Whatever happened in these countries it's the result of embargoes, or capitalist meddling. You can't lock someone up and then laugh that he's starving. You can't manipulate oil prices and then go "look, their income plummeted and so their level or living, their system doesn't work!". You can't bomb the hell out of someone, install dictators, CIA running rampant, and then say "isn't our economic system the best".
What a person believes is up for a "vote", and you can influence it my making sound arguments (or emotional appeals, if a person is vulnerable). What a person believes influences the actions they take, which influence how society is run. Thus, there is benefit to having discussions about these things on the internet.
Socialists and communists won't stop pushing their failed ideologies all the time, so it's up to rational people to counter their propaganda with facts.
Capitalist and feudal lords won't stop pushing their greedy ideologies all the time, so it's up to rational people to counter their propaganda with facts.
still better than discussing what what honey boo boo is doing or what a celeb wore on the red carpet. people are homeless in the streets but some athletic team moving cities is more important.
I really think it's more possible that the "everything is sexist" thing started behind the scenes in politics. But..... that's a little conspiracy driven I know.
There are no varying degrees of free markets. Someone is either free to market any product or idea, or they are not free to market any product or idea. The black markets are the only free markets.
By that autistic definition, there is no such thing as a free market. For example: If anyone is free to market any product or idea, that would include slavery. But if slavery exists, those slaves ability to market products products or ideas could be restricted by their owners. And if not everyone has that right, it isn't actually a free market.
Cause we go to work and there's always one person who has views and wants to debate them. Usually he's got no stats and believes any BS. So you get one and vent a little.
@middle_path is on a watch list.. but then he likes gardening, and I've yet to link gardening with trans degeneracy. Some even say, that cabbage helps lower female hormones.
We debate these ideologies online to spread understanding of the implications of the social systems that result from them. There will always be people who seek to gain power and control over others. If we don't keep this conversation alive, those with power will quietly take everything from us.
People have this primitive connection to their beliefs, going absolutely apeshit if there's a perceived threat to said opinions. The internet made it easier to see these base social constructs. But thats not the root of the problem.
The biggest issue is that politics and economics appeal to the lowest common denominator. They've largely taken the place of religion in everyday society. They should be fields respected as chemistry or philosophy, yet we're subjected to "hurr Murica first, yes we can". A solution would require something fundamentally new to the human condition.
Why does anyone every try to improve their understanding of anything? It is first and foremost an exercise in testing your own understanding. Sure the plutocracy of this world has things locked up, but some day they may come undone and an opportunity for something better may present itself. The founding fathers had long debates and discussions before setting up the US system. It held out pretty well until the communists found ways to exploit and undermine it. It also helps more people make connections in their own mind and slowly shifts the light to the underbelly of lever pullers that rule us all.
I was sitting in a waiting room yesterday with ellen on. I was trying desperately to ignore it while surfing voat. In a way, I was both happy and sad over my state of aggravation. I was glad I was awake enough to hear the subtle brainwashing and emotional manipulations, but sad that I could never be just dumb and happy, be-bopping through life. Would it be better to live in ignorance and denial until they come for me and my family because of my race, a minor slip of the tongue, my resources are needed, they just can't feed everyone? I am not sure if it is better to live in blind happiness for a while or to live with the burden of knowledge and hope for a better tomorrow. In the end, I choose hope. hope for me, and hope for those that follow me.
The founding fathers had long debates and discussions before setting up the US system. It held out pretty well until the communists found ways to exploit and undermine it.
I don't think that's a valid statement. The people who corrupted this country are not communists. If they were I'd be able to take care of my BASIC medical needs without weighing the importance of NOT GOING BANKRUPT over my health. I think if we are to be fair its more about Capitalism than Communism. Sure even Capitalism works when people play by the rules... and clearly things are out of balance because generations ago people stopped playing by the rules. But this brings me back to my philosophy, which is to say that all systems of government work in the right time and place, its the people who run these systems, both at an administrative level and at the citizen level which FUCK THEM UP. It just so happens that Capitalism breeds financial greed more than Communism/Socialism. Western Capitalist Democracy fell not just because of the people up a the top, but also because of people like you and me. Their flaw is greed, ours is complacency. So how much more time do we waste discussing who has more blood on their hands? Or do we simply move forward.
An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. And as humans our inherent flaw is that we are prone to error. As individuals, as parents, as mentors and ultimately as leaders. This is the mantra I live by. The planet is my home, everyone is my brother or sister, my father and my mother. In the moment misguided people, like the person I used to be, who have not yet had the opportunity to evolve their perceptions may make themselves my enemy. They may attempt to kill or destroy me or those I hold dear, but I do not fight them to defend myself. I fight and resist for the sake of our future, for the planet and for everyone else.
It is important to understand that past forms of governments did not change because corruption had run its course. They changed because of progress in industry and technology which altered the dynamics of life on this planet. Forms of government are bound to only being relevant within certain paradigms or within phases of certain paradigms. We have up until now ALWAYS operated under the premise of resource scarcity, and our systems have been setup to allocate those limited resources to those who "deserved" it the most. But these are basic survival instincts, and we wonder why there is war, murder, rape, theft... Capitalism is Survivalism, And you can't expect people who grow up in the jungle, who have to hunt and kill game to really be able to put on a suit and tie and play nice.
The next chapter in human destiny is shifting to a new paradigm, one which we have never had or attempted in modern recorded history. And that paradigm is born from one simple question which you must all ask ourselves.
What is the best way to structure our societies once we fully allow technology to free us from the jungle, from the burden of day-to-day survival?
Single payer systems and universal healthcare work right now under capitalism, and poor Cuba has healthcare on par with US expensive one. Check WHO ratings. You just need to want them, instead of being this brainwashed. Greed makes you blind.
The WHO actually ranks the US #1 in important categories like choice of provider, dignity, confidentiality, autonomy, and timely care. But because we haven't gone full socialist, they use their more biased categories to shove us down the list behind shitholes like Cuba.
It should be no surprise that a group of leftists is helping a Communist regime push their propaganda about healthcare. But no ranking in a study can change the reality that actual Cuban citizens have to live with.
You made me think of something. I consider myself libertarian-not-ancap. I've tried, and have not found a functional logic or rather, a logic that will function in a real-world setting, for having no government at all. Nor can I see sustainability in any attempt to create such a situation. It will, despite efforts to stop it, and due entirely to human (and most life on this planet) nature, organize into a hierarchical structure. Which is government.
That being said, you, by the end of your first paragraph, bring the point, that government ruins ideals. Yeah, modern western capitalism is shit. It has been corrupted by the ability to leverage governmental favors. Not true capitalism as it were. Most American/Canadian/British/et al capitalists know this though and are displeased.
But that isn't much different than any Not True Communism argument. I'm vehemently opposed to communism, but I can't pretend that That particular argument is identical. I mean communism can work, but NOT at all if there is a hierarchical structure to manipulate. So not if it involves too many people. Successful communism requires voluntarism. Just like capitalism.
The only real solution is for us to abandon globalism entirely, abandon states, abandon cities and live in small groups, you could even call them tribes, by whichever model the group prefers. And that would last about 3-4 years tops, before some asshole came along wanting to be boss.
Maybe a better question is, Which broke-ass bullshit system is safer, more sustainable and more pleasant to live in?
My answer is capitalism...but I think we have somethings in common, even if your answer is different than mine. That is, immense frustration.
Your dream at the end requires one thing. The end of resource scarcity. It is a beautiful dream. A wonderful dream. The universe itself is finite. The earth is finite. You and I are finite. These things can be measured. Its not just an idea we have. A forest has X number of trees. A tree takes up X space, cleans X amount of air in a year, will make X tables or sheets of paper. The bird that lives in that tree eats X number of berries a year, produces X number of offspring, and maintains a territory X big. The rock I pick up is of X weight and X dimensions, the sling I put it in has a pouch X size, and thongs X long. I give the stone in the sling X momentum with my energy, aim at a specific point and eat dove for dinner...or not. Maybe I miss and lose that stone. The dove is reserved for ME. It is my resource because I earned it. I can choose to give it to others though. The sticking point for a capitalist talking about communism is always the use of force. You know that.
I mean, if someone invents a Replicator like on star trek that would be the first step toward your dream. A Replicator would make all things out of any things, but it doesn't solve every issue. Short of that happening, I'd say you might do well to enjoy what you can while you are here.
Or you could invent that Replicator. It seems feasible.
There are more people wise to what is going on in some level than you might think. We would not have had Trump and Brexit otherwise.
As far as the reason to argue on the Internet is concerned, yes, OP, you are right in 99% of cases you are not going to convince your opponent that they are full of shit and bad at reasoning, but you might convince a spectator that your opponent is full of shit, beginning the redpilling process. That is worth something.
It is because many people are foolish enough to believe in Earthly Utopia. They have turned human 'progress' into a religion with codes of conduct that will lead them to the Holy Land.
Because you cannot change our shit system at the ballots anymore. Nobody with a brain should be arguing for a political ideology if they want change. The best course of action is to get corrupted politicians out by getting rid of the money barrier. Without money barrier we would see so many more candidates than shitshows like clintons or bushs
Because there is nothing wrong with discussing ideas. Ideas become movements. Movements make change. Imagine if you had said "why do people debate politics online, it won't change anything." If true, Trump (for good or bad) wouldn't be president. Talking online is the new newspaper. We can present the facts to people and it may cause a massive movement.
I'd say that's his biggest issue. That it's conservatives who are discussing how to make their country better. While the left is busy shitting their diapers and setting fire to things.
middle_path ago
Like where?
anon9948 ago
Whatever happened in these countries it's the result of embargoes, or capitalist meddling. You can't lock someone up and then laugh that he's starving. You can't manipulate oil prices and then go "look, their income plummeted and so their level or living, their system doesn't work!". You can't bomb the hell out of someone, install dictators, CIA running rampant, and then say "isn't our economic system the best".
prairie ago
Because it is, on an individual level. I'm thankful for the arguments people made against aggression.
middle_path ago
What do you mean it's up for vote on an individual level?
prairie ago
What a person believes is up for a "vote", and you can influence it my making sound arguments (or emotional appeals, if a person is vulnerable). What a person believes influences the actions they take, which influence how society is run. Thus, there is benefit to having discussions about these things on the internet.
middle_path ago
That makes sense.
killercanuck ago
A former soviet union state might not be so bad actually.
BoiseNTheHood ago
Socialists and communists won't stop pushing their failed ideologies all the time, so it's up to rational people to counter their propaganda with facts.
anon9948 ago
Capitalist and feudal lords won't stop pushing their greedy ideologies all the time, so it's up to rational people to counter their propaganda with facts.
GutterTrash ago
Because their overlords pay them to construct a narrative to brainwash and distract the masses.
lord_nougat ago
But it really should be.
heretolearn ago
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
dunno who's quote that is but it stands true.
middle_path ago
I don't really think that's true. Politics is an "idea" and I see a lot of not-so-great minds discussing it all over the internet.
heretolearn ago
still better than discussing what what honey boo boo is doing or what a celeb wore on the red carpet. people are homeless in the streets but some athletic team moving cities is more important.
middle_path ago
I never said it wasn't better. I just think that quote is very lame.
middle_path ago
I really think it's more possible that the "everything is sexist" thing started behind the scenes in politics. But..... that's a little conspiracy driven I know.
cyks ago
There are no varying degrees of free markets. Someone is either free to market any product or idea, or they are not free to market any product or idea. The black markets are the only free markets.
xbryn ago
By that autistic definition, there is no such thing as a free market. For example: If anyone is free to market any product or idea, that would include slavery. But if slavery exists, those slaves ability to market products products or ideas could be restricted by their owners. And if not everyone has that right, it isn't actually a free market.
middle_path ago
That explains how terrible his logic is.
chryseos-geckota ago
Cause we go to work and there's always one person who has views and wants to debate them. Usually he's got no stats and believes any BS. So you get one and vent a little.
middle_path ago
Wait, you think smokey is trans?
middle_path ago
You think America has a free market?
Chiefpacman ago
Debates are nice. Senseless arguing, I agree is dumb
SaveTheChiIdren ago
@middle_path is on a watch list.. but then he likes gardening, and I've yet to link gardening with trans degeneracy. Some even say, that cabbage helps lower female hormones.
middle_path ago
I'm on a watch list? I posted a video of myself on v/JustGrowIt yesterday. Hope this helps your investigation.
EngelbertHumperdinck ago
We debate these ideologies online to spread understanding of the implications of the social systems that result from them. There will always be people who seek to gain power and control over others. If we don't keep this conversation alive, those with power will quietly take everything from us.
go1dfish ago
Because people are convinced that it is up for a vote.
Gerplunckamo ago
People have this primitive connection to their beliefs, going absolutely apeshit if there's a perceived threat to said opinions. The internet made it easier to see these base social constructs. But thats not the root of the problem.
The biggest issue is that politics and economics appeal to the lowest common denominator. They've largely taken the place of religion in everyday society. They should be fields respected as chemistry or philosophy, yet we're subjected to "hurr Murica first, yes we can". A solution would require something fundamentally new to the human condition.
individualin1984 ago
Why does anyone every try to improve their understanding of anything? It is first and foremost an exercise in testing your own understanding. Sure the plutocracy of this world has things locked up, but some day they may come undone and an opportunity for something better may present itself. The founding fathers had long debates and discussions before setting up the US system. It held out pretty well until the communists found ways to exploit and undermine it. It also helps more people make connections in their own mind and slowly shifts the light to the underbelly of lever pullers that rule us all.
I was sitting in a waiting room yesterday with ellen on. I was trying desperately to ignore it while surfing voat. In a way, I was both happy and sad over my state of aggravation. I was glad I was awake enough to hear the subtle brainwashing and emotional manipulations, but sad that I could never be just dumb and happy, be-bopping through life. Would it be better to live in ignorance and denial until they come for me and my family because of my race, a minor slip of the tongue, my resources are needed, they just can't feed everyone? I am not sure if it is better to live in blind happiness for a while or to live with the burden of knowledge and hope for a better tomorrow. In the end, I choose hope. hope for me, and hope for those that follow me.
Whitemail ago
Obama wants you to have hope... because hope means you don't have what you want and what you need. It means you're sitting around hoping for it.
B166-ER ago
I don't think that's a valid statement. The people who corrupted this country are not communists. If they were I'd be able to take care of my BASIC medical needs without weighing the importance of NOT GOING BANKRUPT over my health. I think if we are to be fair its more about Capitalism than Communism. Sure even Capitalism works when people play by the rules... and clearly things are out of balance because generations ago people stopped playing by the rules. But this brings me back to my philosophy, which is to say that all systems of government work in the right time and place, its the people who run these systems, both at an administrative level and at the citizen level which FUCK THEM UP. It just so happens that Capitalism breeds financial greed more than Communism/Socialism. Western Capitalist Democracy fell not just because of the people up a the top, but also because of people like you and me. Their flaw is greed, ours is complacency. So how much more time do we waste discussing who has more blood on their hands? Or do we simply move forward.
An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. And as humans our inherent flaw is that we are prone to error. As individuals, as parents, as mentors and ultimately as leaders. This is the mantra I live by. The planet is my home, everyone is my brother or sister, my father and my mother. In the moment misguided people, like the person I used to be, who have not yet had the opportunity to evolve their perceptions may make themselves my enemy. They may attempt to kill or destroy me or those I hold dear, but I do not fight them to defend myself. I fight and resist for the sake of our future, for the planet and for everyone else.
It is important to understand that past forms of governments did not change because corruption had run its course. They changed because of progress in industry and technology which altered the dynamics of life on this planet. Forms of government are bound to only being relevant within certain paradigms or within phases of certain paradigms. We have up until now ALWAYS operated under the premise of resource scarcity, and our systems have been setup to allocate those limited resources to those who "deserved" it the most. But these are basic survival instincts, and we wonder why there is war, murder, rape, theft... Capitalism is Survivalism, And you can't expect people who grow up in the jungle, who have to hunt and kill game to really be able to put on a suit and tie and play nice.
The next chapter in human destiny is shifting to a new paradigm, one which we have never had or attempted in modern recorded history. And that paradigm is born from one simple question which you must all ask ourselves.
What is the best way to structure our societies once we fully allow technology to free us from the jungle, from the burden of day-to-day survival?
BoiseNTheHood ago
LOL, you actually think that's possible under Communism. Imagine being this brainwashed.
anon9948 ago
Single payer systems and universal healthcare work right now under capitalism, and poor Cuba has healthcare on par with US expensive one. Check WHO ratings. You just need to want them, instead of being this brainwashed. Greed makes you blind.
BoiseNTheHood ago
LOL, good one.
You actually believe the statistics that a dictatorship is self-reporting without allowing independent inspectors to verify?
The Cuban healthcare system is garbage, as evident from the filthy unsanitary hospitals and patients having to bribe their doctors to get care and turn to the black market for things as common as aspirin.
anon9948 ago
What part of "WHO ranking" you don't understand?.
BoiseNTheHood ago
The WHO rankings are biased, motivated more by ideology than a true ranking of the quality of care. For instance, they rank countries on subjective criteria like "fairness."
The WHO actually ranks the US #1 in important categories like choice of provider, dignity, confidentiality, autonomy, and timely care. But because we haven't gone full socialist, they use their more biased categories to shove us down the list behind shitholes like Cuba.
It should be no surprise that a group of leftists is helping a Communist regime push their propaganda about healthcare. But no ranking in a study can change the reality that actual Cuban citizens have to live with.
abattoirdaydream ago
You made me think of something. I consider myself libertarian-not-ancap. I've tried, and have not found a functional logic or rather, a logic that will function in a real-world setting, for having no government at all. Nor can I see sustainability in any attempt to create such a situation. It will, despite efforts to stop it, and due entirely to human (and most life on this planet) nature, organize into a hierarchical structure. Which is government.
That being said, you, by the end of your first paragraph, bring the point, that government ruins ideals. Yeah, modern western capitalism is shit. It has been corrupted by the ability to leverage governmental favors. Not true capitalism as it were. Most American/Canadian/British/et al capitalists know this though and are displeased.
But that isn't much different than any Not True Communism argument. I'm vehemently opposed to communism, but I can't pretend that That particular argument is identical. I mean communism can work, but NOT at all if there is a hierarchical structure to manipulate. So not if it involves too many people. Successful communism requires voluntarism. Just like capitalism.
The only real solution is for us to abandon globalism entirely, abandon states, abandon cities and live in small groups, you could even call them tribes, by whichever model the group prefers. And that would last about 3-4 years tops, before some asshole came along wanting to be boss.
Maybe a better question is, Which broke-ass bullshit system is safer, more sustainable and more pleasant to live in?
My answer is capitalism...but I think we have somethings in common, even if your answer is different than mine. That is, immense frustration.
Your dream at the end requires one thing. The end of resource scarcity. It is a beautiful dream. A wonderful dream. The universe itself is finite. The earth is finite. You and I are finite. These things can be measured. Its not just an idea we have. A forest has X number of trees. A tree takes up X space, cleans X amount of air in a year, will make X tables or sheets of paper. The bird that lives in that tree eats X number of berries a year, produces X number of offspring, and maintains a territory X big. The rock I pick up is of X weight and X dimensions, the sling I put it in has a pouch X size, and thongs X long. I give the stone in the sling X momentum with my energy, aim at a specific point and eat dove for dinner...or not. Maybe I miss and lose that stone. The dove is reserved for ME. It is my resource because I earned it. I can choose to give it to others though. The sticking point for a capitalist talking about communism is always the use of force. You know that.
I mean, if someone invents a Replicator like on star trek that would be the first step toward your dream. A Replicator would make all things out of any things, but it doesn't solve every issue. Short of that happening, I'd say you might do well to enjoy what you can while you are here.
Or you could invent that Replicator. It seems feasible.
KarlWayne ago
Very well put.
KoKansei ago
There are more people wise to what is going on in some level than you might think. We would not have had Trump and Brexit otherwise.
As far as the reason to argue on the Internet is concerned, yes, OP, you are right in 99% of cases you are not going to convince your opponent that they are full of shit and bad at reasoning, but you might convince a spectator that your opponent is full of shit, beginning the redpilling process. That is worth something.
Anonymous_User_69 ago
It is because many people are foolish enough to believe in Earthly Utopia. They have turned human 'progress' into a religion with codes of conduct that will lead them to the Holy Land.
anon9948 ago
So let's do nothing because you can't get 100% bulletproof utopian world.
Kael_thas_Sunstrider ago
One could slowly convert from one to the other. But yeah, it is too much of a discussion. We should aim at the current problems.
Daeshaniqua ago
Because you cannot change our shit system at the ballots anymore. Nobody with a brain should be arguing for a political ideology if they want change. The best course of action is to get corrupted politicians out by getting rid of the money barrier. Without money barrier we would see so many more candidates than shitshows like clintons or bushs
BiochemistryStudent ago
I think it's a way to give themselves the illusion of control. If they can argue about it, then it makes it a manageable idea.
piratse ago
Because there is nothing wrong with discussing ideas. Ideas become movements. Movements make change. Imagine if you had said "why do people debate politics online, it won't change anything." If true, Trump (for good or bad) wouldn't be president. Talking online is the new newspaper. We can present the facts to people and it may cause a massive movement.
smokratez ago
I'd say that's his biggest issue. That it's conservatives who are discussing how to make their country better. While the left is busy shitting their diapers and setting fire to things.
xbryn ago
The modern world has made people's lives so easy, that they have nothing better to do with their time.
SaveTheChiIdren ago
Not my time, there are more important things to discover, like who's a tranny? Trannies are everywhere.