition of exist if you want me to touch that one.
What's the premise?
heywhatsgoingon ago
I'm just saying existence itself is unfathomable to us humans. I define it with the question: why is there something rather than nothing? And note that "nothing" doesn't mean empty space because empty space is something (spacetime). And yet we know existence is real. This means that we can't rule out an explanation like God.
The premise of Christianity isn't just "ok just blindly believe this stuff without looking into it." You have faith in God after you get on board and know what Christianity is. It isn't just random blind faith, it's faith in something that you have reason to trust. It's a decision you make. And it is not based on appealing marketing, nor can it be, because it's not a religion of consumption. Many Christians present it as such, but they are wrong.
The moral code of western civilization is based on Christianity. You can describe it as "weak" but it isn't. We are so immersed in the sense of right and wrong that we take for granted where it came from.
rodental ago
I've never been convinced by that argument before, and I don't think I'll start today. It's impossible to define 'exist'. The concept is a human abstraction.
I was a Christian for 25 years, and I did a year of Seminary, I know the spiel. At the end of the day, you choose to believe things that are completely and utterly lacking an evidential basis. Faith is the antithesis of rationality.
It is not. Unless I missed the part where Jesus said "deliver to brown people my most fearsome ordnance, that you may take their oil. Keep the black skinned man in the ghetto when you can, and make unto thyself mad ducats so ye can buy a pimpin' room in heaven when ye die. Love your neighbor as yourself, lol, jk, every man for himself". It is weak because it's based on the nonsensical belief that there is a God who gives a damn and will punish those who are evil.
I know that there are evil men in this world, and the truth is that many or even most of them will never pay a price for their evil. I know that there are good men in this world who bear burdens of suffering wildly disproportionate to any harm they've ever done, and the fact is that many or most will die without recourse or succor. There is no god who cares either way, the only ones who can help or change things are us.
heywhatsgoingon ago
Humans being terrible is fundamental to Christianity. And the crimes you mentioned are condemned by Christian doctrine. If we learned anything from PG, it's that HW Bush and his ilk are Satanists posing as Christians. The punishment was never supposed to happen immediately. This was explicitly demonstrated by Jesus himself in various parts of the bible.
But anyway, thanks for hearing me out at least. I said what I have to say, and I read and considered your views and took them seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
rodental ago
Exactly. Me, I think that's a crock of shit. Humans aren't inherently terrible, or inherently good. Each of us develops as a product of our circumstances and the choices we make. I don't need your god's false redemption because I deny that I've ever done anything I need to be redeemed for.
You believe that you (and the rest of us) will be rewarded or punished in the afterlife. The problem with that is that Christians have time and time again used that as an excuse to commit all kinds of atrocities and to let other evils pass without resistance here in the real world. You keep people docile with the belief of a better existence they don't even have to fight for, and they go to their graves, still suffering and downtrodden, believing the lie. I just hope that as you finally sink into the long dark you have one moment of clarity and realize that your life has been wasted following false idols, but if I've learned one thing it's that there is no inherent justice in the universe.
heywhatsgoingon ago
People using it as an excuse to commit atrocities doesn't really speak to the doctrine itself, but to the nature of humans, who you view as neutral.
I also don't think it's something you don't have to fight for. It's very hard. I'd argue airhead Christians who think it's all good and don't do anything are hypocrites. Hypocrisy is not exclusive to Christianity. It tends to cluster around anything that's difficult, and Christianity happens to be difficult.
But anyway, good discussion.
rodental ago
That's a fair point, but if we take history as our guide we have to realize that the doctrine has rarely had much sway on the reality of the Church (and I use this term generally to represent the amalgamation of all the Christian faiths). The history of Christianity is one of barbarous atrocity, brutality, oppression, and a ruling elite that have used it as a tool for social control to the great detriment of the average man. I don't know who said it, but I once heard it said: "Religion is judged truth by the common man, foolishness by the wise man, and useful by the rulers". That to me sums up Christianity's entire history after it went from a crowd-sourced grass-roots movement to a corporate enterprise in the fourth century.
That said, I don't actually think Christianity has a terrible moral code. We probably align on more moral issues than we don't. The problem is that some of the ones we don't agree on make our views irreconcilable. The idea of turning the other cheek is abhorrent to me. I would never intentionally cause unnecessary harm to another, and I expect the same from those around me. If somebody wants to break that rule and harm me then I am no longer bound by it either; in that case I will do my best to destroy them. This is the first great social lever in Christianity. The elite have trained you to take constant abuse passively.
Forgiveness, likewise, although forgiveness is appropriate in some relationships and circumstances. Forgiveness comes from love of a person, and must be given freely. Under no circumstances should a wronged man give forgiveness unwillingly. Forgiveness is the second great social lever. The elite have trained you to forgive even their worst abuses so that they may remain the elite.
Faith is probably the biggest problem though. I believe that what sets me apart from the animals is that I have the ability to make rational abstract judgements based on evidence i encounter. What I believe is a constantly evolving process which is molded and shaped by my experiences. It's important here to make a distinction: I don't "believe" in anything in the sense that you "believe" in God. I look for the most logical explanation given the evidence I have, and I accept that as likely (but never absolute) truth. Faith requires the suspension of judgment. Faith is the belief that something is true regardless of any evidence or lack thereof. To have faith you must give up your judgement on that issue. You're giving up part of what makes you human. Faith is the third great social lever in Christianity. They've taught you to believe untruths with fervent conviction. They promise you a better life in the afterlife, so you toil your whole life in that false hope until darkness takes you. They've taught you that a 2000 year old book written by primitive savages is a smart place to look for guidance. And now in this brave future of computers in every pocket, rocketships, airplanes, lasers, internet, nuclear weapons, and robots, and medicine you try to force on society a moral code suited to society 2000 years ago. Faith lets them lie to you constantly and for you to believe their lies.