were talkin about another iconic gun today
friend to gangsters and our soldiers in europe alike
the chicago typewriter
the tommy gun
this is the thompson submachine gun
its so well known
and yet its story might surprise you
its the gun that literally invented the term submachine guns
so lets see how it came about
so its wwi and theres a guy named john thompson
hes grew up as an army brat to lt col thompson
so unsurprisingly he joined the army and became a lt colonel too just like his dad
he was in charge of logistics in the spanish american war for the cuban area
he did a really good job too
got a gatling gun and a mulefull of ammo to san juan hill
which was great because there were a lot of cubans who needed holes
in fact he did so good he became the youngest colonel in the army
he went on to help in the development of the 1903 springfield and the adoption of the 1911
so he had some experience in seeing automatic weapons and design and adoption of guns
this would help him later
as the world entered wwi thompson retired from the army because we werent shooting anybody and dagnabbit he wanted shooting
so he joined remington as their chief engineer
when he saw what bs trench warfare was hes like no
this needs more guns
and worked to create what he described as a trench broom
something you could carry up to the top of the trench with you on a raid like a regular rifle
but then blast through the entire enemy squad below you like with a machine gun
he described this as
get this
a submachine gun
he was finishing his design up in late 1918 but unfortunately peace broke out so he couldnt try it in action
but no matter because the design was still solid so they just went ahead with working on production
because you know a war is gonna happen again pretty soon right
thompson helped found a company called auto ordnance
but it didnt have any manufacturing capacity
so what they did is contract with colt because
i dunno
they can make guns right
except if you know anything about manufacturing you know that the more you make the cheaper they get
economies of scale
i took a class once
so they had colt make 15000 of them
fifteen thousand
and they didnt even have any contracts or anything
pretty big leap of faith in their design
so within about a year colt delivered them
and these are called the model of 1921 because thats when they were all made
and
they didnt really sell them to anybody
things were going really really slowly
they sold a few to like police or whatever
one of the early sales was to the post office
uhhhhh
cuz apparently we still have friggin stagecoach robberies
but hey whatever gets your foot in the door i guess
a few years later a number of them were sold to the marine corps just in time for them to use them in a couple of police actions
central america
china
and the marines loved them
take a guy who had a 1903 and give him a friggin annihilator and hes gonna love it
that was the official name originally btw lol
so then the military started actually looking into this thing
but the navy wanted some changes thompson
first thing they wanted was a slower rate of fire
the model 1921 fired at like fucking 900rpm or more
and the navy was like can you do more like 600
because 900rpm divided by 20rd magazine equals zero
and we need it to last longer than zero before reloading
so they added weight to the bolt and boom youre set
and the funniest thing about all this
remember those 15k weapons built in 1921
here we are in the late 30s and autoordnance is still using those same stockpiles to swap new parts into
once wwii was getting ready to kick off autoordnance starts running out tho and they need to start making more
so they contract with savage
and the cool thing is they still had all the tooling from the first batch colt made
so they started making some new ones and sold a few to france
like 3700
sold some to the uk
and then the army got involved
they wanted some more changes thompson
because for real guys this thing is expensive and time consuming to make
ill show you in detail later but yeah
so much milling
so the army was like bro bro bro
this gun is way too fancy and we are shooting way too many nipponese for this level of fancy
economize
so savage helped redesign it by taking away all sorts of fancy things and ended up with a much simpler receiver with the basic necessities
and this is where the thompson really took off
of the three military variants there were nearly 2 million made
at the end of the war production stopped
and that was it
honestly even in wwii it was already becoming obsolete
compare the thompson to the sten gun and see
actually lets see right now
ok so the thompson submachine gun is an open bolt blowback submachine gun firing .45 acp out of 20 or 30rd stick magazines or 50 and 100rd drums
although the wwii military models deleted the ability to use drum magazines
when we talk about the thompson there are a couple big variants
the 1921
1928
and m1a1
originally the 1921 used a brass locking piece that was meant to operate off of the blish principle
now the blish princple states that different metals have different levels of friction against each other when at different pressures like in a gun
its also total bullshit that has even less connection to reality than lie detectors lol
but hey it was the nineteen teeny teens so what do they know
it still kinda worked tho
and like i said it fired way fast
for the 1928 model they gave it a smaller recoil spring so they could add a bunch of metal around it in the bolt
way heavier bolt equals slower cyclic rate
and that was pretty cool
but the biggest change was the m1a1
they totally ditched that fake blish block
and instead of this complicated milled bolt with diagonal slidey bits
they just did a bigass chunk of metal
they also ditched the removable stock
the 1921 had a badass button you could just slip the stock off with
thats how thompson designed the original gun
but that takes a lot of machining so the army ditched it and made it permanently attached
gay
another big change was the forend
they ditched the classic gangsta grip
and swapped to a simpler and still effective forend
honestly it works pretty darn good so no biggie
and the last big thing is they dropped the drum magazine
because for real tho that drum mag is way heavy and also all drum mags are terrible to have to carry on your body
thats just how it is
ok so lets see how these puppies worked
like i said before the original ones used the blish system
aka magic voodoo
and the m1a1 swapped to simple blowback
but there were other changes
originally they had awesome complicated wait why am i target shooting with a submachine gun sights
switched to ok this is an immobile hole in a sheet of metal
model 1921 had charging handle on top while m1a1 has it on the side
early models could use a drum that slides in from the side and the m1a1 removed those slots
and lets take a moment to see how the mag and fire control works
the mag release is where you might expect
and can be used by the thumb
except you slide it up
its a swinging arm that rotates around that rivet in front of the trigger
weird no
and see those fire control
separate fire safe
and semi auto
thats how it was
and the later models had the milled checkered selectors swapped for pressed tubes
lol oh well
weird thing about the stick mags is they have a slot along the back that rides up into a channel in the receiver
not super quick to get in
kinda strange system honestly but hey whatever
what else can i say about this classic
it was a gun just a little too late for wwi
but that put it in a good position to work out all its kinks in time to feature in a starring role in wwii
wwii saw the development of an entire new generation of submachine guns to replace it
but it held its own because its an inherently great design
everybody loved it
it goes bababababa
and what more can you ask from a submachine gun
it was expensive and time consuming to make
but it was worth it because the quality was excellent
hell id pay for it
in fact you can keep the change
ya filthy animal
pew pew
#click here for previous articles
robot7247 ago
Have never held an actual Thompson SMG, only and 80s carbine version with dork 16" barrel. Amazed how heavy it was.
More than an M1 Garand, nearly that of (2) M1 Carbines, but only 2/3 the weight of a BAR.
Geebus!
clamhurt_legbeard ago
yeah its crazy
definitely a first generation submachine gun
nowadays were like wtf just used stamped stuff guys why does this weigh so much
but then again blowback guns are still heavy for size because of the bolt
so you take that and add it onto a milled receiver and its going to weigh a ton lol
robot7247 ago
It's amazing how quickly things progressed up to the M3A1. That knocks 2 full pounds off the Thompson.
But from a looks standpoint, the Thompson w/ drum is hard to beat -
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/402/images/lrg/53165a5x1.jpg
clamhurt_legbeard ago
dude for real
stamped submachine guns are iconic
its such a no brainer and thats why they became so prolific
nowadays i think we are seeing the next revolution in manufacturing with 3d printing
you can just go into a 3d cad program and make a new design like nothing
within a couple days you have a whole new iteration to test
i think itll have the same effect on personal firearms that stamping and casting did in industrial made firearms
robot7247 ago
Complete agreement. Prediction: 2 years tops before hobbyist sintered-metal 3D printers are affordable.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
honestly with the way you can use nylon in 3d printers now im not sure if we even need metal
except for perhaps the required parts like the barrel
robot7247 ago
Imagine being able to print slides, rails and other metal parts though...
clamhurt_legbeard ago
ya thatd be pretty cool
but are you aware of the 3d printed jigs for electrochemical machining deterrence dispensed has created
you can now take whatever stock part and 3d print the jig to etch rifling into pipe
might be able to apply that to other machining now too
or 3d print jigs like polymer80
IanTheTerrible ago
Stick mag master race
clamhurt_legbeard ago
for real tho drums just arent super awesome
Battlefat ago
This was the first time I’ve ever taken the time to really look at a Thompson though I’d been aware of their provenance. I’m now enamored with the clean lines of the later models, and would prefer to own the redesign, but the charm and passion of the inventor seems to shine in the earlier model which tugs after my own heart
clamhurt_legbeard ago
ya me too
its weird how you can think you know a thing but discover so much when you actually look at it in detail
Battlefat ago
Re-reading old articles to glean new knowledge is it’s own reward...I think I might open your catalogue and do just that
clamhurt_legbeard ago
dude
i friggin do it and i wrote the dang things
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Drunkenst ago
fired one at the indoor range at Trenton State Prison.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
no way
how was it to shoot
Drunkenst ago
Way. Soft. Same range they teargassed us at. Pricks.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
dude thats awesome
its weighs a ton so i should hope its soft
Drunkenst ago
That is exactly correct. Not full auto, but recoil was negligible.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
ive shot an uzi full auto but it was the huge behemoth with full wooden stock and giant suppressor
Drunkenst ago
Bono (pos) penned a line along those lines. Good tune off how to disarm atomic bomb lp I think.
Nadeshda ago
Geeh that is thorough and timely! Marines love them! As the old guard told me today they used to say “Gun ho!” Lol and the first sale to the post office, shucks with all these idiot postmen these days, that would be disastrous come voting season, lol...
Thanks Clammy for a wonderful post!
clamhurt_legbeard ago
i learned a lot writing this
its a neat gun that isnt like the typical submachine gun because its so early
that magazine well is very interesting
Nadeshda ago
Yeah, that’s a lot of kinks they sorted out, just checking it was late for wwi but it in time for wwii? The article says it was too late for wwi, lil confuzzled...
Nadeshda ago
PS: @clamhurt_legbeard made an edit to make it clearer... AND i double pinged ya... :p
clamhurt_legbeard ago
ya
designed specifically for the trenches of the great war but just a few months too late
but that gave it time for use in several minor skirmishes so they could work out all the kinks
and it was ready to go from the beginning
no teething issues
thedirtypuma ago
Nice read. I'm pretty sure you could buy a full auto one out of the sears catalogue back in the day. I do hear that they are annoying to take down and clean though.
clamhurt_legbeard ago
its not super bad
plus its blowback so i dont imagine it needs to be immaculate
DillHoleBagHands ago
Dilly wants Tommy gun. Dilly does not have Tommy gun money. Dilly buys more Mosins. Dilly pleased.