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k_digi ago

Incorrect, on a number of levels:

The context of "automation" is put into the current framework, this is your error in thinking.

  • automation will allow for decentralized self sufficiency.

  • once the first automated micro "farm" starts production, then it will provide excess.

  • then so on and so forth, the only simple requirements are freedom of certain keys, I.e enrgy etc.

  • automation won't occur without these.

  • the current framework wont fit an automation system.

mojo4567 ago

okay i will give you the point that as of now, certain barriers like energy, space, and cost will deter automation, you are right on that, our current world will not support the type of automation i am talking of. The future however, is anyones guess. However

  1. Decentralized self sufficiency, yes, but the whole point of capitalism is that more people lose so that some can win (even if the ratio is 49.99 to 50.01), which means that in some shape or form there will be costs associated with "self sufficiency" (i know seems like an oxymoron, but its not) that will be an expense, even if that expense is less than a penny.

  2. Cost of food does not impact birth rates noticeably, the biggest indicators are expenses (cost of living) and Income (unemployment)

  3. therefore, in a capitalist society with expenses and income, it does not matter how self sufficient the citizens are, there will still be a natural decline in population

Now as a redditor in the comments below stated, all of this is true only if we continue with the current system. once communism or socialism takes over, then these statements are no longer true, and everything you said above is true.

This argument was all based on what i synthesized from the excerpts you gave me however. If you ment something entirely diffrent then what i took away please say so :)

EDIT: Also, i do agree though that in some form decentralization is the only way to go from here. I am an anarcho socialist though, so that is not a dirty word :)

k_digi ago

Yeah well, "social system" will pretty much have less meaning in the future as well.

we will function under "configuration systems"

its' pretty simple look at it like "VOAT" there is more freedom here than "Reddit" more decentralization of info what do you call "VOAT" ?

well take that basic principal and expand it into a general configuration system, "socialism" doesn't really work like that, there will really be no "central distibution" in decentralization there might be a "network" and some "organization" but that's about it.

mojo4567 ago

Yes, and i get that. in the future it very may well be near impossible to tell the upper class, from the lower class. That still wont negate that fact that the "majority" of people will be giving more than the receive, however that might look like, and that the minority will be receiving more than they give, however THAT might look like. I think part of our disconnect is that you are talking forms of social hierarchy mainly, decentralized social classes that wont resemble the pyramid we have had forever, and i am talking economic systems. Now, for decentralized economics there are plenty of great options, parecon being my favorite, that would work wonders. however, decentralized economics still fall prey to the same glut of expenses vs. income, and in a society where automation exists, the quality and output of your work will be the only thing that matters. We will not have time to worry about the effort of work, becuase things will move ahead with or without you, and only those who can keep up will get the job, becuase even in a decentralized society job specification will be needed, and especially in a decentralized society with automation we will have a case by case basis for everything where renumeration for effort will impede production rather than fairly equate it. So even if someone gets a job, and is rewarded with effort instead of output, they will only have been chosen becuase they are the best possible canidate for output, no matter if they are rewarded for effort.

So that is why decentralized economics will not help this problem. It will only disguise the pyramid in a new fashion, with employment shifting towards a more conservative hiring scheme, hiring only the minority for a position, becuase if you pay everyone based on effort that means that <50% are payed more than they are worth and >50% are payed less than they are worth. So, why would you hire the person who is only 49% "good" at this job to do it, when you will have to pay him as if he is 50% good at it. This is even worse than what we have now, becuase this means that instead of hiring someone based on if they produce profit for the company (it does not take alot of work or thinking to make mcdonalds 10$ an hour, giving them a $1 profit for you), they will only hire you if you are better than 50% of the people out there at something. All of this will cause rising unemployment, seeing as the majority of people will be unfit for jobs, and even in a decentralized world the pyramid will still exist due to this, causing the afformentioned problem, of declining population.

k_digi ago

https://voat.co/v/Contact/comments/153828#submissionTop

see this - contrib if you like - it is not a joke.

mojo4567 ago

Interesting read. The implications of that are enormous, to say the least if they sign the deal

k_digi ago

It's not even close to finished - will outline the Prime mandate which will be :

all the things i mentioned, decentralized abundance domestic anti-grav and communication Sats to network everything (AG obviously)

k_digi ago

Ok just read the rest yeah, i guess it is hard to think in these terms, but you are thinking about "money" i am a decentralized economist, so i know everything about "money".

"money" is just a convenient token for "human energy and extended energy" in the system we have now "money" is issued exclusively as debt.

take the debt away and the system does not function. (as you can see)

"money" decentralized without debt is just (again) a token for "human" (here now) energy its just a token for exchange of things and services.

it can exist just fine in a decentralized environment. but it won't be like how it is now.

mojo4567 ago

About jobs :

I fully agree with you, in a fully automated society there will be no such thing as a job, no one will have to get a job, ect. and population will rebound and grow. However, this writeup is talking about what will happen leading up to the creation of total automation, ai and the whole nine yards. Until that happens there will be a demand for human labor, in one form or another, and there will be a demand for reconciliation for this labor. at a certain point, yes we will be fully automized, and the few things that are not automated yet, but will be, will be voluntary for one reason or another.

Now, the Money:

It doesnt matter whether money is issued like debt in this discussion, and of course money will still "work" in a decentralized society, It is treated, like you have stated, as an extension of human energy. Put in x, get y amount of "money". It doesnt matter whether money is centralized (USD, Yen, ect.) or Decentralized (bartering) in the future, it will still stand that A. Someone will own capital B. someone will "purchase" the labors of that "capital" and C. There will always be a minority that is better/more deserving to make profit off of that capital. So, no matter how money "works" in the future, everything i said in my last statement is still valid.

k_digi ago

Nope you are incorrect re money.

It does matter if it is centralized or issued as debt , because all viable "money" competes in decentralized information.

So those "money's" just wouldn't be used, thier "confidence" would be low.

I agree in part with what you are saying re transition, however I think we will get there much more smoothly than some predictions.

k_digi ago

ok - wait, just stop for one second...

i'm going to read what you wrote , however you have a pretty big flaw in everything you wrote:

"get a job"

can you define this?

what is a "job" if there is automation and decentralized abundance remind me again why people are "working at a job"

nope what they will be doing is "contributing to society" it would be pretty much voluntary and would work a lot better than how it does now.

you see there are only a tiny few evolutions that humans need to kick this solution off, and as the process is decentralized it could start tomorrow, it could have already started you wouldn't know.