The Palantir/YCombinator Voat is Unsafe shill narrative from 2016 has morphed into "PIA VPN & Voat Sold to Jew Pornographers":
https://archive.ph/dy0fh
That's Nomochomo bragging about creating Moonmooch to "infiltrate" PG and GA in order to discredit Crensch, asking for upvotes in GA, in discussion with R3BIRTH. We'll get to the big picture about what they are up to in a minute.
Moonmooch posted the thread about moderation to GA at 7:47am on 3/2/20 https://archive.ph/ZMYrc
But it was DanglingGoatBalls -- the supersneaky "Baiis" account -- who posted the exact same thread to pizzagate last night about fifteen minutes apart. Here's a screencap of the pg modmail removal: https://files.catbox.moe/xfnjpf.png
In case you missed it because you were busy investigating globalist child rapists instead of those here to derail our exposure of them, DanglingGoatBalls -- two L's -- is our old saboteur EsotericShade, who showed up with a renewed gaslighting campaign the minute I started investigating Abigail Wexner.
You may recall that ES deployed multiple sock puppet accounts to manipulate consensus by pushing content he agreed with and trying to censor content he didn't like. This involved attacking, smearing, lying about, vote brigading and intimidating some users. It also involved posing as a victim and an expert in order to win the trust and support of others (grooming). Some of those groomed found themselves later being attacked by his alts. Others found themselves used by him as human shields when he manipulated them into joining his brigading efforts, an operation designed to create collateral damage when Crensch and I and the rest of the mod team exposed him.
Voat has very few rules, but vote manipulation is absolutely unaccaptable, as CEO and admin @PuttItOut notes here:
"Voat bans manipulation, and this includes vote farms/farmers, because it destroys the credibility of our platform."
Subverse owners and moderators have three tools to deal with such abuses:
- We can expose and reprimand the behavior and ask the user to delete his account.
- We can flair his username with a warning badge.
- And we can ban him and his alts.
We tried number one, but ES refused to take responsibility for his actions and tried to slip back into the community as if nothing happened. We tried option two, but he made the GoatBalls account and resumed his work. That leaves option three, banning, which I have now done.
ES/GoatBalls takes great pride in his ability to deceive and manipulate...so much that he eventually has to brag about how smart he thinks he is. Recently, he felt compelled to boast about he and Kevdude spamming the board with shitposts to turn Millennial_Falcon into a ban-happy deletion machine so they could "put Vindicator in power." This is a lame attempt to associate yours truly with two of the biggest shills in Voat history, part of their overarching goal to convince PG and GreatAwakening contributors that Voat is compromised to discourage us from documenting globalist crimes.
Which brings us to their misadventures yesterday. They are pushing the idea that Voat's days are numbered, because the angel investor Putt announced last year "must" be the VPN provider that offered free trials to a few goats, PIA, despite zero evidence of that being true.
This is part of a long-term "Voat is compromised" narrative related to PIA that was initiated nine months ago by Nomochomo. You can see me pointing it out then. He doubled down and began insinuating Voat is now controlled by an Israeli pornographer in November when PIA (the VPN provider) merged with cybersecurity company Kape. Nomo characterized this as PIA being controlled by a Jewish porn producer, despite himself quoting the fact that Kape's Teddy Sagi actually lost a significant amount of control in the merger. He has yet to produce any evidence any of these companies are invested in Voat. A quick look at Nomo's history shows he loves to harass PuttItOut.
Those of you OG pizzagaters will recognize this is exactly the same campaign that shitposters ran here involving "Y Combinator". Y Combinator is a tech incubator -- venture capital for tech startups by the Palantir guy, Peter Thiel. Voat received a small grant from it when they first started. It was one of the first tools used at the very beginning to try to attack PG mods and sow distrust in the mod team and Voat when they booted us from Reddit. Get a load of those pushing it. Whaddya know! EsotericShade. TrustTheTruth. Hojuruku. Nomochomo. All the guys who've tried to derail our work. They're running the same old playbook, folks.
I have suspected Moonmooch was Nomo's new sockpuppet since he first appeared. It amused me quite a bit to have a shill posting legit research and help build our amazing cache of dirt on the pedovores, and he wasn't causing any trouble. That all changed with this latest play by the Voat is Compromised Disinformation Team, so Moon gets the boot, as well.
One final element: R3BIRTH fucked up yesterday afternoon and admitted to being Kev while swinging his dick talking to me:
[–] Vindicator 6 minutes ago
Then, Hi Kev. Must have sucked to have to kill that powerful account of yours. LMAO
[–] R3BIRTH [S] 3.2 minutes ago
You really think that phased me?
Think of it like an onion: you peel back one layer, and maybe there's a stench. It stings your eyes a bit, kind of irritates. But, once you chop the fucking onion you start crying, wondering why you even attempted that.
This is the situation you find youself in. I allowed you to peel a little, but you'll soon find that the power I have simply cannot be taken without everyone in tears.
He can't help crowing about the damage he thinks he's done and the power he thinks he has. (Yet here he is pretending not to be Kev with his PV buddies). Since Kev allowed ES and Hojuruku to maraud at will disrupting our work and claims to be behind the latest anti-Voat psyop, R3BIRTH won't be joining us here any longer, either. :-)
Last week, they tried to drown my Wexner submission with drama, and I gave them a little history lesson. This is what it's really all about: disrupting research.
Please have a look at that first thread again, folks. Read through what I've presented, here. They are pushing the same Shareblue narrative that's been used since the beginning of this subverse: "Voat is compromised". Yet none of our research has been deleted. I freely link people to it on Twitter all the time. The same research that Putt linked on the "Voat is on Fire" page because it was being DDoSed last summer. Wexner was also a topic in that Junkerman research, just sayin'.
Carry on, people. Stay frosty. I'll do my best to expose the fuckery. You know we are doing something right when they go to this much trouble. :-)
Give 'em Hell!
EDIT: https://archive.ph/UE4Kj and https://archive.ph/wip/a5lZ3
view the rest of the comments →
BrennKommando ago
Scroll down to How can I contact you? and look up the email address that used to be [email protected] but is now [email protected]. Now scroll down to Technology and there you will find the link to the domain edon.garden. Then have a look around Here. Those are facts!
The part about Voat shutting down or rebranding to a Jew friendly version on the other hand is admittedly still just speculation on my part. Between Putt distancing himself from Voat, cynabuns also disappearing, Voat being overrun by spambots and actual shills no longer needing ccp to post and statements from another PIA related asset such as this, you have to admit something is terribly off with the state of Voat. Something that to me looks very much like by design.
I could be wrong of course, let's hope I am, but if I'm right there are people here on Voat that deserve a fair chance to set up a backup plan.
Drstrangebeard ago
two arrows, one pointing up, one pointing down. transpose them. voat has always been associated with israel. I don't understand any of this. if trumps peace plan works out wont that kick off the apocalypse? I guess I get wanting to fulfill prophecy. but shouldn't these things kind of happen organically? i'm speaking for the average joe just punching the clock trying to fix the little emergencies all around him. whats going on here? i'm not part of anyones jihad or revolution or helter skelter or what the heck ever. i'm just a guy eager to plant potato's and tomatos and mow my lawn so people can stroll on it. but you guys with all your big ideas just complicate my life. you troublemakers stay outta my neighborhood.
the_magic_man ago
You do need ccp to post. Below 15 ccp means you can't start threads and can only comment once a day. Problem is, it completely limits free speech which is the whole point of voat. But no one cares because they don't want alternative opinion.
Vindicator ago
I don't think it has a huge bearing on the premise of this submission, though, which is that the saboteur accounts I mentioned are running their suppress pizzagate research "Voat is compromised" narrative. Back in 2016, it was Palantir/YCombinator, and that was based on a true fact as well -- Voat did get some startup money from YCombinator. Given the fact that every time Putt rolls out new code, we get a state-level entity DDoSing us, it looks to me like they are fearmongering to disrupt whatever Putt is up to with edon.
BrennKommando ago
Oh no you are absolutely correct on that. I just wanted to point out that part isn't speculation and perhaps a bit poorly phrased in my original post and needed a bit of elaboration. I didn't find anything in my investigation that suggested Voat was turned unto a honeypot, so yeah the fear mongering seems silly to me as well.
argosciv ago
Furthermore, why is it that you are using an "about" link which is not the current "about" link used in the site's footer as the basis for this fear of Voat being compromised?
@Vindicator @Crensch @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld @PuttItOut
Vindicator ago
On December 12, 2019 someone archived voat.co/about/content and it looks exactly like it does today -- no "edon".
Archive.fo has a bunch of snaps of several different voat.co/about urls
There are also about/ and about/intro urls. Not to mention a bunch of different content/about urls.
So what is the difference between the two about urls? Where does the /about url link from, since it's not the link at the bottom of the page? Who first found it and how did they find it, since it's not the About page linked at the bottom of the screen?
@BrennKommando Thoughts?
BrennKommando ago
Ehh.. I'm about to head to bed shortly, but this was the topic where we stumbled upon the edon thingy. We're a bit all over the place so it might be difficult to read through. One problem we had with finding exact dates was that public access got turned off and archive.today hadn't yet set up the camfex account so there are some unknowns in there we simply couldn't find.
I'll have a look at it tomorrow.
Vindicator ago
Wow. That page is cancer. My eyes! o_0
So Nadesha was the first person to find it?
There is no archive at that location. I find that highly suspicious. It's also highly suspicious the submission was deleted.
Also, I couldn't see anything on that page that showed where on Voat one clicks to end up at /about instead of /content/about.
What are the odds Putt tweaked a non-used About url just to fuck with the Gangs of Voat? Can't help wondering if maybe this was his way of creeping out nefarious Voat abusers like Kev and EsotericShade so they'd kill their accounts.
Deshy ago
Naw someone overwrote it:
See here: https://voat.co/v/SoapboxBanhammer/3584786/21937038
This is how I stumbled on it.
@argosciv I believe @sandhog was the first, that I know of, to notice something but I only found this out afterwards.
Searchvoat by term: Edon /oldest indicates that I'm not the only one nor the first one, I think, to notice this.
https://searchvoat.co/?t=Edon&o=on
The post was deleted as a lot of evidence was circumstantial at the time and I was not keen on spreading fires where there wasn't any need.
Putts had made comments shortly after this so kinda left it there as life got busy.
https://voat.co/u/PuttItOut/comments
It’s only been two months since he last said something public. @peaceseeker just being curious but what is the longest Putts has been quiet, that you know of?
argosciv ago
Oh and FYI, there's zero mention of "edon" by @SandHog anywhere prior to this submission (and not even one here).
So whoever told you that is full of shit.
Deshy ago
https://voat.co/v/ProtectGoats/3597014/22037534
It was sent directly to me.
argosciv ago
Not seeing anything related to "edon" or the old about page in that entire chain or what @SandHog linked to.
Deshy ago
Like I said he sent it directly to me in pm, we were trying to iron out some details. Sorry it’s not public.
argosciv ago
I guess that's up to @SandHog to confirm, then.
SandHog ago
@Deshy is correct. I stumbled across it back in November or thereabouts. I'm pretty sure I reached that About page from a link on either the FAQ or the User Agreement page because I was poking around there to see if Putt had updated anything since he had been MIA for so long. I thought it was a little weird at the time but wasn't overly concerned about it (I'm still not) and figured mentioning it publicly would only lead to 'muh Voat is comped' nonsense. There were only two mentions of it on searchvoat at the time I discovered it.
argosciv ago
Okay so we can pretty much rest assured that the "comped" narrative stems from Nomochomo's bullshit, which by no coincidence is linked to ES's bullshit, which by no coincidence is linked to bullshit from other sources one can expect it from, up to and including Amalek.
Go. Fucking. Figure.
@Crensch @Vindicator @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld @PuttItOut
Deshy ago
Yes Sir, pm's in my world still remain private but each to their own.
argosciv ago
Ah, so it's everyone else who ran with it and cooked up a new "VOAT COMPROMISED!" narrative then, because they do indeed just want to see Voat burn.
The question is, though, how did you find your way to the old "about" page – given that it stopped being used in the site footer as of July 14th 2019 (months before your post)?
Deshy ago
I managed to copy my first post as my edit was overwritten when someone archived it.
Here I was speaking to @terannotterran about that very thing -> https://voat.co/v/SoapboxBanhammer/3584786/21937038
Seriously a stumble upon as you read through the mumbo jumbling waffling you’ll see I added a mere line or two about it.
Yes, finding it disturbed me a bit but I didn’t know enough about it to go hollering off the rooftops, I was hoping someone could fill me in more.
So you noticed it in the code a long time ago?
Well when talking to several tech dudes, some plug-ins presented themselves as candidates for a potential option to the in-code Edon mentions.
@chempergrill might know more here.
Secondly, an optional thought at the time, Putts could have wanted to broaden his work portfolio by adding Edon to the code work as a front for future business as the name Voat doesn’t always win interviews I would think.
Or, another idea that I recall, the funding was a venture that PIA lost interest in and it literally fizzled out as what happens often in the tech world.
This could have really knocked Putts’ confidence back on top of all the drama. I genuinely hope he is doing okay.
Aneeway, that’s as far as my thinking got. When Putts said he is the only one that has access to the keys of Voat. I believed him, seriously what else can one do... I still have faith in him, I hope it’s not in vain...
Vindicator ago
What do you mean "someone overwrote it"? That's not how archive.fo works. It makes an additional capture. You can see them all if you put an asterisk at the end of the base url. There are some submissions on here where I have made numerous archives of the same post over time in order to document vote brigading, so I know this to be true.
Furthermore, there was no archive of that url at all.
Deshy ago
I didn’t know that. Thanks.
That must be bum archive link, sorry.
I found the original post here: https://archive.ph/qW3iB
Unless your talking about another url??
Vindicator ago
Thanks. But that's not the link you provided at the top of this post, which @BrennKommando said was where this whole thing started.
In that thread, you said:
But that link, https://archive.md/gW3iB, the original evidence cited in your December submission, goes nowhere.
Now you are giving a link that has the same url ending as the link you gave on December 30, 2019 in the SBBH post? This archive.ph link just goes to your original Edon Garden submission, not where you found the evidence you cite that led you to make it.
Why are you going round and round in circles?
I'd like to know how you found the unused /about page mentioning "edon" if it has never been linked from Voat. Or I'd like to see evidence of it being linked from Voat and where on Voat that happened.
Edit: links added
Deshy ago
Bum archive link was discovered that same night.
Post deleted cannot be edited to correct.
Asterisk page multiple archive technique unknown at the time.
Are we understanding yet?
I stumbled on it looking at an old post.
I can try recreate the process when I have time on how I got there.
As it wasn’t the main theme of the post and a stumble upon, we find ourselves tracking in circles.
How did @sandhog find it?
Haven’t been on preview voat for a while, does that have an about section yet? My names are deleted there, can you check?
Will let ya know if I find anything else useful.
BrennKommando ago
From memory.. @Deshy found the alternative "about" link from looking at old posts. For the sake of it, she was also then one that talked me out of dropping the doxx 2 months ago.
I suspect that she disapprove of me dropping the doxx, but she's not me and I'm not her. I'm still not sure I made the right call either.
Other than that I don't think I understand your question?
Vindicator ago
Yes. That is what I would like to know. Which old posts? The one she cites in the deleted 12/30/2019 submission is a link that goes nowhere. See the links in the comment of mine you just replied to.
When I asked where she found the "edon" info, she linked me to that 12/30 submission, not the source material for it.
No one has been able to say where on Voat they found a link to the unused /about page that had "edon" on it. In @Deshy's original 12/30 submission, @Rotteauxx just pops up with a SearchVoat of previous comments mentioning it. None of those explain how that page was found, or offer any actual replicatable evidence of their claims, either.
In my experience, when you have inflammatory claims made by difficult-to-vet submissions based on broken links or information presented by deleted accounts, eyebrows should go up.
Deshy ago
https://archive.ph/JOfUn
Is this what you are talking about?
Vindicator ago
No. I was talking about what you have waved off as a "bum link". In that submission, you gave a bad link to show how you'd come to your conclusion. Now you are saying @Sandhog DMed it to you.
All this going around and around ends up in one place: No one can show when or where that unused /about page ever linked from Voat.
Sandhog said he thought it linked from the faq or User Agreement pages, but both of those pages are /content/ urls. Neither of them has links to the About information, other than the link that is on the bottom of every page of Voat, which is also a /content/ url. Nor has anyone put up any archives showing links to the About section ever in the text of thos pages.
@BrennKommando @argosciv
Deshy ago
You seem confused, sorry about that. Conversations with Argo in this thread just pointed to Sandhog finding it first, that’s all.
Scan to the bottom of these pages to see the Edon links and the dates shown when they were live and archived.
Photo: https://files.catbox.moe/xqm353.png
Archive link: https://archive.ph/https://voat.co/about
Still not sure I understand what you are referring too if this ain’t it.
Man just ELI5 me Sir. I aint too proud for you to break it down, let’s hope yer patient unless you are in a rush with this for some reason...
@brennkommando @rotteuxx @argosviv
Vindicator ago
No, I'm not confused at all. I asked for some kind of evidence showing those /about pages were ever linked to from anywhere on Voat. Clearly, they exist. However, there is no evidence they have ever been "in use".
Putt said after the last DDoS that there was a mole. Someone he trusted wasn't trustworthy. If that person was someone who had the ability to edit old UI pages at some point without anyone realizing it, the unused /about page could easily have been tampered with so that it could later be cited to undermine confidence in Voat.
Therefore, if we want to get to the bottom of what is going on, whoever first found that page needs to be identified and needs to explain exactly how they found it.
Otherwise, this whole thing -- especially this "confusion" -- just looks like disinfo pushing. We've seen it a thousand times on v/pizzagate since November 2016.
SandHog ago
Heya Vin, as I said elsewhere in this thread, I discovered it by following a link from either the FAQ or User Agreement pages. From what @Deshy linked farther up the thread, this archive from May 24, 2019 shows that it definitely used to link to the 'edon About' page. I discovered it sometime in late November and found it curious so I poked around and found the edon website and not much else.
The next archive is from December 30, 2019 and the links have been changed to their current state.
Which means that the links had to have been changed sometime after I found them in November (around Thanksgiving or so) and when it was archived again on December 30.
I had reached out to Deshy in an attempt to try and piece together the truth in all of this 'drama' and figure out what was really going on because it is blatantly obvious that someone is working hard at running people and communities off of this site and has been for quite some time. At the time, that thread happened to be at the top of her comments so I brought it up when I reached out to her. I also reached out to @MadWorld around then since he knows a ton of the goings on around here.
The most curious thing to me is that someone chose to archive that page in May and then this smear sub was created shortly after and used as an attack vector on @Crensch, srayzie, GA and anyone else who had the temerity to object to what zyklon and his pack of goons was doing.
I posit that the timing of those two things are not coincidental and that the people involved in the creation and operation of that sub have some questions to answer.
Pinging other interested parties: @argosciv @BrennKommando
MadWorld ago
tl;dr: I think someone who Putt trusted or someone from git service edited the now abandoned about page.
So I was digging around and found the following info and reached my own conclusion.
Voat's old footer in-use timeframe: 2015 to 2019-07-13
Voat's new footer in-use timeframe: 2019-07-13 to now
Voat's footer change on devel site:
Voat's voat.co/about page timeframe:
The old footer was updated from voat.co/about to voat.co/content/about after @PuttItOut's coming in hot update. On the devel site, the new footer was set in place between 2-10-06-07 and 2019-06-15. Note that the old voat.co/about page has been there since forever, up to 2019-12 (last known) and the footer has being in-use until last major update around 2019-07-13. It was already decided that the footer would be updated to use voat.co/content/about page on 2019-06-15 or earlier. So the new content was already there, without reference to Edon Garden. It does not make any sense to edit the voat.co/about page to sabotage Voat's own reputation and "expose" PIA as the "angel investor", let alone doing it in an unused page. This stinks a third party's attempt to damage Voat's reputation.
So Voat was "somehow" connected to PIA, via londontrustmedia .com conveniently linked back to imperialfamily .com. But did you know that this imperialfamily domain was rarely in-use?
The imperialfamily domain was originally owned by someone, for the purpose of sharing family connection
It was under construction for a good number of years, between 2002 and 2005. The domain was abandoned and most in park/unused up to 2013-04-12. It was re-purposed on 2008-08-06:
So we can see that for the most of its time, this domain was more or less empty, until around 2019-11-23, where the magic home page was set up, which connected both PIA and Edon Garden. By extension, Voat got connected to those entities via an unused/abandoned about page. Very little info was indexed by search engines, including google. This smells like a setup for the purpose of connecting Voat to now kike owned entity.
Speaking of Edon Garden(edon.garden), did you know that it has a subdomain setup to serve git repository? It has been in operation for 8 months (2019-06-12).
Based on how happy @PuttItOut has been, using PIA as his VPN service at one point, I believe he may have switched his git repo service to fountain.edon.garden as well. So now we have another element in this connection.
So how that unused/abandoned page got changed?! I came up with a few plausible ways:
The now-abandoned page was edited by another Voat user and Putt just updated it without proofreading. I remember that someone was volunteering this work sometime back, to either improve the user agreement page and/or the about page. If it was the about page, Putt would have to copy and edit the content from old page to the new one.
Putt edited it himself. IF he did, why has it not been reflected on the new voat.co/content/about page? And why edit the old page that has not been touched with Edon Garden reference for years?? So that is not very probable.
Given the above connections, Putt may have used Edon Garden's git repository before the update took place. At some point that old about page may have been tempered with, by someone who has access to the repository. This would imply that someone who has had contributed to Voat's codebase, someone who Putt may have trusted, may have added the Edon Garden reference at some point, or someone with admin access from fountain.edon.garden.
The site has vulnerability and someone edited the about page. I would imagine that if someone could do that, he would inflict more damage than just editing some words.
Overall, I think #3 is a more plausible cause of change to that voat.co/about page. But still, who the fuck would change an abandoned about page to sabotage its own reputation and expose its own angel investor? It makes zero sense.
BrennKommando ago
I'm leaning towards option 2 obviously.
If you were a Jew that had bought the company sponsoring Voat would you:
I'd go with option number 3. Compared to Reddit there are a lot of very compelling things about Voat's design after all. If so then what we are looking at is the sourcode being scrubbed for all Voat references and then when things are ready to go the sourcecode is copypasted onto the new site and Voat is abandoned. Voat is in other words only up and running for testing purposes.
That would of course require Putt playing along, but I don't think that is as outlandish as it sounds. For one thing he hasn't been himself since the "builder/destroyer" farce. Secondly I know we probably wont agree on who the idiots of Voat are, but surely we'll agree there are many of them. I think Putt has really good reasons to be really tired of us. Of course he wouldn't really be in a position to disagree if the sponsor requested changes either. Then they would just stop paying and Voat would still be gone.
Also I don't think the connection was ever meant to be found. I of course can't find it now, but one of the statschecked sites had a link between Voat and edon.garden in the google cache, but on the site itself it was removed. That only happens if the siteowner actively request the removal.
And if it was meant to be found how come I was the only one that did? I know others were looking as well.
As far as the imperialfamily.com domain goes it used to be used by the royal Japanese family. I think PIA had some interest in the Asian market, so that's probably why they bought it. They paid good money for it too.
MadWorld ago
Good luck pushing "Voat is compromised" narrative.
Vindicator ago
We don't have the evidence of this? Surely anyone who found such a thing would have capped and archived?
SandHog ago
Damn. That's compelling. I guess the question is: who has keys to the kingdom aside from Putt? If it's not Putt doing it (and him doing that makes absolutely no sense to me) then who is?
All I know is that the link to the 'edon' welcome page was active late November because that's how I discovered it and the archives prove it. As an aside, I wonder who it was that downvoated my previous comment. Surely it was either someone I pinged or someone that has been closely monitoring this three day old thread. That's one thing that Poal has right. You should be able to see who is downvoating you.
Transparency is the best anesthetic.
Vindicator ago
That May 24 archive doesn't mention "edon" anywhere that I can see. :-/
I'm sorry Sandhog, maybe I'm a retard but I didn't see anywhere that archives proved that Voat.co ever linked to the "edon" edited About page. I've looked at about six dozen archives over the past 48 hours (as have @MadWorld and @argosciv), and the archives prove that "edon" was only mentioned on that voat.co/about page months after Voat stopped linking to it on July 13, 2019.
Furthermore, zero evidence has been presented that the FAQ and User Agreement pages ever linked to the About page. I cite these pages regularly when explaining Voat policies to new users in v/pizzagate, and I have never seen hyperlinks to the About page. Nor has anyone shown any Wayback Machine archives of either of those pages showing they were ever linked to Voat.co/about.
If you look at the archives for the day that Putt made the big code update, July 13, 2019, you can see he created new pages for the FAQ and User Agreement at the same time he moved About from voat.co/about to voat.co/content/about. The FAQ and User Agreement pages moved from the voat.co/help/ url to voat.co/content/ url. Take a look:
It's as obvious as day and night that Putt migrated those pages from the /help/ url to the /content/ url and stopped using the /help/url on July 13.
Nor do the archives immediately prior to the url move vs. immediately after it support Voat ever linking to an "edon" page. Take a look:
However, ten days AFTER the July 13 url change when Voat.co stopped linking to it as shown by this Wayback Machine archive from July 23rd, the abandoned User Agreement page was changed to include mentions of "edon".
The live User Agreement page on that day, the one that actually linked from the Voat footer, as you can replicate by going to any Voat page archive of July 23rd and hovering over the User Agreement link in the footer to see the url, doesn't mention "edon" at all.
There was no way to get to the old About page or the old User Agreement page that was changed to include "edon" sometime after July 13 from any link on Voat in the footer, the FAQ or the User Agreement. That's what the archives show.
So, what did you click in late November 2019 as you've said that took you to that page?
November 30 the footer links to /content/UserAgreement. Go to the bottom of that page and hover over the User Agreement link in the footer. There were quite a few Voat.co captures in November 2019, check the footers. For the life of me, I can find no links to it until Nadesh's scrubbed submission.
SandHog ago
Ah, I see what you are getting at now. Looks like I am the retarded one here. I didn't notice that those archives that @Deshy linked were all of the 'About' page itself instead of the FAQ/User Agreement page and simply scrolled down to the bottom and looked at the link to the 'About' page which leads to the edon mention. I guess that would explain argosciv's allegations from yesterday. I did find that page in late November or thereabouts although I don't recall archiving it or anything since I just assumed it was the regular About page at the time. If it wasn't linked from the FAQ/User Agreement pages then the only other way I could have reached it was by playing around with the voat url. Which is a distinct possibility as I was poking around the voat reports url at some point. In any event, I found the page. I didn't say anything about it to anyone until I saw it mentioned in that deleted thread by Deshy via her comments when I was attempting to find some truth in all of this crazy stuff. I took the fact that the thread was deleted as a good sign in that they were trying to figure out what was going on with it and not broadcasting it everywhere immediately like the 'muh Voat is run by PIA jews' clowns tend to do. No clue as to how Deshy initially found it.
That's the sum of my involvement and knowledge regarding the edon stuff. Well, aside from also noticing that the v/AboutVoat smear sub seems to be an obvious reference to that page. If me not remembering exactly how I got to a defunct site page four months ago, or whatever what it was, is enough evidence to convict me of being involved in some sort of conspiracy against Voat then I don't know what to tell you other than confirmation bias is a bitch because it's simply not true.
MadWorld ago
A note for the about page, it was already decided at least way back to 2019-06-15 that voat.co/content/about was replacing old voat.co/about page. So it made no sense for @PuttItOut to edit that soon-to-be-abandoned page.
I would like to point out that something else was also very interesting. The versions of document included an update section, documenting the last action taken. By using tools, such as content comparator, one could highlight the changes made to different versions of the document. You can verify the following on your own:
I encourage users to verify this info for themselves. It is very strange that this document had not been modified for a very long time, besides that minor formatting, and yet suddenly changed all Voat reference to Edon Garden. And yet, no change made to the document's Update section.
I suspect that the admin of the fountain[xx].edon.garden (subdomain of edon.garden, AKA Edon Garden), who has the access to git repo, tempered with Voat's about and user agreement pages. At best case, they only had maliciously edited those two pages. But signs pointed to the worse case, where Voat's source code may have been sabotaged to an unknown state. There were UI changes, SearchVoat's searchbox being gone is one. I suspect this is due to Putt's rollback of the source code to an earlier version. @argosciv may be able to confirm it, as he likes to poke around the UI frontend.
When we were chatting on the previews site, he was happy when he was getting ready to push this major update to the main site. He was even very excited to create a subdomain, soon.voat.co, to test if things break. Then why all of a sudden, he stopped deploying this major update? I believe this was because he detected that Voat's source code was been sabotaged, very likely by Edon Garden's git repository service, the entity that is connected to PIA and KAPE.
I have reached my own conclusion that Voat was setup by those kike owned entities. I do not believe they are Voat's angel investor, despite other shills' constant push for "Voat is compromised" narratives.
https://archive.fo/6IBj0#selection-1929.37-1929.97
@PuttItOut, sorry about the trouble and the kikes' infiltration, if this is the case :-)
argosciv ago
Just for record keeping's sake:
Voat went into login-only lockdown some time between July 29, 2019 and July 30, 2019
@Vindicator
MadWorld ago
And the list of Goat pages:
https://archive.fo/KEyMV
https://archive.fo/cEcyK (application crash error)
https://archive.fo/dP4cB
https://archive.fo/UZeSv
https://archive.fo/YYury
https://archive.fo/KCPrv
https://archive.fo/wbs0F
https://archive.fo/9ctWq
argosciv ago
Heh. "Good times" (sort of).
argosciv ago
@Vindicator's comment:
That VERY archive's footer also shows the new /content/useragreement link... ironic, no?
One more time for emphasis...
So, what did [SandHog] click in late November 2019 as [he] said that took [him] to that page?
MadWorld's comment:
I sincerely disagree and refer you back to this, now more damning than ever, exchange between @PuttItOut and R3BIRTH (who has since been outed as kevdude, and who has tried to claim that they have Putt's blessing and/or was commissioned to investigate – ironically he has done nothing to investigate, instead antagonizing @Crensch with the majority of SBBH & contributing to the "Voat compromised!" narrative, as they had been doing for months prior):
https://voat.co/v/voatdev/3601667/22066275
Nonetheless, we can at least agree that the editing of unused pages was malicious and intended to be a part of creating a new "Voat is compromised!" narrative akin the the previous narrative re: Y-Combinator.
cc: @MolochHunter @EricKaliberhall
SearchVoatBot ago
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SearchVoatBot ago
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MadWorld ago
Yeah his specific objective was to troll Crensch:
argosciv ago
It may be his main pass time, but it's pretty damn clear that he has other objectives too – including the now thoroughly destroyed "Voat compromised!" narrative.
In any case, I'm quite content to close this little chapter, as it has brought several subversive users into the spotlight who I no longer have to play nice with or associate with at all; huzzah for the block button.
But of course, they'll keep pissing in the wind with their "the sky is falling on voat!" narratives and trying to push me out of here or otherwise censor me/turn others against me. Life goes on, Voat goes on, subversives gonna subvert.
MadWorld ago
/s But he "Protects Voat".
argosciv ago
Wanna know what else is funny?
In the last 30 mins, between the two of us, only my comments were downvoted... 'sup with that?
MadWorld ago
Wanna know something else funnier? Check SBBH setting.
XD I think only a few of us know why!
argosciv ago
I'm more interested in the selective downvoting right now, tbh.
MadWorld ago
Yeah they flipped it back.
I think your account is very much marked. But I bet it is because you exposed something they do not like.
argosciv ago
So did you...
MadWorld ago
XD You have fans following you around, I do not.
argosciv ago
That's the point... if they followed me here to downvote because their narrative is kaput, does it not make sense to downvote you for contributing to the destruction of said narrative?
Hell, you did a better job of it than I did here in this submission...
Am I supposed to just boil it down to a personal vendetta against myself only?
MadWorld ago
You forgot that you are very active in PG research, where I have nothing to do with it :-). There may be other elements involved.
argosciv ago
KEK! Yep, they quite predictably even rage downvoted angry Thomas and then the rest of my comments again.
#ARGOSCIVMANBAD!
argosciv ago
D'aww, now they're trying to threaten me in v/anon... last person to pull something similar was none other than ESOTERICshade under one of his larp accounts, rarepeeks.
https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/3686169/22813850/
https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/3686169/22813849/
@Vindicator @Crensch @MolochHunter @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld
argosciv ago
Here's Thomas the Tank Engine going apeshit, posting it for no apparent reason, let the rage downvote brigading flow :D
@Vindicator @Crensch @MolochHunter @EricKaliberhall @kestrel9
kestrel9 ago
That video sucked.
argosciv ago
It was meant to :P
kestrel9 ago
http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2011/09/09/david-tennant-slapped-with-fish-on-radio-show/
kestrel9 ago
I find that comment very "fishy", Sir!
/s kek
argosciv ago
Lol. Yet they have the nerve to question @Crensch's sanity. Funny ol' world, ey?
Crensch ago
Stellar work, bud.
MadWorld ago
On a different subject, apparently doxxing is been celebrated.
Crensch ago
They do seem to love their doxxing and threatening of innocents.
MadWorld ago
I am not sure whoto ping, feel free to do so.
Rotteuxx ago
Got pinged, mustered the bare minimum of interest & motivation to find out what this convo is about.
Confused as fuck @Deshy
What does this mean ?
That doesn't make any sense to me and thus I ain't jumping into this one. You're on you're own.
Vindicator, putting aside fact that I don't like you & you don't like me, nothing nefarious could ever come out ofthat woman. She can get weird & confused but not nefarious.
As far as all this Edon mumbo jumbo, I just hope Voat opened doors for Putt and that he's working on his next platform or something of the sort. I seriously doubt that Imperial Family would bank roll a honeypot even though I think they have a fucked up track record between Kape & PIA, trust issues in those two entities are on another level.
Deshy ago
When I edited the post that next day with everyone’s new foundings, someone archived that new page, I had no idea till yesterday that one can use an archive web address plus an * to get all timestamps. I must have put a wrong archive link in thread, not sure how tbh.
So I thoughts it was lost, overwritten per say but had the copy on my pc which I linked in the article.
Aneeway,
I think @Vindicator is trying to establish how I got to that page. It was a stumble upon so when I have time I’ll dig into it and try retrace my steps.
Otherwise Edon is still very much visible in the code as seen here but a moment ago.
https://files.catbox.moe/wob4ex.jpeg
Yeah catch ya later dude...
Vindicator ago
So this means Voat is using an edon product? Or archive.is is using it?
Deshy ago
Probably Voat but I have had nooo time to dig into it any further...
When I do, I’ll be sure to let you know. :)
Vindicator ago
I would have thought that this would be a vital piece of information to include before posting serious research about the "Edon owns Voat" theory, for anyone concerned in good faith.
Surely it would be straightforward to find out what product "Edon-light" is and how it works and post an explanation?
@argosciv @MadWorld @BrennKommando
Deshy ago
True, thank goodness I didn’t post serious research and it was a stumble upon.
Geez your writing does come over as quite condescending towards me. Is there a reason why, I cannot recall us ever personally having a run in with each other.
Hope your day hasn’t been to hectic and you are doing okay?
I am not a programmer Vin, I am suspecting it’s probably an add-on, but honestly I am not sure. Maybe some techies can delve into the code for us and check?
Laters, gotta run
Vindicator ago
In what way was I condescending? I am making a good faith attempt to understand whether this Edon theory has any actual basis. You posted the main submission drawing attention to it, I assume because you came across evidence that made you concerned. I attempted to make sense of that submission, and ran into:
And when I tried to ask clarifying questions:
This looks like pretty serious research to me. You went to the trouble of documenting some of the path of how you "stumbled upon" the Edon /about page, formatting, citing and copypasting text from various posts...though strangely none of the posts you cited actually linked to the /about page or an archive.org image showing when it was linked to Voat. You left out that key piece:
You copypaste from...somewhere....the text of the About page and then add:
And you provide a tantalizing screencap of....someplace...which we can't identify because the page borders are cropped out. Still no explanation of how you got there.
Luckily, you did remember at 3:55am to add a handy link to the edon About page at the end...a page that Voat did NOT link to on December 30, 2019.
How do I know that? Because if you go to the Wayback Machine capture of Voat for that day, scroll down to the footer at the bottom of the page and hover over "About", you will see that it linked to voat.co/content/about, not the voat.co/about page you added to the end of your submission.
July 13, 2019 at 7:31 clearly shows the About link in the footer linking to the old voat.co/about page.
However, the Wayback Machine for that page on July 12, 2019, the day prior to the switch to the current page, shows no mention at all of "edon". Nor does the capture the prior week on July 6.
In fact, the only voat.co/about archive showing "edon" was the one made on the day of your submission, December 30, 2019. Weird!
You can check all of the archive.today captures. A look at all the Wayback Machine crawls of voat.co/about clearly shows the page was no longer accessible after July 13. Especially if you compare it to the crawls of voat.co/content/about, which replaced it.
You say you "stumbled" onto it -- yet you can't show from where or how, despite having screencapped it and copypasted from it over five months after it was no longer linked from Voat.
This looks like a bullshit operation to me. One in which someone changed an old page that was no longer in use that @PuttItOut would not notice in order to spin a tale to hurt Putt and Voat.
heygeorge ago
Do you have a theory on who and how someone made a change to Voat’s codebase unbeknownst to Putts for the purpose of disruption?
Deshy ago
With Jedi powers perhaps...
argosciv ago
Also says that it was PM'd to her some time between November 2019 and December 2019 (inclusive).
Deshy ago
https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/3686169/22742772
Dude, how do you know this? You seem to know way more then I do about all if this...
Please help @Vindicator to get to the bottom of this.
argosciv ago
Because I've poked around in the front-end code many times over the years, seen a few critical errors, etc. I may even have my timeline off about "edon" being in the scripts anyway, but that doesn't take away from the royal thrashing this "Voat compromised!" narrative has taken.
I already have xD
Deshy ago
Indeed, thanks for helping Vin, so he knows it’s in the code, wonder why he asked me then, oh well... he probably likes you more, lol.
Yeah, sadly Voat being thrashed is a favorite past time for some conspiracy theorists and is a horrible thing.
As soon as I get a chunk of time to potter in the past and see how that page was linked to Voat I’ll let ya know, until then please know I did not create it and you know that Sandhog told me after my post about him finding it too.
Why is Vin not hounding him on how he found it? Do you know?
argosciv ago
LOL! You really shouldn't be thanking me.
Might wanna just stop replying to me.
SandHog ago
What the hell? I've already explained all that I know about that edon stuff, how I found it, and the circumstances surrounding that. All that I have said on the matter is the simple truth and you can either accept it or not but you are way off base in suggesting that @Deshy and I are involved in some sort of conspiracy about this stuff. Furthermore, I find it rather insulting for you to make an accusation like this and not even have the decency to ping me. I didn't downvoat your comment but it certainly is one that is deserving of it.
argosciv ago
No, you didn't lol.
Your 'evidence' is circular bullshit and does not reveal a verifiable chain of discovery. Don't even bother trying to sell that comment as proof.
It's over, SandHog.
I'm going to bed, but do please try to dazzle everyone with something solid – spoiler alert, you already have no leg to stand on.
I now bid a g'night to @Vindicator @Crensch @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld & @PuttItOut.
SandHog ago
You're way off base with your accusations here. I'm sorry that the evidence is not up to your standards. Although, I can't help but wonder if any amount of evidence would be in all of this. Feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary. Think whatever you like but you are flat out wrong in this.
Deshy ago
Agreed!
Sandhog you are an honest man, I truly appreciate that. We will most certainly speak more about this.
I may have some time this week actually :) It’s been a long hard slog in my life so far since we last spoke.
Thanks for being a stand-up guy!
SandHog ago
I do try to find truth in things although sometimes it is a lot more difficult than others. I'm not sure what this stuff is all about or even what it means exactly or if it's important. Mostly, I'm just confused by it. All I know is that I've not done anything wrong and I don't believe that you have either. Something, something, good intentions, I suppose.
Aw, sorry to hear you have been going through a slog recently. I hope things take a turn for the better with whatever it is you have been dealing with! I nearly whacked a chunk of my thumb of chopping vegetables last week so no guitar playing for me for a while. Which is a bummer. Thank God it didn't go all the way through. I much prefer that all my parts and pieces remain intact! It was really close though.
Deshy ago
Oh you, don’t loose a finger!
Dude, let’s just say in the last year my whole world was turned upside down and has been ebbing it’s toe on the brink of this chaos long before that.
Oh well, nevermind it is not relevant to this topic, but maybe.
Yeah same here, I didn’t do no wrong but somehow find a stupid page that was probably a bug or something. It exists and as far as I know only those with access can do stuff like that.
I sat down last night and tried to retrace my steps, pretty much found what Madworld was speaking of.
I am at work atm as soon as I compile my thoughts, hoping later tonight, I will drop you a message.
Take care you Mister! So happy you are here... :)
SandHog ago
I feel ya. It's been the exact opposite for me but comfort and complacency are a motherfucker. Sneaky like a crocodile if you don't pay attention. If I had to choose between the two extremes... I' think I'd rather constantly be on watch for the tiger if that makes any sense at all. At least you are on the lookout for that fucker. Crocs are sneaky sonsuvbicthes. Live and learn...and I'm still learning! Seems like no matter what you are experiencing in life it's a struggle. It just comes in different forms.
Has anyone checked the preview site? Could be that's where you jumped links and reached it. I'm still not sure why it even matters if the page had been phased out. Much like everyone else, I've criticized Putts out of frustration with all of this stuff but I do trust him. He's like the zen master of patience. Near as I can tell most everyone that gives a shit about Voat wants the same thing in all of this. Or at the very least there is common ground to be had. That charity post was pretty epic btw; I saw that. Both funny and also helped a good cause :)
And I'll take that massage whenever it's convenient ;P
argosciv ago
Oh, and a g'night to @MolochHunter. ^^^
Deshy ago
Ninja edits now? No ping just for appearance?
What games are you playing?
Deshy ago
But why?
perplexed look I don’t wanna... huh?
Deshy ago
Okay I’ll try retrace my steps and get back to you.
Thought I’d check if edon is still in the code. Out so on my phone, cannot check f11 right now but yeah when archiving this comment I snapped a photo of the archiving process here
Edon may well just be a add-on for the code.
I get your motives here and I dislike disinfo as much as you. Like I said I’ll get back to you when able to in how I got to that page via Voat when able access a pc.
Deshy ago
^
@brennkommando
BrennKommando ago
Urgh.. Why do I always get into these things near bedtime? :P
Deshy ago
Drag me into too with ya I see... mahn your timing is poirfect I guess, it will all make sense eventually. I hope...
BrennKommando ago
Once the coroner flu have killed all the
Asiansautists we'll get back to ordinary shitposting, yeah? :PPleasant dreams whenever you get there.
Deshy ago
Sure thing... :)
BrennKommando ago
There were a couple of archived links suddenly leading to "404" pages. I don't have any answers but I notices too. Links that I know used to work mind you.. If I put on my tin foil hat it's almost like someone requested their deletions..
You can find a ton of voat links not working if you search @atko's posting history. It's just because things have changed. It is pretty wild when one of the suddenly has a new email address no?
argosciv ago
Still doesn't really explain how you found yourself at the unused "about" page, but it doesn't really matter, because it's pretty damn clear that the whole "Voat is compromised!" narrative is, as usual, bullshit being spewn by the same kind of users one would expect it from – they've been at it for years and are still here to keep at it (contrary to their narrative and claimed distrust of where Voat is at/headed).
Deshy ago
The truth is we don’t actually know if Voat is compromised or not, do we? :/
I think we should make back-ups/archives of all our stuff as due diligence and get alternative options/communication channels available while we can as the whole Internet could change in our future.
Anyway have a good night Argo.
argosciv ago
I'd say it's pretty damn safe when you look at the particulars and those pushing the "compromised" narrative.
That's a given for me and many others anyway, considering what we're here for in the first place.
argosciv ago
Let's ask...
@Deshy, were you the first to find the above-linked cancer?
argosciv ago
content/about has been in use in the footer since July 14th, 2019.
argosciv ago
You do realize that Voat has been using Edon assets/tech since before PIA made any offer to Voat users, right?
The "Voat" compromised agenda has been running under various auspices, from the same people who continue to use this site, for years. Nothing about the claim that Voat's free speech/privacy ideals are under threat has ever held any weight. Notice that people are still free to say whatever controversial shit they want, up to an including spreading fear-mongering bs.
Nobody is stopping anyone from making their backup plans and nobody is forcing anyone to stay on a site they do not trust.
BrennKommando ago
I know it's easy to get tunnel vision, but I'm not part of the fear mongering narrative. There are about 10 of us that have intentionally stayed quiet about this for 2 months precisely because we knew the outcome of bringing it out into the light. Had everything been fine in Voatland it would have remained that way, but we had time against us if things really are as we suspect.
As for the about link I refer to it because it was changed very recently despite not being on the main page.
http://web.archive.org/web/20190207074903/https://www.voat.co/about
And lets have a look at the oldest post mentioning Edon and Voat while we are at it.
https://searchvoat.co/?st=comments&t=edon&b=on&nsfw=on&o=on
argosciv ago
Should have responded to this in my previous comment, but:
Actually, I'm referring to the fact that edon has been in the site's scripts for ages. I've delved into the site's front-end code many times out of curiosity, long before the whole PIA thing, and edon has been present since before then if I recall correctly.
BrennKommando ago
Possibly. But it didn't become a separate entity till very recently. I would never have found the link if edon.garden didn't suddenly have it's own domain. At any rate I think it's nitpicking over an irrelevant detail. There are some solid aspects of Voat's code so that would naturally be reused for a new platform. One I could fear us "vile Nazi's" might not be welcome on.
So you see my concern isn't about Voat being a honeypot or not. It's about having a platform altogether in a world that clearly would like to see us deplatformed from everywhere.
argosciv ago
Wrong. The page is unused. So who edited it and when is very relevant, given that it is being used as the basis for the claim about Voat being compromised over news of the PIA/KAPE merger.
@Vindicator @Crensch @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld @PuttItOut
BrennKommando ago
I assume Putt is still the only one with access so it would be him. I also don't think you are getting what I'm saying perhaps? So PIA despite Jewish relations had accepted Voat as a platform to support because they believed in free speech. When Kape got involved that was no longer acceptable because of the Jews/Nazi's contradiction. However they're not going to throw away technology that could easily be repurposed into something useful. There are a lot of aspects about Voat that is arguably superior to Reddit from a tech standpoint.
Putt being offered the choice of letting Voat die as funding ran out or continue working with it under a new name for a new audience would naturally accept the latter.
It's a theory. There are other of varying degrees of plausibility. I'm still not trying to convince you of anything I could be wrong about. But I am telling you because it could be worth taking some precautions even if you never end up using them. I'm mostly a shitposter I will have no issue finding a new home. The larger majority of Voat will not have it as easy if it comes to that.
argosciv ago
Very broad assumption given that people are able to contribute code and given Putt's last comment.
https://investors.kape.com/about-us | https://files.catbox.moe/0afzp7.png
MadWorld ago
Enjoy the downvotes :-)
BrennKommando ago
If we absolutely have to go there. Since 7/3/2015 I have via @Shumway, @C_Corax and @BrennKommando.
I downvoat posts not people!
Anyway, I have stumbled upon your posts a couple of times and you seemed fairly levelheaded. What's your take on all of this? If you had time to read up on it since it is a bit all over the place.
argosciv ago
That may be the case for you, but others more invested in the "VOAT COMPROMISED!" narrative and connected attacks against the v/pizzagate, v/QRV and v/GreatAwakening (including attacks/"comped" narratives against PG and GA mods) are downvote brigading like mad and have been for at least 72 hours straight.
People being brigaded include but are not limited to: myself, @Crensch, @Vindicator and @MadWorld.
BrennKommando ago
Chill Mr. 17k downvoat's given. I've given exactly 4 voats in this thread. 3 to @Vindicator for courtesy of polite conversation and 1 for @MadWorld in case we might have one. Zero downvoates, not even to you.
I'm sure you can say the same right?
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
argosciv ago
Significant majority in v/QRV, relax.
Nope, not even gonna pretend otherwise, but I don't encourage nor condone brigading.
BrennKommando ago
I just pinged 2 people for the first time in this thread. You?
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
argosciv ago
Interested parties. Each of them knows better than to engage in brigading and knows where I stand on the matter.
Stark contrast to those who have a concerted agenda to push the notion that Voat is compromised.
argosciv ago
T'was expected that they would brigade to some extent, they surprised me a tad with just how obvious they made it though xD
argosciv ago
Yeah and if you look at when that about link was changed in the footer, it's 2 days after the last known archive of said unused about page.
The whole narrative stinks and you should be questioning the source of the narrative and who changed an unused page, when and why.
@Vindicator @Crensch @EricKaliberhall @MadWorld @PuttItOut
BrennKommando ago
Believe whatever you want. I've sourced some information that may be of value to you. Whatever if anything you chose to do with it is entirely up to you.
argosciv ago
Right back at ya. You say you're not part of the fear mongering? Well, you have enough to call your suspicions into question and most especially the reason for changing an unused page.
BrennKommando ago
I did propose it separately from what I knew as a fact. You have to make up your own mind if I'm onto something or not from there.
argosciv ago
Enough of your hand waving. Unless you have an answer to the very valid questions posed, there's nothing for us to discuss.
SirNiggssalot ago
Spoken like a true subversive