I would love to fight this but it is seeming like an inevitability. If you have the means, it’s time to leave the big cities. Sell your houses for what I consider to be an insanely high price (given today’s market) and buy a plot of land with a well for the same money. Once everyone gets on this boat the city houses will be cheap and farm houses expensive. You get bonus points if your country house is over 250 miles from the city.
The death of cash brings a social credit system (linked to corporate control like conspirologist says), and the alternative is a regression to bartering - which will be made illegal. If you live in the country this is possible. A split cord of wood is worth three honey wagon visits. Frozen raspberries trade for fresh honey at about 3:1 pound for pound. Bakers are setting up and now deliver once a week, and they accept Wild game and berries. The weird thing is that we have other “job” jobs, but wondering when they will end...gotta buy flour somehow and that doesn’t grow in the mountains. Fortunately, gold does. The only hurdle for newcomers is overcoming that label - the sooner you move, the newer you aren’t. Alaska is great, by the way.
And bugs and snow. If you like fishing, hunting, dirt bikes, quads, and mountain bikes, canoes, and guns - it helps. Sometimes bears are walking through town, but usually you have to head into the bush looking for them. I just spent half a day on the lake and caught nothing, mind you. Still had fun.this wouldn’t be the ideal place for lots of people to love off the land, unless you’re on the coast.
I know some people who just like to camp and hike in the wilderness, and live in town. I gotta say, flushing toilets that don’t need pumping out are kinda nice.
regression to bartering - which will be made illegal. If you live in the country this is possible. A split cord of wood is worth three honey wagon visits. Frozen raspberries trade for fresh honey at about 3:1 pound for pound. Bakers are setting up and now deliver once a week, and they accept Wild game and berries.
If only we had some kind of thing we could trade as an intermediary...
For the sake of argument, “cashless society” is what we’re pondering - so the usual intermediary, or rather, it’s digital alternative with no circulated bank notes, are not available. Coyly referring to “an intermediary” negates the entire premise, which is detailed in the title.
I agree with metals having real value, but like many “non-currency” fans I’m still not sold on digital coins. I think they are ultimately traceable, or the ones that aren’t eventually banned will be. Having value in your hands is the only way.
-and the blockchain itself, depending on how the tags are managed and folded into the next transaction. We thought that the blockchain was secure, but then a series of trades Nov 2016 showed us differently. They will control the exchanges, so even a decently designed coin will be compromised once cashed in.
that still doesn't solve the issue of not being able to pay taxes though, after you're shut out from banking how are you doing to receive the legal tender that the government demands of you?
Good point. Taxes are low enough (a few thousand or less for smaller plots) but that could change....then what? I can only come up with RV and houseboat living.
Your off the grid Soy Boy...you don’t pay taxes because you’re NOT USING YOUR SS #. If you do not use your SS # you’re aNot volunteering to pay taxes. Look it up
Yep. We are going to need to set up an entire parallel economy at some point, so we had better start thinking about mechanisms and tactics right now. With lots of people out of work, it might be possible to jump-start a local currency by partnering with farmers. Unemployed people do work, get paid in the new currency, and use the new currency to buy food. Now the farmers can use the currency to buy whatever labor they need from the workers. The pay rate of the workers sets the value of the currency, at least at first. Once you have this kind of back-and-forth going, other people and businesses will be more willing to get involved. The biggest challenge will, of course, be counterfeiting. If you start to have real success and the ruling class can't shut you down through the law, they'll try to devalue your currency. I don't have a good answer to that.
Nobody is that much off the grid nowdays, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. Imagine a currency that cannot be debased, controlled by government or any organization, that can be used over the internet and in person, and can tokenize things like gold, silver. For those off grid, pay in the silver. For smart folk, keep your silver on deposit somewhere and use the tokenized version.
Its not true, these systems can be proven mathematically, it is a great power we can use to free us forever of the hiearchy, if only people would come down from tge fucking trees and see it.
One possibility I've thought of is silver dollar communities. Morgans, eagles, peace -whatever silver dollars you want. Even quarters and dimes (got to be careful to only accept ones minted up to 1964). Everyone only accepts silver dollars as payment for goods/services. The market value is around $30 (and up) right now but let's say $30.
One benefit is sales and income taxes. Say, for example, you want to buy a refrigerator that would cost around $1,200 (in federal reserve notes). If you went to a store that only accepted silver dollars as payment, you could buy that refrigerator for 40 silver$ instead. If your state charges 7% sales tax, that's an extra 2.80 silver$ on top of the purchase price (instead of $84 in federal reserve notes). So on your receipt and on the shopkeeper's books, you paid a total of $42.80 for your refrigerator.
Legal tender laws are for payment of debts. Purchasing goods from a store is not a debt, so I see no reason why stores couldn't refuse payment in federal reserve notes. However, taxes could still be paid in fiat. So that 2.80 silver$ in taxes the shopkeeper collected for your refrigerator payment could be paid to the state in federal reserve notes.
Similarly, another example: 0.50 silver$/hr would be a decent wage for unskilled labor. But due to minimum wage laws, hired employees in the traditional sense wouldn't be feasible to pay with silver dollar payments. But a workforce of self-employed contractors could be possibly be raised. 20 silver$/week per contractor is what unskilled labor would cost. The contractor would owe $4 in taxes (payable in federal reserve notes).
The big drawback I can think of is that it isn't too scalable (assuming the US mint doesn't increase their production). Also there are no more silver dimes and quarters being minted. Only the US government can create these. The silver dollar economy would not work the same legally if silver rounds were used (silver that doesn't have an official face value). That would be considered barter by taxing authorities, so "market value of the property" (silver) would need to be considered, and capital gains taxes calculated and paid out (a complicated pain in the ass).
Delightfully subversive, but watch out for the enemy suddenly bringing a bunch of old silver coins out of storage and flooding your local market with them or just straight-up counterfeiting them.
The covid psyop is a masquerade for putting the new system in place. While I agree that getting out of cities is a smart move, the idea that they're just going to let those who choose to opt out continue to live peaceful, self sufficient lives seems unlikely. Agenda 2030 calls for herding everyone into "smart" cities for reasons of "climate change" and "sustainability." The infrastructure for total technological control is being built now. Big cities in China are the model they wish to see implemented worldwide.
You think Russia is woke? Think again. They are just as deep into the Covid conspiracy as everyone else maybe even a bit more. Every public transport and place has card readers that you can only enter with a covid pass for example.
As a libertarian I think it’s completely fine for tyranny by megacorp because it isn’t the state! Create your own bank, megacorps and society you lazy fuck! Bootstraps!
It’s the same stupid fucking mindset as Fox News neoconservatives believing the number one enemy of the world is “liberals.” Yes, liberals are bad, but the scope of the game is so much bigger. “...but my free market!” “Let the free market decide!” There is no free market in the corportocracy of America. Government and mega corps are in the same bed and are ready to fuck you in the ass as hard as possible to ensure that you abide as a good consumer.
I’m aware. Half of voat still preaches the free market and libertarianism. They get asshurt and refer back to theory whenever you bring up some sort of situation where their ideology turns to shit. Literally just the opposite side of the same coin of communists. They expect humans to be rational actors. Another thing that makes them angry is when you point out that get woke go broke doesn’t work. I’ve yet to see one person show me a megacorp that isn’t doing better than ever before. Their enemy is neoliberal global capital but they’ve been tricked into thinking it’s the useful idiot footsoldiers and that megacorps are secretly wishing for communism. Yeah, maybe in 200 years where there are no more white people and global communism. Right now your enemy is megacorps and only the power of a strong state can stop them. I honestly don’t know what the fuck is wrong with lolberts, they just hold on to their belief that it’s still 1776 and we rules haven’t changed a bit. We have technocracies, global oligarchs. Those that rule us don’t even have to be within 5000 miles of you like they did back then. Conservatives are even more retarded than communists. At least communists think capitalism has some faults whatsoever, libertarians think it’s god and that if just the pesky government would get out of the way everything would be perfect.
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WhyNoDonuts ago
I would love to fight this but it is seeming like an inevitability. If you have the means, it’s time to leave the big cities. Sell your houses for what I consider to be an insanely high price (given today’s market) and buy a plot of land with a well for the same money. Once everyone gets on this boat the city houses will be cheap and farm houses expensive. You get bonus points if your country house is over 250 miles from the city.
The death of cash brings a social credit system (linked to corporate control like conspirologist says), and the alternative is a regression to bartering - which will be made illegal. If you live in the country this is possible. A split cord of wood is worth three honey wagon visits. Frozen raspberries trade for fresh honey at about 3:1 pound for pound. Bakers are setting up and now deliver once a week, and they accept Wild game and berries. The weird thing is that we have other “job” jobs, but wondering when they will end...gotta buy flour somehow and that doesn’t grow in the mountains. Fortunately, gold does. The only hurdle for newcomers is overcoming that label - the sooner you move, the newer you aren’t. Alaska is great, by the way.
Ddboomer ago
I have been considering Alaska. Lots of wilderness and bears :-)
WhyNoDonuts ago
And bugs and snow. If you like fishing, hunting, dirt bikes, quads, and mountain bikes, canoes, and guns - it helps. Sometimes bears are walking through town, but usually you have to head into the bush looking for them. I just spent half a day on the lake and caught nothing, mind you. Still had fun.this wouldn’t be the ideal place for lots of people to love off the land, unless you’re on the coast.
I know some people who just like to camp and hike in the wilderness, and live in town. I gotta say, flushing toilets that don’t need pumping out are kinda nice.
Ddboomer ago
I love the outdoors.
prairie ago
If only we had some kind of thing we could trade as an intermediary...
WhyNoDonuts ago
For the sake of argument, “cashless society” is what we’re pondering - so the usual intermediary, or rather, it’s digital alternative with no circulated bank notes, are not available. Coyly referring to “an intermediary” negates the entire premise, which is detailed in the title.
prairie ago
I meant gold and silver. We don't need government funny money to do transactions.
WhyNoDonuts ago
I agree with metals having real value, but like many “non-currency” fans I’m still not sold on digital coins. I think they are ultimately traceable, or the ones that aren’t eventually banned will be. Having value in your hands is the only way.
prairie ago
Agreed on digital. Even if the crypto itself isn't trackable, the app/device you use will be compromised.
WhyNoDonuts ago
-and the blockchain itself, depending on how the tags are managed and folded into the next transaction. We thought that the blockchain was secure, but then a series of trades Nov 2016 showed us differently. They will control the exchanges, so even a decently designed coin will be compromised once cashed in.
prairie ago
Exchanges are big IOU factories. People wanting to play the market give lots of control to exchanges. Hold your own keys or you don't own it
WhyNoDonuts ago
I grit my teeth a bit when I have to pay some extra charge or another for coins, but it’s worth it.
Soyboy69 ago
that still doesn't solve the issue of not being able to pay taxes though, after you're shut out from banking how are you doing to receive the legal tender that the government demands of you?
WhyNoDonuts ago
Good point. Taxes are low enough (a few thousand or less for smaller plots) but that could change....then what? I can only come up with RV and houseboat living.
Ddboomer ago
Your off the grid Soy Boy...you don’t pay taxes because you’re NOT USING YOUR SS #. If you do not use your SS # you’re aNot volunteering to pay taxes. Look it up
itsALWAYStheBANKERS ago
Live in an area with like minded people. Create your own barter economy and scrip to support it. We dont need bankers.
Varlet ago
Start minting your own currency from silver or odd metals with a certain base value(like bushels of wheat for example)
Ddboomer ago
Bartering will be the best trade. Go beyond this piece of rock trade stuff
waucka ago
Yep. We are going to need to set up an entire parallel economy at some point, so we had better start thinking about mechanisms and tactics right now. With lots of people out of work, it might be possible to jump-start a local currency by partnering with farmers. Unemployed people do work, get paid in the new currency, and use the new currency to buy food. Now the farmers can use the currency to buy whatever labor they need from the workers. The pay rate of the workers sets the value of the currency, at least at first. Once you have this kind of back-and-forth going, other people and businesses will be more willing to get involved. The biggest challenge will, of course, be counterfeiting. If you start to have real success and the ruling class can't shut you down through the law, they'll try to devalue your currency. I don't have a good answer to that.
glennvtx ago
cryptocurrency
Ddboomer ago
You won’t have internet if your off the grid ...
glennvtx ago
Nobody is that much off the grid nowdays, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. Imagine a currency that cannot be debased, controlled by government or any organization, that can be used over the internet and in person, and can tokenize things like gold, silver. For those off grid, pay in the silver. For smart folk, keep your silver on deposit somewhere and use the tokenized version.
Ddboomer ago
Anything on the internet can be hacked and controlled.
glennvtx ago
Its not true, these systems can be proven mathematically, it is a great power we can use to free us forever of the hiearchy, if only people would come down from tge fucking trees and see it.
Ddboomer ago
If the sheeeat hits the fan...your crypto will mean ZERO
glennvtx ago
IF the shit hits the fan, all of these things will be worth zero.
Ddboomer ago
Exactly! Food, shelter, water and some cloths.
glennvtx ago
Bullets, medicine, alcohol ( both cleaning and drinking ) water, food are the best trading materials.
Ddboomer ago
Exactly.
pshawman ago
Bitcoin SV. 1/10th of a cent for an instant transaction everytime, can go much lower. And not taken control of by big banking.
albeit ago
One possibility I've thought of is silver dollar communities. Morgans, eagles, peace -whatever silver dollars you want. Even quarters and dimes (got to be careful to only accept ones minted up to 1964). Everyone only accepts silver dollars as payment for goods/services. The market value is around $30 (and up) right now but let's say $30.
One benefit is sales and income taxes. Say, for example, you want to buy a refrigerator that would cost around $1,200 (in federal reserve notes). If you went to a store that only accepted silver dollars as payment, you could buy that refrigerator for 40 silver$ instead. If your state charges 7% sales tax, that's an extra 2.80 silver$ on top of the purchase price (instead of $84 in federal reserve notes). So on your receipt and on the shopkeeper's books, you paid a total of $42.80 for your refrigerator.
Legal tender laws are for payment of debts. Purchasing goods from a store is not a debt, so I see no reason why stores couldn't refuse payment in federal reserve notes. However, taxes could still be paid in fiat. So that 2.80 silver$ in taxes the shopkeeper collected for your refrigerator payment could be paid to the state in federal reserve notes.
Similarly, another example: 0.50 silver$/hr would be a decent wage for unskilled labor. But due to minimum wage laws, hired employees in the traditional sense wouldn't be feasible to pay with silver dollar payments. But a workforce of self-employed contractors could be possibly be raised. 20 silver$/week per contractor is what unskilled labor would cost. The contractor would owe $4 in taxes (payable in federal reserve notes).
The big drawback I can think of is that it isn't too scalable (assuming the US mint doesn't increase their production). Also there are no more silver dimes and quarters being minted. Only the US government can create these. The silver dollar economy would not work the same legally if silver rounds were used (silver that doesn't have an official face value). That would be considered barter by taxing authorities, so "market value of the property" (silver) would need to be considered, and capital gains taxes calculated and paid out (a complicated pain in the ass).
Thoughts?
waucka ago
Delightfully subversive, but watch out for the enemy suddenly bringing a bunch of old silver coins out of storage and flooding your local market with them or just straight-up counterfeiting them.
Bahramu ago
The covid psyop is a masquerade for putting the new system in place. While I agree that getting out of cities is a smart move, the idea that they're just going to let those who choose to opt out continue to live peaceful, self sufficient lives seems unlikely. Agenda 2030 calls for herding everyone into "smart" cities for reasons of "climate change" and "sustainability." The infrastructure for total technological control is being built now. Big cities in China are the model they wish to see implemented worldwide.
AssumingControl ago
So good thing I am learning Russian right now... or so it seems.
grendelbiter ago
You think Russia is woke? Think again. They are just as deep into the Covid conspiracy as everyone else maybe even a bit more. Every public transport and place has card readers that you can only enter with a covid pass for example.
Ralemlol ago
As a libertarian I think it’s completely fine for tyranny by megacorp because it isn’t the state! Create your own bank, megacorps and society you lazy fuck! Bootstraps!
This is literally how libertarians think.
xenochrist15 ago
It’s the same stupid fucking mindset as Fox News neoconservatives believing the number one enemy of the world is “liberals.” Yes, liberals are bad, but the scope of the game is so much bigger. “...but my free market!” “Let the free market decide!” There is no free market in the corportocracy of America. Government and mega corps are in the same bed and are ready to fuck you in the ass as hard as possible to ensure that you abide as a good consumer.
Ralemlol ago
I’m aware. Half of voat still preaches the free market and libertarianism. They get asshurt and refer back to theory whenever you bring up some sort of situation where their ideology turns to shit. Literally just the opposite side of the same coin of communists. They expect humans to be rational actors. Another thing that makes them angry is when you point out that get woke go broke doesn’t work. I’ve yet to see one person show me a megacorp that isn’t doing better than ever before. Their enemy is neoliberal global capital but they’ve been tricked into thinking it’s the useful idiot footsoldiers and that megacorps are secretly wishing for communism. Yeah, maybe in 200 years where there are no more white people and global communism. Right now your enemy is megacorps and only the power of a strong state can stop them. I honestly don’t know what the fuck is wrong with lolberts, they just hold on to their belief that it’s still 1776 and we rules haven’t changed a bit. We have technocracies, global oligarchs. Those that rule us don’t even have to be within 5000 miles of you like they did back then. Conservatives are even more retarded than communists. At least communists think capitalism has some faults whatsoever, libertarians think it’s god and that if just the pesky government would get out of the way everything would be perfect.
glennvtx ago
The state is the primary enemy, a strong state will only accelerate the dystopian future.