I finally found one. At age 40. We tried for the babies but it was seemingly too late. Sigh.

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I canr my arguement in favor of MGTOW.

An analogous idea is that buying lottery tickets isn't worth it. I'm not denying that lottery winners exist. I'm just saying it's unlikely my ticket will win. I'm saying that I probably shouldn't organize my life around imagining a future where I win the lottery.

Excellent.

"Good" MGTOWers are men that have voluntarily withdrawn from the pursuit of romantic relationships so to align there life with inward virtues. Many critiques can be raised about the current state of the sexual marketplace in technically advanced--liberal countries. What is most demoralizing is, there is no way for new cultural customs to develop. This wisdom-less situation is a good example of "cultures do not change, people just grow old and die." "Bad" MGTOWers are men that were pillaged in divorce and now advocate to young men to be more than weary to stagnant social convention, instead of being adaptive.

Men and women are often seen as incompatible in their social dynamics, interests and perception of the world. Men and women are complimentary. Its the differences in mating strategies in one population of men and women and another population of men and women, which causes conflict in this technically developed and socially liberated, scaled world. Short-life-history people do not like children and long-life-history people do like children. Short-life-history people primarily procreate haphazardly, whereas long-life-history people primarily marry haphazardly. That is not to say either lacks foresight, just one prefers to life fast--die young and the other has a different understanding of risk. Marriage is not overwhelming compatible with people that fuck like rabbits and also is not necessary to raising children.

Although informal marriage was once the joining of two families, it is now a formal state enforced contract of two individuals. (1) The pair-bonding of a man and woman is beneficial for the two involved in the medium and long term as well as externalizes during and after their lives. Contemporary society promotes promiscuity, weakening pair-bonding. This is unfavorable to short-life-history people as they may benefit from multiple pair-bondings over the course of their life rather then nil bonds. I.e. a short-life-history pair may part ways after the children grow up. (2) Pair-bonding is worth the risk, when accounting for the risk of inaction. Namely, not having a family or too few close relationships. In general, all contractual agreements should be negotiated in the frame of "in case of disagreement...".

I do not agree that there are more marriageable men than marriageable women. Men value low promiscuity, which is common place in society and women value status/provision, which is absent, bar extremes, in a globalized & developed society. There is little incentive to overlook the lack of value for the future dividends. However future dividends can outweigh immediate value. So medium to long term relationship building over marriage is advised. Generally speaking, dumb people are going to fumble when negotiating relationships and smart people are going to price themselves out. Obviously some concessions need to be made when the average person pairs up. The white-pill is that contraception is approaching idiot proof and people that do not like children are not having children. So in the future a better social understanding will eventually develop between sexual relationships and the scaled world.

Bonus: Advice to young people, you'll definitely be old one day. How will you stay relevant after you retire?

tl;dr: I think I've argued that having children out of wedlock is a good idea and developing a relationship with a woman for future emotional support for foreseeable life events is a good idea. The keystone is probably, don't be born dumb or born short-life-history minded.

At some point in time I changed from Blue Pill/Egalitarian to going my own way, due to being presented with coherent arguments against Marriage. It is the rational motion when new information becomes available.

The same could happen with MGTOW: Self-actualization means focusing on myself first and foremost and at its ultimate conclusion even going against MGTOW - if rational arguments disprove it. And we have in fact some issues:

Statistics

We harp on about how terrible marriages are by citing the 46% divorce statistics and correctly noting that some marriages are unhappy (for example due to "cheaper to keep her" preventing the divorce).

That is all true but MGTOW tend to omit the bright sides, that marriage is a great enhancement if it works out with your wife. That there is some financial gain & tax breaks. And that within the 46% divorce statistics are padding serial divorcees or people with other mistakes that you can avoid and make marriage better. Lastly, some divorces are amicable. Not all end up in court with the woman taking your cash.

This goes for news articles and social media as well. We see some crazy court ruling in Australia here, an unfair #MeToo Lawsuit in California there. Or the occasional rabid feminist blog posts. But the world has billions of people, so it is easy to find tons of whatever you are looking for. It is not proof that those cases are representative of how events usually transpire.

The other part I contest is Reductionism.

.

Ants simply process a simple chemical reaction, all they do is smell Pheromones and follow where they lead. If Pheromones are sprayed in a circle, Ants will crawl around until their death. But at the same time, this devotion enabled Ants to be the most widespread Species of Insects with 10 Quadrillion Inhabitants.

.

MGTOWs argue against the worth of wives by distilling their deeds into parts, and how supposedly low value they are.

Cooking, cleaning -> "Cheap labor, easier to do yourself or hiring a cleaning lady".

Childcare -> "Nanny + Surrogate is much cheaper, and does not sue you for Alimony".

Sex -> "Just jerk off to Pr0n, just get a Hooker. She is not worth it, attraction is an illusion of chemicals in your Brain!"

I entertain the possibility of it being wrong, that entangling with women is more than the sum of their parts just like ants as a whole are more successful than their weak mandibles and simple pheromone system.

Is the above convinging to stop going my own way? Of course not! Evidence against marriage dwarfs those points. But I believe it is healthy to consider opposing viewpoints every once in a while instead of circle-jerking reaffirming stances 100% of the time.

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I haven't seen mgtow offer any real help to men. The worst thing a man can do is listen to another Jew give relationship advice. The fact is me the fact is men or operating from a subordinate position in life. Meaning you don't own property. If you don't own property you cannot have jurisdiction over your relationships. You can't show the woman the door when she doesn't behave. Women like strong men not weak sniveling mgtow motherfukers. The Jew has robbed your parents and you from owning property. If you are living under a woman's roof and she's paying the rent, you are fucked. If you are living in an apartment and you are sharing rent, you are fucked. If you are working some shit fucking job you hate that pays dirt fucking wages, to pay the rent you are fucked. Do your boy babies of favor and don't get them circumcised. That way you will have happy grandchildren.

Circumcision is a Jewish hex against gentiles. Unfortunately America Is In Too Deep.

The problem is most men are circumcised. Because they are circumcised they cannot properly satisfy the woman in the bedroom. By circumcising a baby it causes brain damage. It causes trauma. It breaks attachment between the mother and the father, because the father didn't protect the baby and the mother. The baby will always have a deep psychological imprint of mistrust. Circumcision breaks attachment between the man and the woman because the foreskin secretes bonding pheromones. The foreskin makes sex pleasurable for the woman. Most women do not like sex with a circumcised man. They find it uncomfortable. The guy has to pound harder to get off. Which means her pubic bone is usually bruised. That's not what gets the woman off. It's not the size which can be uncomfortable for a woman, it's the way the foreskin rides on the clitoral notch. That's what gets a woman off. Not the size of the cock but the foreskin. So yes it is a Jewish Problem. If men cannot seal the deal in the bedroom, their relationship will probably break up. Jews did this to gentiles. So yes it's a Jewish Problem. There are other social problems that come along with circumcision such as you are now a lesser of a man. So symbolically you will always take the back seat to a woman. This is why women are exerting control and influence over men because they don't get the foreskin. I know this sounds wacky to most guys but this is the truth. This idiot above left the comment. Don't listen to him. He's probably a fucking Jew.

I'll play

To start with, you need to understand that "it's what jews want!!" isn't an argument. It's a claim.

It is the truth. I will not provide evidence as to it's validity as evidence is easily found in the study of Jewish subversion through history. The attacking of family units is always their first step.

Is my claim any less valid than yours?

Seeing as you just pulled it out of your ass, yes

An analogous idea is that buying lottery tickets isn't worth it. I'm not denying that lottery winners exist. I'm just saying it's unlikely my ticket will win. I'm saying that I probably shouldn't organize my life around imagining a future where I win the lottery.

This is not analogous in the slightest. You don't go through a vetting process with your tickets, spend years getting to know and understand the tickets and court them into marriage. You do not enter a marriage on a risk/reward basis, you enter because you know you have a winner. Viewing it as a lottery and that one might win is a coping mechanism for your poor vetting skills.

But okay, if you want to argue against MGTOW, then you need to come up with an argument that (1) dating and marriage will benefit me

You immortalize your genes by having offspring through procreation and participate in k-selection by having a good woman rear your children into ideal, well adapted examples of our species.

(2) that those benefits outweigh the risks. If you don't address the risks (or you dismiss them by saying, "lol just marry a good woman") then you're not making a good argument.

Sure, you always run the risk of one of you dying or becoming unable to care for your offspring, that's a natural phenomenon that's exacerbated by industrial society. As I've already addressed in your lottery analogy, you do not have offspring with a woman in a risk/reward manner. Ultimately, if you've reached this phase of marriage and suddenly lose the respect or control of your woman, it is due to your shortcomings as a man. The risk/reward is directly correlated to your ability to vet potential wives during dating and your ability to be an ideal man.

there is no shortage of marriage-worthy, marriage-minded men. There's a shortage of good women, but there's no shortage of good men.

Perhaps if you have never found a good woman or was never able to keep her, you aren't the best person to judge what a good, marriage-worthy man is. Anyhow, this part makes me chuckle a bit. Mgtows always talk about how women are malleable and usually see them as less for it. When in fact, if your claim of there being a shortage was true (it's not, you are valuing your personal experiences as evidence here), then a good, marriage-worthy man should be able to hone a woman into the ideal - essentially increasing the number of good woman to his needs.

If you could snap your fingers Thanos-style and turn every single MGTOW man into a card-carrying, jew-hating white nationalist, and you could set every single one of those men on a mission to find a marriage-worthy white woman and have 20 white babies with her, do you know what would happen? The number of white families would increase by precisely 0.

Your shortcomings are your own, no need to project your failures unto this fantasy. Did you even think this through at all? It is not logically sound in the slightest.

So if you really hate jews and want to save the white race, and your cunning plan for doing that is convincing MGTOW men to marry, you are an absolute fucking idiot. There are currently too few marriage-worthy women for the existing men. You're a fucking idiot if you're wasting your time trying to add more men to that mix.

Your defeatism betrays your façade of being a worthy man.

If you actually want to help the white race - if you're serious about that - then you need to go talk to women. Make /v/traditionalwives more popular. Spread that message.

Do it up fam, no one is stopping you. But spreading those messages outside of Voat would be much more productive.

If you actually want to help the white race, you're wasting your time talking to me. I'm not the problem. MGTOW isn't the problem. If MGTOW goes away, that wont fix the problem.

Mgtow is a problem because it suckers in young men that haven't even come to understand their shortcomings into believing the issue is not with them, but with the lack of women as you keep repeating. They then turn to woman bashing, never once considering how a woman actually completes a man. They see themselves above woman, simply by virtue of having a swinging dick. It robs these young men of the drive to improve themselves and rise up the sociosexual hierarchy.

If you do these things, you will get women. If you waste your life with video games and pot, you'll achieve less.

What the fuck. You just invalidated your entire argument here.

Went up to camp with my dad this weekend, split a bunch of firewood for the rest of winter. Worked hard, felt good.

Taking it one day at a time.

The first thing that stood out to me was your comment about whores and nigger babies, this is voat, nobody here would go near that. It's not even remotely comparable and is retarded that you'd even mention it.

Our claim has vast amounts of evidence, what has your claim got? At what level of evidence does a claim become a fact? And again, this is fucking voat, not Reddit, we wouldn't go near used up whores.

You sound like a Reddit cuck. I suggest you edit this shit to be less cucked.

I don't care if you get married, I don't even care if you keep the relationship going. What I will say is that you have failed if you don't carry on your bloodline and teach them well. Ideally you'd get two or three kids, if need be get custody of them, ditch the girl and raise them right. She'll now be unwanted but you'll raise kids better to replace her and society grows stronger and your genetic imperitive has been completed.

Marriage since the 70s has been a risky scam. I wouldn't recommend it unless she has much more wealth than you and owns the house and good luck with that being the case.

From what I have seen of MGTOW, it is about finding your own focus in life, and not putting women first. If you develop yourself, develop interests and succeed at what drives you, women will follow. I'm not convinced that is a bad strategy.

Progeny is legacy. Need a womb for that. A decent woman who is right for you is hardto find and often difficult to pleasein the long-term, but will lead to a legacy.

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I don't like the lottery ticket analogy, it implies such helplessness/useless on the part of men. The only option to increase my chances of winning is buying more tickets (or in the analogy, meeting more women). I can't take your bonus advice to increase my chances of winning the lottery. I can never persuade or teach a losing lotto ticket to be a winner. I can't read lottery numbers for red or green flags that indicate winners or losers.

As mentioned by others procreating is really the main goal of life, but also you want your offspring to succeed, not just exist. You can't even ensure their survival if you spray and pray, so you need to stick around and raise them. Marriage has been been shown to be the way to best raise successful offspring. Marriage also increases male health and wealth (while doing the opposite for women).

MGTOW seems to me to be mostly either a fear of failing or anger at having failed. With the latter it is really hard to convince people that they had choices and made wrong ones, especially when there may be no second chance. MGTOW is a lot of men pointing out splinters in women's eyes while ignoring the log in theirs.

I think there are pretty equal non marriage worthy men and women at the moment. The difference is men are the influencers. The matriarchy is only controlling culture because weak men are letting it happen. Women naturally want to follow men, when they reluctantly have to lead they get bitter. If men aren't being man-whores expecting sex before marriage there won't be sluts abound. If men stuck around and fathered/educated their daughters there would be more debt-free virgins without tattoos. If young men/boys stated and acted as if they wanted D-FVWT girls would conform to that mould.

This is getting long. I guess to oversimplify, marry a good girl or mould one, don't marry the type who gets divorced and you won't get divorced raped. Choose a good woman and life your life will be much better than not having a partner at all. The odd of different risks and benefits are not random but what you make them.

Men shouldn't be in relationships to have their needs met. They should first be self sufficient and satisfied being single and pursue their work and talents. Once satisfied with himself, then think about finding a wife to start a family.

So sick of romance movies portraying a conquest of desperation seeking someone else to meet your needs.

Kids. Anything else makes you a loser. Your genetic line dies and every single thing your ancestors did for the last 50,000 years becomes worthless. You're nothing but a self-absorbed, selfish waste of space.

Not that I mind. If you're too much of a fucking beta to tame a woman, your line probably deserves to die. Too many losers in the world as it is, we could use less of them.

*Disclaimer : sorry for the format I'm on mobile.

MGTOW is a genetic dead end to your family lineage and is therefor counterintuitive to your biological instincts to procreate and build a family. I understand that MGTOW is a reaction to the social and legal injustices of men that have been expedited by feminism so the symptom is more organic than most opponents would attest against. Most men turn to MGTOW because they already married, procreated, then got unfairly ruined in divorce, thus they simply bow and excuse themselves from a perversely flawed system where the only way to win is to simply not play. With this phenomenon occurring simultaneously with the dreadful (and also counterintuitive) movement known as feminism, the paramount structure that suffers most is The Family Unit. With this damaged society seldom produces decent functioning human beings. Single mothers are undoubtedly the worst thing to befall on society and MGTOW does absolutely nothing in amending the disaster. Good, strong, intelligent men are not reproducing and if they are they get financially raped by divorce and have their relationship with their children inconveniently interfered with. This is not how you build a functional society. Now I'm not going to discuss the glaring problems we already have regarding blacks, gays, Jews, etc. because what ultimately matters is the preservation and protection of The Family Unit. All MGTOW is doing is leaving its post. I can't tell you that marriage will benefit you or that the risks are worth it. The laws regarding so are unfortunately compromised. What I can tell you is that good women are out there and finding one and starting a family with one is the most rewarding and noble things a man can do for both himself and society. We need traditional roles for men and women because they are the glue of The Family Unit. And children need BOTH heterosexual parents. We're all aware of the damages gays do to children and how damaged society is when women are married to the government. You said it yourself when men better themselves they often attract women with little effort. Find a good one and make her better and she'll do the same for you. Feminism is just a large collective shit test. It takes a strong man to attract, tame, and even save a woman (along with society) from the plague of feminism. Be a strong man. You owe it to your ancestors.

so beta...

there are plenty of worthwhile women. become the worthwhile man they'll want to marry and go get one. it's really easy.

• Source: Married white guy with lots of little blonde children.

Is my claim that Jews want whites to die childless more valid than your claim Jews want you to get married and have lots of kids? Yes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feminists_by_religion

But that wasn't your claim it seemed, your claim was that Jews want whores propped on pedestals, which is true. Those whores result from feminism as well, they aren't the traditional women we are telling you to find.

As for benefits, for you you get to raise a family and have someone take care of you in your old age, you will understand true love and accomplish the only goal living creatures have, to carry life on. But consider this, you aren't the only person in this world, by having kids and raising them well you help your neighbors, race, and family.

As for risks, well you know the risks, if you find a dumb chick whose parents and you couldn't get to behave well, you're fucked; you should be able to tell pretty early on if you find out all you can about her. However trading kids for a hedonistic lifestyle GARUNTEES that you die sad and lonely, it's not a risk, it's a promise.

If I may ask two questions, how old are you? And if you plan on letting your ancestral genetic line come to an end, what do you plan to do instead of having a family?

Whine moar faggot.

It honestly sounds like you people met 1 or 2 women and simply settled for them and then ended up having a bad experience. You probably meet all your women at bars, on dating apps, or some other place degenerates hang out. There are good women out there. Unfortunately for you, you gave up on the search. And the jews wanting this isn’t just a theory. They want all white men single doomer gloomer black pilled.

But hey I don’t give a fuck. If you want to empower yourself and do all the red pill shit without the need or want from women then I applaud you. We just don’t need more sob stories and gloom around here. There’s enough black pills being spread and it leaks.

So far it's

OP - 1 : Others - 0

MGTOW are adult men who don't want whores who's orifices were ravaged by other men. Teens who try to pose as MGTOW are demented, since they have plenty of virgin females around to marry and live happily forever together.

Slaves fear the world.

Pussies get fucked by the world.

Faggots fuck over the world.

Real men conquer the world.

MGTOW are nothing but slaves, pussies, and faggots.

Be real men and change the world.

Nah, we don't have to explain any of that to you.

Now, fuck off back where you came from.

We're full.